Lets pretend GM....

[RTTTTed]

Well I'm still in disbelief. No f---ing way man!

The inventor of the Hemi, the big researcher and teacher of Japanese automakers on building the Z28 killer turbo 4 ******, the inventor of the highest output passenger engines (Hemi and V10), the inventor of the Minivan, The Ramcharger design being the first SUV, the inventors (Jeep and Chrysler) of the first HD reliable full time all wheel drive systems.

The company with the most production cars banned from racing because they're TOO fast.

Bought by GM (that's famous for inventing nothing and copying everything) and "eliminated"???

The end of North America's dominance in Automotive technology. The new age - when people say "the German R8 and the *** GTR are faster than all North American cars eveyone will believe it. And they probably will be.

So, fast vette's are being discontinued and GM will try to kill off the Viper and SRTs? Then I guess Ford will be the big seller as they at least built a quick Mustang.

GM should buy HONDA and close that company down as they don't build and sell anything 'special'. Keep the Honda race programs since they're totally urelated to the actual "gas milage" car company anyway? Sell off the S2000 since some of the ricers like them.

That would eliminate enough Cobalt/Malibu/Caliber competition that all 3 North American companies would enter a "golden age" of sales.

Ted

 

[Kala]

IF GM does buy Chrysler... I seriously doubt the Viper program would live after the "Merger"...

I think I would rather have the Viper brand end up in the hands of Daimler, than see it vaporized @ GM...

As far as the other SRT models... You would think the Challenger would make it... although all I see written in articles is that GM will keep Jeep, minivans, basically nothing else.

Why would anyone buy Chrysler only to kill off all the models???

 

[RTTTTed]

Unfortunately big buisness and taxes are a failing of North America and England. Taxes and big corps are all about taking your money and spending it for you. They are no longer about being best for 'common man'.

Probably, and this is the only reason why I've seen such stupid performance of BB is that by cancelling out the best companies the super rich/rip-off(?) corps get a huge tax rebate/discount that more than equals the loss of the better company's finacial cost.

That's why they've coined the phrase, "Oh well, that's buisness."

Haha, maybe GMs being run by Muslim Terrorists??? This could be part of a conspiracy to force all Westerners to drive German or *** cars?

Ted

 

[GTSnake]

Why would anyone buy Chrysler only to kill off all the models???

Umm, maybe because they already have their own brands that compete in the same segment....

 

[Kala]

Umm, maybe because they already have their own brands that compete in the same segment....

Sounds like a lot of $ just to get rid of the competition...
I'm sure they have bean counters that can figure out how many years/decades it would take to pencil that out...

Or is the real story about the Govt bail out of the big three???

GM would get 2/3rds of the bail $?

The figure I have read is $25B...

$16 Billion anyone???

 

[Kala]

I just read this on another car forum I go to...

Saturday, October 18, 2008
GM-Chrysler talks advance

Cerberus pushes for quick deal; Financial crisis ramps up pressure to join forces

