Lets Get Real , DC do something now,, No More IGNORANCE

[King GTS]

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Originally posted by 1bad gts:

OTHER than the GT-40 the Viper is King.
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Boy would that ****! All evidence so far points to the fact that theirs a new "Bad Boy" on the block. It's very discouraging to say the least.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

I propose the 2005 S/C-GTS nuff said

 

[King GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSchillinger:
One thing is for certain: the 1992 Viper was several magnitudes above the competition. Now, the havenots have had ten years to catch-up, and they have. Dodge needs to leapfrog them yet again with a FACTORY SC or turbo unit. A factory forced induction car would have devastating horsepower that no one could touch. It would be the dream car of every car nut out there yet again. For a few thousand dollars more in parts, Dodge could produce something that no one, at any price range, could touch for years. When the GTS debuts, it better have forced induction (and this may be the plan, since the SRT comes with a keyed crank, right?)

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Excellent thought Bryan! Why not Turbo Charge em'? TT Viper straight from the factory.

 

[TacDoc]

1Bad, was that a standard Lightning pulley used to replace the stock pulley, and did you run the qtr with the new pulley.

 

[TacDoc]

Please don't take this the wrong way, my Vipers are loved, but OH YEAH!!!

 

[King GTS]

We can't just sit back and allow this to happen.

But then again, what in the world could we do anyway? The more I think about it, the GT-40 just might be a SNAKE KILLER. No the GT-40 IS DEFINITELY a SNAKE KILLER. Unless somethings coming from DC that we don't know about. Anyone on the inside know what's in store for us???

 

[SmokinV10]

The way it stands, we are doomed. Im ready to drive around in a blown Viper. However I really think it stinks that everyone is going to think that even a basically stock stang can keep up with my $75K car. To add to the pain, the GT-40 is basically going to roast, toast, dice, chop, and mutilate the Viper. Gen I, II, or Stratus we are screwed. It shouldnt come down to owners needing to supercharge. At the $75-90K entrance fee of the Viper, PVO can do better. If ford can do this, and do this with a mid-engine, car, so can PVO. Ford has proved that they can make a more exotica car (look at the doors, vents, rear hatch,..everything) for the same amount of money. Its lighter, flashier, and faster. If there is a list for the GT-40 sign me up. I love my Viper, at the same time, Im not ready to be 2nd. If i wanted a car just for looks, I would have bought a used ferrari. Its got the prestige, looks, handling. But the Viper can stomp on it. We bought the viper to be the fastest, and look good at the same time. If I cant be the fastest, whats the point?Wake up DC, Wake up PVO, the blue oval is about to make a joke out of you!

 

[TacDoc]

Like most cases, the insurance industry will probably end up being the limiting factor. What company will insure an OEM 700 hp sports car.

hmmm, maybe my Viper needs a bumper sticker that reads "My other car is a 03 SVT Cobra"

 

[King GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SmokinV10:
The way it stands, we are doomed. Im ready to drive around in a blown Viper. However I really think it stinks that everyone is going to think that even a basically stock stang can keep up with my $75K car. To add to the pain, the GT-40 is basically going to roast, toast, dice, chop, and mutilate the Viper. Gen I, II, or Stratus we are screwed. It shouldnt come down to owners needing to supercharge. At the $75-90K entrance fee of the Viper, PVO can do better. If ford can do this, and do this with a mid-engine, car, so can PVO. Ford has proved that they can make a more exotica car (look at the doors, vents, rear hatch,..everything) for the same amount of money. Its lighter, flashier, and faster. If there is a list for the GT-40 sign me up. I love my Viper, at the same time, Im not ready to be 2nd. If i wanted a car just for looks, I would have bought a used ferrari. Its got the prestige, looks, handling. But the Viper can stomp on it. We bought the viper to be the fastest, and look good at the same time. If I cant be the fastest, whats the point?Wake up DC, Wake up PVO, the blue oval is about to make a joke out of you!

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I'm not ready to be 2nd.
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I agree 100%. I won't be 2nd!

