Irresponsible Leadership

[97 Viper GTS]

For those of you in the know, you will see a post by an officer (not just one of the many board members, an officer), publicly saying the VCA raffle is "illegal" and their raffle (oh sorry, door prize) is somehow legal and NOT elitist.

You would think after nearly 2 years these guys would pay more attention to their own game than someone elses. I also like how he implicates himself in "illegal" raffles in the past.

But hey, this is the same group that put emporer marshall in control of the VCA, and then thought it would be a great idea to create another club that does the same thing with a declining customer base with emporer Maurice in charge, not the brightest bulbs here, especially when they open themsleves up to legal action so readily.

Anyone can look into it, the VCA raffle is as legal as I can see, and the VOA raffle is dubious at best (and of course uber elitist with a track record of awarding board members the prize out of a small number of people who were forced to participate and show up at an event), but it certainly isn't a MORE legal forced raffle -oh sorry door prize.

Amazing, no wonder they are in dire straights, inflating financials, inflating membership numbers, they just have a crap track record in running things.

 

[ViperJeff]

To be honest here......

I don't really care what they think. There will always be some kind of post over there that is mis leading or just plain wrong. It's like watching Hillary Clinton teaching a class on truth and integrity.

I normally don't like these kinds of threads as there tends to be no up side, however, we are determined to provide a place for respectful discussion without heavy handed censorship. I will now pray for civility and forgiveness for what really goes through my head

Jeff

 

[Nsane1]

Like you Jeff, I came here to delete this post because it was flagged (thanks to the flagger). However, as luck would have it, the post in question was forwarded to me. What we have is a high ranking officer of the other club committing libel and defamation against the VCA with the intent to do financial harm. This happened at VOI, and it happened at the last raffle. We now have a pretty clear case for significant financial damages due to this behavior.

We have stayed silent, but anyone with any experience in these matters knows that if you do not act to protect yourselves, you lose your ability to seek damages.So we have no choice but to begin to speak up, the "high-road" is simply letting the other entity think we are going to sit back and continue to be financially harmed by their libelous activities during our open raffle:

1) The raffle is completely legal. We have an attorney who specializes in non-profits who is actually our agent in MI assuring us our activities are legal. Do you think this attorney would risk being disbarred for something as trivial as a non-profit raffle?

2) We have had 2 raffles this year with a license from MI. If the first one was illegal, would we be granted another?

As a non-expert, and non-amateur, I put my trust in the experts I surround myself with, over a bunch of propagandists with an axe to grind with a storied history of non-profit mismanagement.Like you, I find it hilarious that they would commit libel, while at the same time implicating their entire team with past "illegal activities" but what do you expect from the team that left the VCA in shambles.

So since the officer has opened the door, we talked about VCA raffles, let's talk about door prizes:

A) Is it illegal to take a $500 event, inflate the price by $300, put $150 towards a car and $150 towards the treasury? If proper gaming authority is obtained by the proper jurisdictional authority, and all participants notified that they are partaking in gaming, why wouldn't it be legal? Is that's what's happening? There is nothing wrong with being open and honest that these are fundraisers, any attempt to obscure that fact is disheartening

B) I loved taking part of the VCA raffles, it went towards a good cause, and I had a small shot at a cool prize. I gamble, I'm cool with the fundraiser, not everyone likes to gamble tho, I understand. If their events are fundraisers, awesome, why not be completely transparent about that fact? Why do they try and analogize this with a trinket?

C) Old VOIs ran at a profit, I found this out not too long ago. I was pissed because it was never disclosed. I probably would not have gone had I known I guess. I believe Viper events should NOT be a forced fundraiser. It's a car club, if we are forced to fund an org WHILE we have fun with our car, it is a conflict of interest for a CAR CLUB, especially one that sends funds to directors/officers/good buddies.

The fact that you don't find these questions there (while you find quite a bit of discussion about our raffle here and there) either means this dialogue is being suppressed, or the kool-aid is awesome over there.