Christine Tierney, David Shepardson and Alisa Priddle / The Detroit News

Cerberus Capital Management LP founder Stephen Feinberg, a driving force behind the negotiations to combine General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC, is pushing for a rapid deal before both automakers are weakened further in this treacherous environment, say sources familiar with the situation.
GM President Frederick Henderson and Vice Chairman Bob Lutz also want to conclude an agreement quickly, the sources said. Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner is said to subscribe to the logic of such a deal but seems more guarded about the prospect of putting together two money-losing automakers facing similar challenges, the sources said. Some GM directors share those concerns.
The parties met Friday, but Feinberg was not directly involved with the talks. The negotiations have been complicated by the disclosure last week that they were taking place even though they were at a preliminary stage. But officials on both sides want to conclude a deal quickly -- preferably before the presidential election on Nov. 4, when candidates might be more amenable to requests for help.
Cerberus and GM declined to comment.
Under one scenario being discussed, GM would absorb Chrysler and draw on its cash hoard -- $11.7 billion on June 30 -- to wind down some of its businesses, brands and dealerships to slash costs.
The other potential suitor for Chrysler, the Renault-Nissan alliance, is weighing whether to continue negotiations in this tricky financial climate.
Feinberg is said by people close to the talks to favor a deal with GM as a solution to the U.S. auto industry's mounting difficulties.
Detroit's automakers are losing money and their market value has shrunk dramatically. According to the assessment of major banks, the U.S. automakers are not able to invest sufficiently in future products and technology to remain competitive, and they cannot obtain credit in this climate.
Their dire situation poses a problem for major banks, including Bank of America, Citibank, J.P. Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo, whose combined exposure to the industry runs into the tens of billions of dollars, said one source close to the situation.
The automakers' weakness also has reduced the value of Cerberus' automotive holdings, including Chrysler, acquired last year from Daimler AG for $7.2 billion, most of which was injected into Chrysler.
"It's a way for Cerberus to get out before it all blows up," said Joe Phillippi, president of AutoTrends Consulting Inc. in Short Hills, N.J.
"When Cerberus put this deal together, they felt this would be a medium-term holding" of five to seven years, he said.
"When they were doing their scenarios, I'm sure they never anticipated the industry would go from 17 million to 13 million or less (annual U.S. sales) in a very few short years, while they're still trying to right-size the industry."
After obtaining $23 billion in credit lines and loans in 2006, Ford Motor Co. is considered the best equipped to withstand a prolonged recession and a weak auto market. However, GM and Chrysler are viewed as more vulnerable in this downturn, with bankers assessing that the risk of bankruptcy may not be high but it is "meaningful," according to the source.
Sources close to the situation stress that many possibilities are being explored.
Feinberg's view, according to people familiar with the situation, is that GM and Chrysler should pair up before they are irreversibly weakened.
GM, which lost $18.8 billion in the first half of this year, is burning through at least $1 billion a month, analysts estimate.
It had access to about $21 billion cash and $5 billion in available credit at the end of June, and is in the midst of cutting $10 billion in costs by the end of 2009 and raising $5 billion through asset sales and borrowing. But analysts say it may run short of cash as the industry environment worsens.
Investment firm Goldman Sachs estimates U.S. auto sales will slide next year to 13 million cars and trucks from 13.8 million this year. In a note issued Friday, Goldman said it expected the market to recover only to 14 million units in 2010 -- compared with 16.1 million last year.
"We think lower affordability will materially impact auto sales," analyst Patrick Archambault wrote in the report. "Our base-case estimate is for a reduction in 'trend demand' to an average of 14 million units over the next several years versus our previous estimate of 16 million."
While union leaders have spoken out against a GM-Chrysler deal that could ravage Chrysler, industry insiders say some union and management officials consider that a deal, while painful, may spare the industry worse pain.
"The most brutal thing is companies going down," said David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. "What the union has to have more than anything is sustainable, profitable employers."
A source familiar with the situation said some reports had overstated the GM board's reservations to a Chrysler deal.
Cerberus, meanwhile, is interested in obtaining the remainder of GMAC Financial Services after having bought 51 percent from GM in 2006. GMAC is hoping to benefit from the government's purchase of bad loans from financial institutions.
Part of the pressure on Cerberus comes from investment banks, which were "very comfortable with Cerberus running GMAC, but uncomfortable with Cerberus being in the auto business."

 

[Kala]

This was posted on the Prowler forum.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Chrysler, GM deal confronts obstacles
Federal regulators, dealers and UAW could try to delay or prevent merger of Detroit rivals.
David Shepardson, Alisa Priddle and Robert Snell / The Detroit News
The only scenario seemingly not on the table for Chrysler LLC is the status quo as pressure mounts to decide the fate of Detroit's No. 3 automaker.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]The Auburn Hills automaker's owner, Cerberus Capital Management LP, wants to rid itself of Chrysler as soon as possible, and key players at would-be buyer General Motors Corp. are embracing the urgency.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]But getting a deal done won't be easy, even if the two automakers agree.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]A GM-Chrysler tie-up could face significant regulatory roadblocks, lawsuits, congressional hearings and protests by the United Auto Workers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]It would face a review of up to a year by either the Federal Trade Commission or the Justice Department, said Ted Bolema, a former antitrust attorney with the Justice Department and a Central Michigan University law professor.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]"The two companies would control about one-third of the light-vehicle market. That's getting up there in market concentration," he said.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]The FTC has reviewed auto mergers in recent decades, including the 1998 purchase of Chrysler Corp. by Daimler-Benz. A GM-Chrysler deal, however, would have more overlap of product lines and dealerships and could take longer to sort out.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]The Dodge Ram, along with Chevrolet and GMC full-size trucks, would account for more than half the segment. Chrysler could raise the "failing firm" defense, which says that a merger deemed anti-competitive could still be approved if the struggling business could go out of business otherwise.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Other options remain in play, from the sale of select assets such as the Jeep brand, minivans and full-size pickups, to GM's outright purchase of Chrysler for the purpose of cherry-picking these assets and then eliminating a competitor and some of the industry's profit-sucking overcapacity. Or, a foreign investor could buy the company outright.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]But, said Gerald Meyers, former chairman of AMC Motors and a professor at the University of Michigan, "there is no economic justification for the existence of the Chrysler Corp. Whatever Chrysler can do, someone else can do better."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Nor is there a need for duplicate assets, said Van Conway, president of Conway, MacKenzie & Dunleavy, a merger consulting firm.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]"You only need one headquarters, one set of designers and engineers."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]The premise for proceeding is that a combined company would lose less money than GM and Chrysler would separately, Conway said.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Time, money run short
But the benefits of integration are reaped long-term, while the cash burn and diversion of management time are felt immediately. And the "companies are running out of money now. The question is whether they will be around in a year and a half," he said.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Conway said the new combined automaker would have to be able to increase cash flow by at least 10 percent to be worth the cost and angst. "When you're living on this edge, you've got to be right on.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]"Merging a losing company with a losing company can work," Conway said, but it is less likely.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]The merger could also face delays if the UAW continues to oppose it or if Congress forces hearings. Northwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines executives have faced repeated hearings on Capitol Hill over their proposed merger since it was announced in April, and the deal still awaits approval from the Justice Department.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]A new president could also be aggressive in blocking a tie-up between the companies.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Both presidential candidates have said they want to help the domestic auto industry weather the worst auto market in decades, which is why the sides want to see a deal agreed upon before the Nov. 4 election.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Quick action also might thwart another potential suitor, the Renault-Nissan alliance, which is on the verge of formally deciding if it is still interested in the Auburn Hills automaker.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Statements that Cerberus bought Chrysler for the long haul are falling on deaf ears, especially with the financial tiff that has broken out between GMAC (which is 51 percent owned by Cerberus) and GM, which is now paying dealers an incentive for sales financed outside GMAC.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]That is in response to GMAC last week tightening its criteria for consumer automotive financing by requiring credit scores of 700 or more. An industry source called the GMAC move a "squeeze play" designed to force GM into swapping its 49 percent share of GMAC for Chrysler's automotive operations.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Cerberus wants to make credit so tough to obtain through the lending unit that GM will be forced to say, "Oh my God, fine, you want (GMAC), we'll give it to you," the industry source said.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Following AMC's footsteps?
A GM-Chrysler deal would likely mirror that of Chrysler's purchase of AMC in 1987, which spelled the end for Detroit's No. 4 automaker. But the circumstances couldn't be more different.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]"This is a real spider web in terms of 'how does this work?' " Joseph Phillippi, principal of AutoTrends Consulting in New Jersey, said of the messy job ahead.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]That is in stark contrast with the climate in 1987 when Chrysler took over AMC. "It was simple and easy," Meyers said. Then-Chrysler Chairman Lee Iacocca wanted the Jeep brand only, but AMC-owner Renault wouldn't carve up the company. "There was no haggling," Meyers said. "It was bought lock, stock and barrel."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Chrysler was doing well, and could afford to integrate AMC over a couple of years as it winnowed out excess cost. Jeep was kept intact and grown. Chrysler spent a year ridding itself of Renault, and the rest of AMC was excised over two to three years.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Getting rid of the surplus and individually owned dealers was even more time consuming. "They can't be fired. State laws protect them. They have to quit," Meyers said.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Weeding them out by natural selection was sped up by the lack of product with the death of the Eagle brand, which took 11 years, and there weren't dealer conglomerates such as Group One and Auto Nation to deal with as there are today.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]"Now, whoever buys Chrysler is expected to immediately carve costs from the hide of Chrysler," Meyers said.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]"It will be an instant bloodbath because both companies are in trouble and can't stand excess costs hanging around for very long."[/FONT]