 

[Daffy]

TacDoc,

I'll be getting that bumper sticker. Based on the articles I've read to date on the 03 Cobra, I'm in. My Volvo C70 convertible goes up for sale this weekend to plan for the Cobra purchase. With 111 mph trap speads & mid $30K price, not to mention the mustang great aftermarket support, I must have one.

I want my SRT, but I'm also wondering where it'll fall on the food chain in the next 18-24 months. Considering where the Cobra performance is, where can we expect the GT40 performance to be, yeow, we already know the looks are magnificent. I too don't want to invest in the SRT to be second best in a close group of third, fourth, etc, and be the duck to the GT40 swan.

Dave.

 

[MES]

All great points but one thing about the GT-40 which is still not known is the performance on a road course against the SRT. I think the GT-40 will hand the SRT it's asp there as well. It's lighter, lower, excellent breaks, just as much power and I'll bet Ford is going to make one killer suspension for the car.

So to sum-up -&gt; SRT verses the GT-40
looks - lose
1/4 mile - lose
road course - lose
power to weight - lose
cost less - lose
whiners - win (we told you so)

 

[TacDoc]

I started in the Late 80's with 5.0 LX's, and it looks like I am coming full circle. It sounds like the rumors of cheap aftermarket changes to bring the 03 Cobra to 500 H.P. are true. The SRT has the H.P. to weight advantage, but lighten the Cobra hardtop and look out. I bought my 01 Cobra conv so I could haul the family in something sporty, now it will be replaced with the 03 conv due to the H.P. increase. The hardtop will make make a great Solo 1 car, much cheaper to shod it than the Viper. Unfortunately the RT/10 no longer fills a nich. With the SRT being a convertable, and the GTS the Viperdays car looks like the RT will also go.

 

[Snake]

I agree with everything you guys are saying. Hell, I want the new Cobra myself, but some of the stuff I just don't believe.

440 RWHP????

The new 2003 Cobra has a 390 HP rating at the engine. That's (assuming 15% loss through drive train) 330 RWHP.
This is at 7.5 lbs of boost! Those Eaton superchargers aren't Vortechs, most are run at 6-8 lbs of boost. I think the 2002 Lightning pulley provides 8 lbs of boost(assuming its the same blower). 440 RWHP is about 515 BHP (at the engine). Realistically, its doubtful you will get 50HP from a chip and pulley before a reliability sacrifice comes into play (either on the blower or the engine or both). Other mods can will be necessary to maintain both and achieve more HP gains.

Half a pound of boost and a new chip will not get you 515-390=125 HP, you are going to need a few more bolt-ons.

Of coarse, as the Mustang guys say, for the 45k difference, you can afford more than a few mods, but there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[Daffy]

I've seen two reports of new Cobra dyno runs, both were in the ~370 rwhp range. Assuming these aren't ringers, that's a nice baseline. One group did an exhaust mod and got 400 rwhp, reportedly. Now being a mustang guy, having 5 stangs over the last 14 years (2 cobra's), all supercharged, I do believe that with that baseline, getting into the low to mid 400hp range at the wheels is doable .. safely. All I can say is there are alot of serious cars that should prepare for bad news in the Mag comparo's, and some folks who should be prepared to see 5 new letters in front of them at the track C O B R A . I'm looking to solve this issue the easy way, develop the ultimate snake bit, SRT next to the Cobra. That's the easy thing to imagine, doing it of course is tougher. What I don't know is if the GT40 is a new evolution of american sports car, then will one side of my garage change again in 2 years.

Dave.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Enough of this "dream talk"!

At the SAE dinner John Fernandez got up in front of all the GM, Ford and DC participants and told everyone that, "we are thrilled that everyone has targeted Viper as the ULTIMATE performance pinnacle. And we welcome all of you to TRY and catch us."

Wolfgang Bernhard then got up in front of everyone and said, "If you guys think we are going to stand still your wrong. I am telling you now that we are going to kick EVERYONES A$$!"

Later at drinks, Neil Henniman (the head of GT40), outnumbered 7-1, but still among friends, sat there and said that "I am excited about the position, but believe me we are a long ways away from an ACTUAL streetable car." At that point, good old boy racer Herb Helbig chimed in and told Neil, "hey when you need to benchmark that thing, call me at work or at home and I will meet you on any corner in Detroit so you can see how much more you will still need. Oh yea, make sure you bring a PINK SLIP!". Please note that at no time were any of these statements made in any anger, but rather they seemed to be in total glee. The three PVO guys listed above, and the rest of the leadership involved are all on the same page. I think they are actually looking forward to beating up on something other than their own vehicles.