Just to be perfectly clear, it would be an amateur move for me to portend to have a legal opinion on the other groups fundraising activities, so I don't have one, I do have a personal opinion, and I also have an obligation to protect this 20 year old organization against financial harm.

Greg
P.S. Yes our current financials are filed (check guidestar), yes we disclosed how much we made on our last raffle publicly here, and yes we ran the last VOI at a loss.

 

[Free2go]

I'm sure Granger will be weighing in on the situation here shortly....

 

[Viper X]

As Greg states above, we did find a way to do car raffles legally. It took us almost a year of working on it and we used the most experienced raffle lawyer we could find, and it was not inexpensive.

It does appear, however, that the other club has not yet figured out how to do raffles legally, so they are telling their members that our raffle is illegal. I have referred their comment to our raffle lawyer for comment. I'm sure he will have a response.

Also, as Greg states, most of us here are pretty tired of turning the other cheek.....

 

[ROCKET62]

This is an interesting post and brings up many different points for discussion. It could get ugly in many ways - and I will try to remain civil in my discussion. Full disclosure - I was a member of the VCA for 10 years, been a member of the VOA for 1 year, and took off one year as my personal protest to the shenanigans that were happening during the split.

I did not agree with the VOA door prize concept in place of a raffle - (maybe sour grapes on my part since I could not attend - btw). But contrary with the the OP states - no one was forced to go to the NVE event. Was it a great prize for those that could attend - absolutely - but no one had a gun held to their head to attend - if you did not want to pay to attend or thought the price was too high, or did not fit into your schedule - simple don't go. Is it an over the top attraction to attend - absolutely - and if/when I attend NVE2 I certainly hope to drive home that awesome door prize.

Please ... let's not even bring up marshall or what the real cause of what the demise of ONE VIPER CLUB was ... enough said. And it is a real reach to blame the VOA leadership for leaving the VCA in shambles. When you had Chris, Marv, and Lee in power to do whatever they wanted - almost unchecked ..... well. And yes I do have copies of emails/pm's saved showing attempts from each of them threatening my membership when I questioned some of the things happening long before the implosion.

Regarding the current and past VCA raffle. Current raffle is a great concept, and great attempt to build membership. I applaud the E - Membership category. But bottom line ... will enough tickets be sold to award the grand prize? 1900 seems like an ambitious goal based on the fact that only roughly 400 tickets were sold in the last membership. It also has the appearance of being a big money grab. I suggested paying the taxes for the winner based on the huge profit the VCA would make IF the raffle actually awarded the Viper. Again bottom line from my perspective - will a Viper be awarded - if not it's a joke.

And while i hesitate to address the OP's last sentence - it is such a ridiculous statement, I can't let it go; "Amazing, no wonder they are in dire straights, inflating financials, inflating membership numbers, they just have a crap track record in running things". I have never seen more transparency in financials or how things are run than with the VOA. Are things perfect, no - but certainly more transparent than anything I witnessed with the old VCA. I live in Phoenix. We have a very active chapter, and a good group of leadership. If I was a member of the VCA - there would be none of the events I am able to partake in. Also, as I visit both websites regularly, my feeling is there is much more activity on the other website - sorry just my observation.

And Greg, I do think it's a real reach on your part to imply that the intent of the post in question - which is a very non-descript thread buried deep was to "committing libel and defamation against the VCA with the intent to do financial harm".

Basic fact of the matter is we now have two factioned car clubs. Neither is as strong as the old VCA. Would we be better off as one club - in my opinion - yes. Can it happen - yes. Would a lot of the strong personalities involved during the implosion on both sides need to step aside - yes.

 

[Free2go]

We send over our best warrior, VOA sends over theirs. Cage match in Vegas MMA style. Whoever wins takes over both clubs.

 

[Viper X]

Response from our raffle attorney:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"The raffle is legal and has been for the past 15 years when it's been conducted by your organization.

