If styling doesn't matter how do you explain this...

MES · Jun 8, 2002

If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Cars produced per year

----Viper ZR-1
'90 zero 3,049
'91 zero 2,044
'92 285 502
'93 1,043 448
'94 3,083 448
'95 1,577 448
'96 1,887 zero

Both cars were priced about the same, had similar performance, 1/4 mile, top end, etc. Yet look what happened to the ZR-1 as soon as the Viper come out. It went from 3,000 per year to 500 hmmm wonder why, could it have been because of the way the Viper looked? Then guess what? The ZR-1 stopped production.

Now that that lesson is learned look at this

----Viper GT-40
'03 1,500 100
'04 2,500 500
'05 750 2,000
'06 550 2,500
'07 zero 3,000

As the old saying goes, learn from the past. Two similarly priced cars, both close to the same performance, one looks like a normal everyday car and one looks very radical. Is this the fate of the new Gen III Vipers? Is there room at that price point for two American supercars? Does the styling make one bit of difference? Learn from the past and explain why the "normal" looking ZR-1 sales took a dump when the Viper came out, then try to explain away why the "normal" looking SRT sales will not take a dump when the GT-40 comes out? Is Ford going to do to DC, what Dodge did to GM during the early 90's? Me thinks so

CAS · Jun 8, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Interesting #'s MES, interesting indeed... Thanks for that

.

SRT10 · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

MES...Interesting #'s but here's some thing to ponder. The latest Car & Driver (Corvette 50 anniv) has a little article on the ZR-1. It was an option priced 22K over the standard Vette making it a 50K++ car (more than todays C-5s')way back in 1990.
If styling is so important, as you say, how does GM sell over 30K C-5 Vettes every year and you can still find 2001 Vipers untitled for sale at dealers lots? What you call the "normal" looking car is outselling the "radical" car over 7 to 1!
Also comparing the SRT to the GT-44 isn't fair because some people like convertibles over hardtops.Many here have said they would buy the Comp Coupe if it was made street legal, the next GTS. I like open air driving and wouldn't buy a GTS or Fords "kit car" the GT-44. Thats why I like the SRT & look forward to driving it. Now I'll get off my soapbox and toss my $.02 into the ring.

:

MiamiJeff · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Actually SRT10 and Mike both make good points. Standard issue Corvettes sell more and have a different demographic. IMHO, that's why Dodge intentionally mellowed out the outrageous look of the snake to try to snare away some Corvette people and a few more woman buyers. I have doubts however, as to how many almost-Corvette buyers will be found (male & female) that want to up their ante by $30k for the snake rather than say, going for a 911.

Hope I'm wrong, but I think Mike's projections might be closer to reality. Meanwhile, I'm hoping the performance will knock my socks off , making up for the far less aggressive looks and, while it's around, be a fine winter car down here!

onerareviper · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Oh SRT10, you must be a rich man. You state,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
If styling is so important, as you say, how does GM sell over 30K C-5 Vettes every year and you can still find 2001 Vipers untitled for sale at dealers lots?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, for us common folk, this is the reason.

2002 Corvette Coupe MSRP - $42,350.
2002 Viper GTS MSRP - $73,000

Over $30,000 difference in price, not to mention gas guzzler tax, luxury tax, and over all sales tax. Plus higher interest paid on car loan due to the amount difference. Nearly double the price when all is said and done, if not more. Pretty good reason, ehh? The Vette is one ****-a-va car for the $$$$. No doubt.

Later

P.S. - Oh yeah. Higher insurance rates on average as well.

P.S.S. - OF COURSE styling matters. It is probably the MOST important factor for sales. Eventually, Dodge WILL HAVE TO do one of the following: Change the styling of the SRT10, or produce a street legal GTS. One of the two will happen in the next 4 years, that is my prediction. Don't forget, Dodge said it has no intention of offering a GTS. Hopefully, they will be forced to change that mindset.