These my friends are the only FACTS available that evening. To that I say I was prouder than ever to be associated with the PVO Team. Everyone can be the fastest on paper (911 TT comes to mind, always a second at any track event I have been at) but when it comes down to put up or shut up,I will stick with a team that everyone is TRYING to catch verses one doing the chasing. Maybe instead of worrying you should all get excited? For the first time in the ten years of Viper we might actually get some real competition! I guess it ***** being the Yankees of the Sports car market, NOT!

 

[Viperfreak2]

Did anyone think about a propane nitrous system on the SRT-10? Sounds like for under 2K we'll be smokin the pulley tricks. And who said the 500hp figure was set in stone? What happened to all the 520-530 ACTUAL hp. After the cobra screw up at ford a couple years back, I think every sports car maker is conservative with the figures. The bottom line...things are heating up in the horsepower wars and I LOVE IT. Until someone makes a 700hp fuel cell electric car.....

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Bad, are you not the one who said, "I have a good friend who knows Coletti, and there is no way they will build the GT40."? I have owned a Viper for 9 years and nothing in it's time has ever been REAL competition. So until someone ACTUALLY produces something, I don't see this extreme urgency you are referring to. Please refrain from your "$25.00 pulley" comment, since it had appeared on almost every post you have submitted the last few days. Production is production, modified is modified. If you take a Civic and put Nitrous on it that to could run with a Viper. I think this is what is commonly known as making a mountain out of a mole hill? And if you are speaking "facts", then please show me a GT40 that can make one pass down the strip? Would that not be a fact?

Let's face "if the Queen had balls she would be King." LOL

 

[SmokinV10]

Vipermad,
The sky has just started falling. I'll keep you posted

 

[Joseph Houss]

Joe (1bad)

....ENOUGH ALREADY! We get your point... and in 2 years or so, when this "Collabelli GT40" comes out, we'll find out, but your getting incredibly redundant....especially for a happy and FAST Viper owner!

 

[pauls]

Just got my Mustang and Fast Ford with the "Drag Test" of the new 03 cobra. It only went 12.67 at 110 at Englishtown. They said in optimum conditions it was good for 12.5s. That's not much of a threat!

Any car can challenge a Viper with enough mods, pulleys , chips, gears,look at the rice burners. But his one isn't going to be one out of the box.

Hell Pontiac is going to re intro the GTO with an LS 1 in a rear drive Holden. Things are getting serious again.

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

Take a ****** man, I don't want to get beat either, but it ain't gonna be built for 2 years. And they have already said it may not look like the prototype. It has to be a lot taller they said. How much does the current T bird really look like the 57? Heck, how much does the SRT look like the GTS, maybe they will decide to emasculate the thing to sell as many as Corvette, sound familiar? Old rule of drag racing "there will ALWAYS be SOMEBODY faster. Bottom line.. we are blessed to be living in another "Golden Age" of high performance automobiles, in which tecnology has advanced to the point where the manufacturers are once again engaged in a horsepower race. WE are the folks that benefit. Name cars from the late 70's or the 80's that came any where close to the performance we can buy off the showroom floor. I love the fact that this will force DC to UP the power in the Viper, and probably will influence them to build the coupe as well.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Why is everyone so upset about all this?

I have been accused of being an SRT apologist in the past, but I don't think that's true - and here's why:

Because if Ford makes a GT-40 that looks good and outperforms the Viper - my SRT will be up for sale - simple as that.

I'm not so loyal to the Viper that I wouldn't ever sell it. I want something that is reasonably priced and fast as hell. If DC doesn't keep ahead of the GT-40, then they will lose sales. The SRT will always have it's place, but I don't know if they can consistently move 1,500 units a year on looks and refinement and a convertible top alone.

Do you guys think that without a Viper there would be a Z06? Probably not. With a GT-40 nipping at the heels of the SRT - or even passing it easily - DC is gonna have to do something to keep it's baby in front.