Chrysler participated with in the origination of the first raffle which I set up. The winning ticket was drawn at Chrysler headquarters. Chrysler provided it's public relations firm, JRT, to conduct the raffle, handle taxes, reports and compliance with federal and Michigan regulations. I advised JRT and worked closely with them to make certain that the raffle was conducted properly and in compliance with the rules of the Michigan charitable gaming commission.

There was never any question from The Chrysler legal staff, the state of Michigan nor your members concerning legality of the raffle.

I've been conducting nonprofit Michigan raffles nationwide for the last 25 years. This is an area of my expertise. I have a position paper on the subject but you should not be attempting to meet the complaints of people outside your organization. The raffle is none of its business.

The raffle VOA conducted was probably illegal but ours is not.

It is licensed in Michigan, the raffle is conducted in Michigan, we file reports and audits with Michigan and our records are audited and the drawings are often attended by a state inspector.

You are in compliance with federal law and US postal service regulations. Article 4, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution requires every state give full faith and credit to contracts and laws of another state. It is a constitutional right.

If any member of your organization wants clarification I can provide a position paper on the subject. As far as strangers to VCA, what you do is none of their business.

Whenever I hear someone say I've talked with the lawyer and he has said so-and-so, I view that is code for their actually making it up to support a position that has not been vetted by a lawyer.

On another subject you will have received, or perhaps have received, a letter from charitable gaming concerning the inspection of our last raffle. It is not a report but merely a receipt. You do not have to sign it not send it back in. I talked with the inspector today and she confirmed this."

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dan

 

[GRANGER73]

I'm sure Granger will be weighing in on the situation here shortly....

Thanks for the invite.
It was a cheap shot. I know there were legal issues with the last raffle under the leadership of the 4 morons, but that's water under the damn. To make the claim that the current VCA raffle is illegal without providing one scintilla of evidence to support it is totally unfair.

 

[ROCKET62]

And so OP - how about full disclosure on your part? Interesting that you are a non-member from "Dallas" with so few posts since joining in 2005? Care to share and update that you're really from KC and not Dallas? Oh - interesting that one of the centers of all the **** was from KC!

 

[Bobpantax]

Let's not get carried away. One person, Alex Ristovic of Arizona, made a post. Regardless of his title with the VOA, I do not believe any other VOA Board members backed him up. The post appears to have been removed suggesting that the VOA Board took remedial action. Whether or not the VCA decides to take legal action against Mr. Ristovic individually is another matter which the VCA Board should consider. Mr. Ristovic's post appeared to be carefully crafted with the specific intent to do harm to the VCA; malign its current Board members.; and alienate its current members. In any other context, the behavior would not be tolerated and a suit would be filed. On the other hand, if he apologizes and buys a few raffle tickets, that should do the trick. He can become an E member.

 

[GRANGER73]

The post appears to have been removed suggesting that the VOA Board took remedial action. Whether or not the VCA decides to take legal action against Mr. Ristovic individually is another matter which the VCA Board should consider. Mr. Ristovic's post appeared to be carefully crafted with the specific intent to do harm to the VCA; malign its current Board members.; and alienate its current members. In any other context, the behavior would not be tolerated and a suit would be filed.

Post is still there. I'm sure it was more of an "off the cuff" remark. Nevertheless, was in poor taste.

 

[Bobpantax]

Thanks Granger. If the post is still there, please consider the post above amended to suggest broader action. There is no excuse for allowing a false statement to remain on the site.

 

[Nsane1]

You're right this is distasteful, but it ***** when you get bullied for 2 years and the bullying never stops, sometimes you have to punch the bully in the nose.

To refute the "this is an off the cuff remark" or the fact that the actual person in question here wrote us saying the other group "only plays defense", and react to anyone's saying "oh Greg is merely aggrandizing"

1) You can find several threads on that site by board members saying "the VCA inflates its membership numbers". Our financials bear out our numbers (over 1000 for 2 years now), and the number of magazines we print further proves out these numbers.
2) You can find several messages on their site prior to VOI 13 from their board members, including "COTA has told us they are only allowing parade laps" (I guess I had 170mph parade laps). There is a whole thread thrashing VOI with express intent to reduce attendance
3) You can find several messages on their site about our last raffle from their board members saying "the raffle is illegal" "they are crooked" - again with an expressed intent to reduce our raffle sales (and then when we don't sell enough, they write we are "crooked" for doing a 50/50)
4) You can find literally dozens of rants by their board about the VCA, on various topics.