Mike Brunton · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MES:
Cars produced per year

----Viper ZR-1
'90 zero 3,049
'91 zero 2,044
'92 285 502
'93 1,043 448
'94 3,083 448
'95 1,577 448
'96 1,887 zero

Both cars were priced about the same, had similar performance, 1/4 mile, top end, etc. Yet look what happened to the ZR-1 as soon as the Viper come out. It went from 3,000 per year to 500 hmmm wonder why, could it have been because of the way the Viper looked? Then guess what? The ZR-1 stopped production.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MES,

Your argument doesn't hold any water IMO.

First of all, only about 300 Vipers were made in 1992, yet Corvette ZR-1 production dropped about 1,500 units. I dont know if you remember 1992 for the Viper, but they were selling for up to and over $100,000. I don't think there are any people who decided not to get ZR-1's and get Vipers instead, because Vipers were simply not available. Also, Vette production dropped 1,500 units, so how could 285 Vipers have accounted for that?

Second of all, the reason the ZR-1 was killed was because EPA rules were going to cost alot to conform to for OBD-II, and it was not feasible to redesign the car since it had always been so low volume. GM's contract with Lotus/Mercury Marine was coming to an end so they took the remaining number of engines, and divided it among the years they had left until OBD-II requirements, and made that many ZR-1's each year.

We could just as easily say the Z06 Corvette killed the Viper GTS - but would you agree with that? We could say after only 2 years Dodge lost so bad to the Vette that they gave up on performance coupes, but I don't think we'd agree with that.

Finally, who is to say the looks of the ZR-1 were what hurt it in relation to the Viper? Why didn't it lose sooner to cars like the Lotus Esprit (a much more radical looking car), or the Acura NSX that looked alot more radical? It seems kinda self-centered to assume the Viper was what killed the ZR-1. Alot of things caused it, one factor was probably the Viper, but it wasn't the major factor - not by a long shot... and it probably wasn't much of a factor at all, IMO.

As for the GT-40, I think it will be different enough not to hurt SRT sales. If it's slower than the SRT, I won't buy one. And if they're the same, I'll take the convertible.

Frank 03SRT · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

If styling mattered, as defined by Gen 1/2 Viper, then why aren't they selling? Worse yet, the Final Edition isn't selling--look at the adds and dealer e-mails. You'd think the Final Edition production would have sold out a couple days after it's announcement -- sort of like what happened to the SRT and what I hear the GT-40. Gees, there's only 360 of them. Where are the buyers?

It must be that the general population (which Dodge must sell to for business reasons) has grown tired of the current Viper. Sure it's purdy, but maybe they don't feel like parting with that much cash for a "crude-mobile". Further, if the new stock of Vipers isn't selling, wouldn't that negatively effect the price of used Vipers?

I've always heard that change is good. Maybe that is the case now. It's just that many of us "crude-mobile" lovers didn't expect as much change as the Viper is seeing. Time will tell if Dodge is correct.

MES · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>SRT10:

The latest Car & Driver (Corvette 50 anniv) has a little article on the ZR-1. It was an option priced 22K over the standard Vette making it a 50K++ car (more than todays C-5s')way back in 1990.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was my point, ZR-1=$50K Viper=$50K both american front engine rear wheel drive, both close in performance, yet one sold and one was discontinued.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>SRT10:

If styling is so important, as you say, how does GM sell over 30K C-5 Vettes every year and you can still find 2001 Vipers untitled for sale at dealers lots? What you call the "normal" looking car is outselling the "radical" car over 7 to 1!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and what's the radio of GEO Metro's 500 to 1? oh, yea forgot the price thingy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Mike Brunton:

First of all, only about 300 Vipers were made in 1992, yet Corvette ZR-1 production dropped about 1,500 units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Add '92 & '93 together = ~1,500 back in '92 everyone knew that the '92's would be very limited in production, so guess what? People waited 6 more months for the 93's to come out. Even then there was a pent up demand for the cars, look at the 94's.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Mike Brunton:

Second of all, the reason the ZR-1 was killed was because EPA rules were going to cost alot<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they had been selling 3,500 cars per year GM would have made the car compliant. The car was killed because of low sales. Meeting EPA requirements was not economically feasible (due to low sales) so the car was killed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Mike Brunton:

We could just as easily say the Z06 Corvette killed the Viper GTS - but would you agree with that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep I WOULD agree with that! Look at the price difference between the two cars, then look at the performance difference. Again I'm comparing cars with similar prices (i.e. Gen I Viper & ZR-1) in my original post. What do you think the sales of the Z06 would be if they cost $75K each? Yep, almost zero, and why is that? hmmm couldn't be because the Z06 looks like a "normal" car could it? Oh, nooooo styling has nothing to do with car sales, yea right.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Mike Brunton:

Finally, who is to say the looks of the ZR-1 were what hurt it in relation to the Viper? Why didn't it lose sooner to cars like the Lotus Esprit (a much more radical looking car), or the Acura NSX that looked alot more radical? It seems kinda self-centered to assume the Viper was what killed the ZR-1. Alot of things caused it, one factor was probably the Viper, but it wasn't the major factor - not by a long shot... and it probably wasn't much of a factor at all, IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't think the ZR-1 competed directly with the Gen I Viper and the Viper as not a factor in it's demise, then you must be from another planet or something. The demographics (Read: DEMOGRAPHICS=same potential buyers) are the same for the two cars. The lotus, NSX, were not bought by the same type of people. Oh, sure I know some have both an NXS and a Viper. However there was, and still are, far more people that go -> hmmm should I get a Z06 or a GTS then there are people that go -> hmmm should I get a NSX or a Viper. It's called the demographic of the buyer.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frank 01GTS:

If styling mattered, as defined by Gen 1/2 Viper, then why aren't they selling? Worse yet, the Final Edition isn't selling--look at the adds and dealer e-mails<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Z06 and it's $25K lower price tag, that's why the GTS's are not selling. Plus the last year for any model is very tough to sell.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frank 01GTS

It must be that the general population (which Dodge must sell to for business reasons) has grown tired of the current Viper. Sure it's purdy, but maybe they don't feel like parting with that much cash for a "crude-mobile"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is 100% true and that's why Dodge decided to make the Gen III a couple of years ago. The current Gen II Viper was losing it's edge in performance and technology, so a new design was and still is needed. Imagine if the Gen II was never made and the Gen I with it's 400 HP plastic windows, leaking top, and dated suspension were still being made today. I bet DC would not even be selling 500 cars per year. That's because of the new competition and technology that has come on the market over the last 5 years by other car manufactures.

King GTS · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Excellent info! Very interesting!

Lee00blacksilverGTS · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Nah..trust me guys...I've owned 26 Vettes..this was a Vette issue only. They built a car that looked almost identical to the standard car and then wanted TONS of money over the standard car. If you were a serious Vette guy you ordered option B2K from the factory and your car went to Callaway for twin turbos and neat bodywork and you chuckled every time you saw a ZR1. It had nothing to do with the Viper. Heck, in 92/93 you simply could not get a Viper anyway, all presold, especially 92.

Lee00blacksilverGTS · Jun 9, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Just looked up the old options..ZR1 listed for $31,683.00 vs. Callaway twin turbo $33,000.00 1991 list prices. Callaway option was like the factory sending your car to Doug Levin with the proper authenticated order codes for originality, very important then and now to the Corvette hobby. And once your car was there you could call Reeves and get ANYTHING done to it before delivery, very custom but yet an original B2k car for documentation. Even closer price in 1990, ZR1 $27,016.00 vs $26,895.00 for Callaway. For those of you really into this ZR 1 stuff, production looked like this...
1990 3,049 $27,016 option cost over base coupe cost $31,979
1991 2,044 $31,683 option cost over base coupe cost $32,455
1992 502 $31,683 option cost over base coupe cost $33,635
1993 448 $31,683 option cost over base coupe cost $34,595 1994 448 $31,258 option cost over base coupe cost $36,185
1995 448 $31,258 option cost over base coupe cost $36,785

Also remember that the C4 corvette was intoduced in 1984 and everyone in the Corvette hobby was hoping for the wonderful C5 as early as 1990, history now tells us it came in 1997. So a lot of guys were waiting for the C5 instead of getting the ZR1. Production numbers and pricing is from "the corvette black book" by Mike Antonick. Nov 1997 edition. There is a very dedicated bunch of owners who call themselves the ZR1 registry you can link to from Corvette Forum I think.