Why aren't you guys happy about this? This is a GOOD thing. It's only bad for those who would never buy anything other than a Viper. Certainly the Viper won't ALWAYS be the quickest thing around - so at some point you're gonna have to face the fact that something is faster. If it's a GT-40, fine by me. If it's slower, I'll stay with DC.

Don't worry... they know what they need to do. If they don't do it, they know the consequences.

 

[Paul Hawker]

How in the world can anyone expect the "proposed" GT40 to weigh in at only 2800 lbs. This is 1/3 less than the current 3900 lbs of a gunky mustang. What are they going to leave out. Air Conditioning (In a mid engine car), power steering, Brakes, sound and heat insulation. This would even be light for a race car, but the proposal is for a street car.
How are they going to get the heat out of that supercharged cast iron engine. The new mustang SVT added over 160 lbs due to iron block (aluminum heads) plus supercharger plus intercooler. How is the GT 40 going to magically loose 1,100 lbs!!!. At the same time they expect to pickup 100 hp, on an already highly stressed engine.
Currently in California the best gas you can get is only 91 octane. How much boost can you run with that for fuel.
The proposed mid engine car will have larger wheels, tires and brakes. All these things only add to the weight.
Sounds like a fantacy (all be it a wonderfull fantacy)

 

[FANGS/Indiana]

I've stayed out of the SRT-10 wars so far, but I must say that I don't feel that most Viper owners are as interested in being absolute king of the straight line drags as you guys may think(I know I'm not). The GT-40 aside(because I think it's way to soon for us consumers the fret about)it would seem that all of these high H.P. Stangs should easily be left behind when the road starts to get a little curvy. I have seen some good drivers with almost stock GTS's(engines) leave some highly moifide Vetts in their dust and the Stangs weren't even there.

I must admit that I don't like the SRT-10 as much as my 96 GTS but I like it well enough to buy one. As for the GT-40 I don't think I would buy one, just not my style, I like the SRT-10 better.

I am dismayed by the Viper owners that feel it nessesary to belittle the designer of this car because of his country of origin and what cars he had done before. This shows vary little class on your part, If you don't like the car just say so but don't blame it on where the man comes from or who he is, if you've never met the man you don't know the man. Good people come in all colors,shapes and sizes so don't be so quick to judge.

No flames please just my .02, I'll go back to lurking about.

P.S. Sorry about the spelling (it's my weakness)

 

[Frank 03SRT]

You need to post more. It would be nice to see more posts like yours. But obviously, you are way to polite and logical.

 

[onerareviper]

OnebadGTS,

One question: All else being equal, would your rather build your performance platform on a 5.4L SC motor, or an 8.3L Low-Moderate compression naturally aspirated motor?

Buy the way, I find it VERY hard to believe you can put 600 RWHP to the ground in a Ford Lightning (stock internals), for anything but 1/4 mile racing. I am no expert on these motors, but with that much boost I doubt they could withstand any type of road racing or extented high RPM type driving. Although, I've been wrong before.... My point - I will always take the cubes over the boost.

Although, I agree that over-all, I would select the GT-40 over the convertible SRT-10 (Take the Comp. Coupe over both!!!). And as you (someone) has shown, many poeple on this board (price being equal), would select the GT-40 over the SRT-10.

Now, if you post this question: Would you rather have the 5.4L SC GT-40 motor, or the SRT-10 8.3L V10, I betcha the vast majority would select the thundering V10. No doubt...

You just can't argue with 500+ cubes.... You just CAN'T!!!!


My .02

P.S. - Let's also compare apples to apples. GT-40 to SRT-10 is a great comparision. But comparing a Mustang to a Viper is ridiculous (Maybe you were just comparing the motors?). Most if not near all Viper owners love the overall performance of the car. Been there, done that with a 1989 Mustang 1/4 mile monster. Modified mustangs are a preferred means to make a 1/4 mile monster. This is not what Vipers are made for, and not why most of us buy them.....