All of these are just a sampling of the lies intentionally spread by the group to harm the VCA.

This is not a one-off rant by a one-off person. It is the continuous, defamation, slander, and libel against the VCA with an intent to due harm by board members of the other group. It is current, and it is on-going, and has been going on for 2 years. All of these posts have been saved as the occur in case they are needed. We can easily prove financial harm, and are actively pursuing action per our counsel's recommendation. We have not done so for 2 years, as this only hurts everyone, but after 2 years, we're done being pushed around by a bunch of bullies, who can't come to grips that we have as many members as they do, are more cost-efficent, and more importantly, aren't going anywhere.

And thanks for the comment Granger, you have proven you can be objective on many occasions, I don't want that to sound as condescending as it comes across, but it is appreciated.

 

[97 Viper GTS]

Aww rocket, I'm sorry you have to fall back on the low-information debate style of attacking the poster. Poor guy. I've been pretty clear I am no fan of emporer marshall, and you're not mininmizing me by saying I'm that dolt. Why don;'t you tell us what position in the VOA you hold sir? See 2 can play that game.As to your attack that I am manufacturing data. Did you actually look at the financials? You call that transparent? Ummm, you really think it costs that much for a magazine? You really think saying you have 1800 members and then print 1200 magazines is transparent? Greg said it right, the kool-aid must be awesome.The reality is you shoudl point this finely tuned intellect of yours into the organization that has duped you and everyone else.

 

[Free2go]

It was a cheap shot.

You usually comment on affairs such as these (which I enjoy reading) and I preempted you. I don't believe I have a history of "cheap shotting" you.

 

[broomrider]

Guys, as a new member I know I've probably not earned the right to be heard. A penny for my thoughts though. When I bought my car I had a choice of which club to join. I chose this one and I don't regret it. I don't exactly know all the inside and outs of this great divide that has come about. One thing we all have in
common, " both clubs I mean" is the love of our cars. That's what should be important. Not bottom lines, pockets being filled, backs being scratched, raffles being legal or illegal. Life's to short. Let them have the club they left to create and their comments.

 

[GRANGER73]

You usually comment on affairs such as these (which I enjoy reading) and I preempted you. I don't believe I have a history of "cheap shotting" you.

I was referring to the post by the VOA individual as being a cheap shot. I have no issues with you.

 

[GRANGER73]

Post is still there but it has been edited.

 

[Bobpantax]

Alex apologized. Here is what he said:

"First off, we would do a raffle - we just don't have a way to do one at this time and ensure that we do it legally. Others may be doing one, and I'll apologize for saying it's illegal, I don't want to discourage anything that's tied to the Viper. I wish them the best of luck. We'll keep our eyes open for possibilites. It's not an "I won't", this is an "I can't". Enough said.

 

[ViperJeff]

I guess its a good thing I didn't delete the thread

 

[Mark1107]

I joined both clubs! I wants as much viper stuff as possible being an old c7 z06 who converted to 2 gen V vipers this year plus a hellcat! I sold the Vette. Long live the Viper! ( I hope FCA is listening...)

 

[Schulmann]

To be honest here......
It's like watching Hillary Clinton teaching a class on truth and integrity.
Jeff

LOL, best every comment very good !

 

[Free2go]

we're done being pushed around by a bunch of bullies, who can't come to grips that we have as many members as they do, are more cost-efficent, and more importantly, aren't going anywhere.

And one month later we have leadership wanting to throw in the towel and merge for "survival". Hey MoparMap, you got upset about the Viper "doom and gloom" threads. What'd ya got to say about the VCA leadership wanting to merge with the Village People?