Mike Brunton · Jun 10, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Mark,

Will you PLEASE get your facts straight? 10 years ago I was in 10th grade!!!! (no kidding)

MES,

Good points - but I disagree about the competition between the Esprit/NSX and the ZR-1. ZR-1's weren't as fast as GTS's, and I think people absolutely did decide between Esprits and NSX's and ZR-1's - I know several who did or who owned one of each.

As for the Z06 killing the GTS - hmm, I don't think so, just because I know alot of folks who have Z06's and not one of them was a potential Viper buyer. There seems to be a magical price point just a tad bit above the Z06 that folks don't want to cross. You can get a Z06 for $47k brand new but the Viper is a good $30k+ more than that. Figure most cars nowadays cost around $30k, so a $15k premium for the average joe for a cheap supercar ain't that bad, especially considering he can drive it daily with no troubles. Add in another $35k on top of that for a car that plummets in value when the mileage crosses $15k, and is not much of a daily driver, and I think the cars hit totally different markets.

I think the ZR-1's main problem (remember, I was big into Corvettes back then) was that it looked just like any other Corvette, carried a *huge* premium price, and didn't perform all that much better, and when you spend $65k, you want something unique (a la Esprit or NSX, or even Supra Turbo).

Steve Ferguson · Jun 10, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

This design was approved under Jim Holden and Tom Gale.

kverges · Jun 10, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

All this GT40 talk!

I think the car is great, but if you think it will be comparably priced to the Viper, DREAM ON. Ford is not building it in-house (HUGE WIMP-OUT), but will source it through Saleen and/or Roush. Saleen's Mustang is comparably priced to the current Viper; they'll never bring the GT40 in for under $100K, and you can put me on record with the GT40 ending up over $125K and probably nearer $150K.

So hold out for the GT40 if you will, but price/performance ratio are unlikely to compare and you definitely have a wait on your hands.

I've had my gorgeous, unique and irreplaceable RT/10 for over 8 years now and I have to say that having a daily-driveable replacement with a quantum leap in performance will hopefully be salve for the fact that any change could not make the car better looking.

agentf1 · Jun 12, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

As info I bought the Z06 instead of the GTS. If the Z06 did not exist I would be in a GTS right now not a coupe or convert C5. Keep in mind that I plan to add a GTS or SRT10 next to my Z in the garage soon if things work out for me so this may have played a part in me choosing the Z first. Point being the Z has effected GTS sales. I think if they were closer in price (Z more expensive or GTS cheaper) things would be different. Most people when buying a toy like the Z06 or GTS would opt to save 35K and get something that is very close in performance, especially in this economy. So for me it was finances over styling.

Viperfreak2 · Jun 12, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Money over "really want"......not me. I'll save up for something I really want to have. Yes, I really want a 360 Spyder. The Viper will have to do until then.

Joseph Houss · Jun 12, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by agentf1:
...Point being the Z has effected GTS sales. I think if they were closer in price (Z more expensive or GTS cheaper) things would be different. Most people when buying a toy like the Z06 or GTS would opt to save 35K and get something that is very close in performance, especially in this economy. So for me it was finances over styling.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, now you've done it! Absolutely UNTRUE! Z sales have NOT affected GTS sales. EVERY VIPER BUILT BY OUR FRIENDS AT CONNER AVENUE, is sold. There has never been a need to slow down the plant. And now that our classic style GEN2 Snakes are winding down, I betcha there will be a frenzy of "late bloomers" that will be pounding down the doors at those Dodge dealers that happen to have "the last few new original styled Snakes!".

agentf1 · Jun 13, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joseph Houss:
OK, now you've done it! Absolutely UNTRUE! Z sales have NOT affected GTS sales. EVERY VIPER BUILT BY OUR FRIENDS AT CONNER AVENUE, is sold. There has never been a need to slow down the plant. And now that our classic style GEN2 Snakes are winding down, I betcha there will be a frenzy of "late bloomers" that will be pounding down the doors at those Dodge dealers that happen to have "the last few new original styled Snakes!".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, in my case the Z didn't actually take a GTS sale away but delayed it as I hope to be able to swing both soon. They really are in 2 different price brackets. I could see somebody that couldn't quite afford a Viper that was saving for one getting a Z now instead waiting until they could afford the Viper since the performance is so close. Again I think the lousy economic times we are in now would contribute to this behavior.