 

[onerareviper]

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I am dismayed by the Viper owners that feel it nessesary to belittle the designer of this car because of his country of origin and what cars he had done before. This shows vary little class on your part, If you don't like the car just say so but don't blame it on where the man comes from or who he is, if you've never met the man you don't know the man. Good people come in all colors,shapes and sizes so don't be so quick to judge.
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Fangs,

Good post, and I agree - to an extent. I do think it is wrong to belittle the man because of his country of origin. That's plain stupid. Although I would hope he is a US Citizen, as the Viper represents an American made product that many of us our very proud of. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. Not to say you belittle him if he is not a US citizen, but I would question DC as to why they used a design of a non-US citizen for an American Icon, such as the Viper.

Now, I do think we have the right to criticize the man based on his previous designs. A person's track record of his past designs will influence his current designs, wouldn't you agree? And it is hard to argue the Japanese influence of this design. Remember, the Viper is an American icon. I would expect the car to look the part. Does it?

I also agree that some people are acting a fool towards the designer, as he produced what he thought looked best. I'm sure he is very proud of the design, which he has no reason not to be. Although, I think you do have to question DC as to why they selected a designer with a background in Japanese products. Although, maybe they selected him based on a submitted design, which they thought looked best. Not sure.

My .02

 

[King GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1bad gts:
To those thinking the GT-40 is a SHAME (there is not even a prototype )correct me if i am wrong arent alot of THE SAME ENGINEERS who designed our origional cars NOW working for FORD ON THE GT-40.If that does not get Viper owners TERRIFIED about the GT-40 performance potential NOTHING WILL.All in ALL its fair.We get COROLLA ENGINEERS ,FORD gets the people who engineered a LEGEND (THE CURRENT VIPER )


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This Post should be engraved in STONE!


"We get COROLLA ENGINEERS, <u>FORD gets the people who engineered a LEGEND</u> (THE CURRRENT VIPER)"


How can that statement get lost in all this? Did some of us not even see it? Can I please get a response to this specific statement? This is a travesty. And in one short sentence, sums up the whole problem! Well said!

 

[onerareviper]

1badGTS,

Take a chill pill man.... Even though I'm not a hugh fan of the 'look' of the SRT-10, I am thrilled with the performance. 500+ cubic inches!!!! WOW!!! This thing is going to be a rocket, no doubt. As far as changing pullies, running high boost, etc..., that's all crap in my opinion. Stock vs. Stock. PERIOD. Who's gonna pay for a toosted motor with a small pulley that someone uses to road race??? Yes, 1/4 mile runs can be performed with higher boost, small pullies, high octane fuel, etc... But lets talk about the real world. ****, if your only talking 1/4 mile just slap on $1,000 nitrous system and have at it. WERE TALKING ABOUT RELIABLE HORSEPOWER/TORQUE. This means road racing for hours without heat problems, detonation, etc... I'VE SEEN PLENTY OF TOASTED SC FORD MOTORS. Now I'm not saying the GT-40 will not be able to road race with smaller pullies, etc..., but if it was that reliable why wouldn't Ford design the blower this way in the first place? Stock vs. Stock is the only comparision I think is fair. And I don't think the GT-40 stands a chance with a 5.4L motor. Even with the SC and reduced weight. THE VIPER WILL REMAIN THE PERFORMANCE KING UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE!!! And if the worst-case scenario comes true, and the GT-40 does out-perform the SRT-10, we have 500+ cubic inches to play with. As always and forever more, 'NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT'.. I think PVO has done an incredible job with the performance aspect of the SRT-10. THIS CAR IS GONNA FLY... Now make me a GTS, dam-it...

My .02

 

[Viperfreak2]

The GT-40 is absolutely BEAUTIFUL! Too bad it doesn't exist, yet. We can all dream about owning one of the first 100, and when Ford starts the certificate program.....Truth is that a target weight is just that....a target. Being in the prototype business for a car company has shown me that the dreams of a light weight car can go away VERY quickly when the torsional tests say it needs a stiffer structure. Also, when the crash tests (computer sims and real world) end up on the wrong end of the star system.....the designers, laywers, and bean counters will have a meeting about adding stuff. The engine they PROPOSE sounds nice, but in the end, the reality of ACTUALLY owning one of these street legal GT-40's is still 2+ years away. Will anyone sell me a early reservation cert? lol Oh wait, I have never owned a Ford.