 

[Nsane1]

Waaait a minute, who said anything about throwing in the towel for survival? What news am I missing? Perhaps something leaked from a conversation that started from the VOA 3 months ago. What happened was this:
1) I received a call from a present VOA board member where we discussed the current realities of both our clubs, how we have duplicate costs, duplicate events, and each event is missing key people. It was a cordial call, we were frank and honest with each other and I promised I would go to the VCA team and discuss our groups talking together
2) the VCA put together a very quick meeting that weekend, where we agreed we would "hear them out"
3) I created an NDA and was about to setup a meeting with that individual to get broader buy in at the VOA and have them execute the NDA when pretty much when I as about to hit send...
4) None other then king-ego himself got wind of this, basically shut the door on the whole thing, saying there will be no "backdoor deals" (as I noted we had broad approval here on the VCA side) and said and I quote "we're receptive to welcoming your members to join our club, should they wish to, so we can reunite the Viper nation under the VOA umbrella."
5) I had to go back the VCA team, look like a complete schmuck, because trust me when I tell you, there was no agreement to just have everyone join the VOA

So that's where this stands today. The VOA, for 2 years has had a policy of saying "blow up the VCA and join the VOA." There has never been a willingness to make changes to the 20 year old organization that is the VCA, form a new org that doesn't have any of the history of either one, or some combination thereof, it's been "convert or die."

Our mantra has been that the VCA had problems that need to be fixed, we don't believe you just throw something away because it's difficult, an organization is just made up of people. We feel that instead of fleeing, starting a new club, and setting the old club ablaze was a cowardly (and actionable) act from a few with self-interest and bruised egos. It resulted in harm to the membership, people losing passion for the car, lost sales, and dare I say it, the death of the car. Yes I said it, Maurice, and a few others, because of their outsized egos not only killed the club as it existed, they killed the sales of the car due to a policy of shaming owners and putting a car club and drama ahead of actual owners, and as a direct result killed the car.

So you think we're going to reward that behavior by throwing in the towel and joining the VOA? I might have a month ago (and believe me when tell you I would have been among a very small minority), but King-egos email to me solidified my, and others opinion against that.

So worry not free.

 

[Free2go]

The potential cease of production will no doubt cause a paradigm shift in the way the club is managed. One that should be met with serious austerity. How about looking to club membership for solutions before appearing conciliatory and weak by secretly meeting with the other club? If no non disclosure was signed, please enlighten me on how this meeting (if successful) would benefit all the paying members here who have no desire whatsoever to join the other club? Hell, I was basically banned over there counting coupe for this club. Let's cut to the $hit...how's about we let four or five windbreakers get flushed down the commode before we let four or five hundred PAYING members? And as a paying member, I would appreciate being privy to the kind of "back room deals" mentioned by the VOA Cruise Director up there^^^. I would have put a stop to that $hit too.

 

[Sybil TF]

Wow! Interesting...

 

[broomrider]

Wow! Interesting...

Secret meetings. Hmmmm this is the kind of stuff movies are made of. Such treachery. Every club I've ever been apart of has always had s**t. I guess that's what makes it a club. Maybe this stuff happened the way it did so that there could be a "fresh" start. At least for now. Let's move forward not backward.
I agree with Sybil TF, wow.

 

[CWhiteRun]

Free2go has some serious inside info. Dude!

 

[broomrider]

The potential cease of production will no doubt cause a paradigm shift in the way the club is managed. One that should be met with serious austerity. How about looking to club membership for solutions before appearing conciliatory and weak by secretly meeting with the other club? If no non disclosure was signed, please enlighten me on how this meeting (if successful) would benefit all the paying members here who have no desire whatsoever to join the other club? Hell, I was basically banned over there counting coupe for this club. Let's cut to the $hit...how's about we let four or five windbreakers get flushed down the commode before we let four or five hundred PAYING members? And as a paying member, I would appreciate being privy to the kind of "back room deals" mentioned by the VOA Cruise Director up there^^^. I would have put a stop to that $hit too.

I have to say I'm glad that the s**t that almost happened was stopped.