Mike Brunton · Jun 13, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

People who buy Z06's are NOT people who would buy Vipers. They are people who always owned Corvettes, and who wanted the latest and greatest.

I would be willing to bet that more than 1/2 the Z06's went to folks who were trading up from a C5. These are folks who would do little mods to their cars for performance, but realized how much better and faster of a car the Z06 is and went that route instead.

The $30k premium between the Z06 and the Viper is very significant, but moreso is the fact that a Z06 with 40k miles is normal, a Viper with 40k miles is very rare (and plummets in value), which magnifies the cost difference even more. Just about all the Z06 guys I know have it as their only car, or their daily driver. I don't know anyone who has a Viper as their only car and very very few have one as a daily driver.

kverges · Jun 13, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

Mike,

Count me as a person who (1)daily drives, rain or shine, his Viper GTS; and (2) may get a Z06, too (I have a modified C4 and the Z06 weight advantage and over the portly Viper and ease of modification are very interesting). I think the Z06 is a factor in the Viper's marketability. Bump the Z06 to 450 hp and take away the Viper's amazing appearance and the nod probably goes to the Z06. One of the reasons I don't have a Porsche or BMW is the price/performance ratio sort of insults me, and the teutonic cars are not exactly drop-dead gorgeous. At least the Ferrari has the ultimate automotive sex appeal, followed very, very closely by the Viper. I think the latter may be gone with the new SRT and it will be interesting to see what effect that has on sales in the long term (short term the frenzy will sell all they can make).

I plan to daily drive the new SRT, if it has all the performance expected. I pray that Automobile mag's informal numbers are way, way off the mark! I will be positively crushed if the new car performs like the GTS, because then it becomes a poseur car IMO and if I am going to drive a poseur car, it better be a Ferrari.

Fingers crossed here and patiently waiting the new supercar from Dodge.

Black SRT · Jun 13, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

deleted

This message has been edited by Rick Martino on 08-08-2002 at 09:25 PM

SRT10 · Jun 14, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mark O:
I keep reading in here how it's supposed to clean house on the track, yet you can't race a ragtop on a track without some sort of roll cage. Someone suggested putting a hardtop on it, but I have yet to read about someone making a roof for it. From what I understand, I'm sure that it will be a superior handling street car, but for you guys who want to track the car, what good is it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but I'm

?? Weren't all GEN I Vipers RT/10s'? What was done for the track with the early Vipers and why would it be any different now? Also, I've read that the hardtop for the SRT will be available 6 months after production starts.

91ZR1#661 · Jun 14, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

The Viper\GTS certainly did not kill the production of the ZR1.
From what I gathered at the ZR1 conventions,the ZR1's demise
was set in stone before 1995(last year).Low sale's were the
major factor in ending production.And the ZR1 was not intended
to have a long production run.They knew the C5 was coming out
in 1997.And the LT5 motor was never intended or designed to
go into the C5.The ZR1 was closer in performance to the original
R/T 10,but in no way was or is close to the GTS.I have driven
a ZR1 and it is a great car.It has an outstanding motor,sounds
like no-other street car,but was always a little on the heavy
side.If they could have made the ZR1 around 3100-3300 pounds,
it would have been a exceptional performance car.Some of the
ZR1 owners I have met also own Viper's,and all were very nice.
95yellovett

GTS Dean · Jun 14, 2002

Re: If styling doesn\'t matter how do you explain this...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kverges:

...and patiently waiting the new supercar from Dodge.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite true, Keith. Only someone who has been thru this exercise on new Vipers several times can say that.

If styling doesn't matter how do you explain this...

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Former VCA National President

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

Similar threads

Forum statistics

Share this page