 

[kennyhemi]

Well I'm still in disbelief. No f---ing way man!

The inventor of the Hemi, the big researcher and teacher of Japanese automakers on building the Z28 killer turbo 4 ******, the inventor of the highest output passenger engines (Hemi and V10), the inventor of the Minivan, The Ramcharger design being the first SUV, the inventors (Jeep and Chrysler) of the first HD reliable full time all wheel drive systems.

The company with the most production cars banned from racing because they're TOO fast.

Bought by GM (that's famous for inventing nothing and copying everything) and "eliminated"???

The end of North America's dominance in Automotive technology. The new age - when people say "the German R8 and the *** GTR are faster than all North American cars eveyone will believe it. And they probably will be.

So, fast vette's are being discontinued and GM will try to kill off the Viper and SRTs? Then I guess Ford will be the big seller as they at least built a quick Mustang.

GM should buy HONDA and close that company down as they don't build and sell anything 'special'. Keep the Honda race programs since they're totally urelated to the actual "gas milage" car company anyway? Sell off the S2000 since some of the ricers like them.

That would eliminate enough Cobalt/Malibu/Caliber competition that all 3 North American companies would enter a "golden age" of sales.

Ted

I think I'm going to throw upBeen a Mopar man all my life! wearing T-shirts that say MOPAR OR NO CAR! well I better start throwing away the T-shirts and and look for somthing else to be passionate about. I will NOT buy a GM product! Never have and if/when they kill off Chrysler never will. I will join my wife and drive a BMW THAT *****! I guess I will start surrounding myself with even more 60's-70's muscle mopars to relieve the pain. That's all I have to hang on to. Ok.... maybe another viper or two

 

[GTSnake]

The only hope to prevent it would be government regulators that can block it based on antitrust laws or the UAW. Keep your fingers crossed guys.

And start sending hate mail to Cerbrus

 

[Coloviper]

I am telling you. It will just be an AMC comany when it is all done. One North American car company (Ford will be bought yet and rolled into that too, wait and see) that will specialize in all the other American cars as models of this merged company.

It will be interesting to see.

 

[kennyhemi]

I am telling you. It will just be an AMC comany when it is all done. One North American car company (Ford will be bought yet and rolled into that too, wait and see) that will specialize in all the other American cars as models of this merged company.

It will be interesting to see.

I must agree with ColoViper, after Chrysler sooner or later it will be Ford. They already dried, Once they combine all of the American companies the should bring back The AMC name because that's what it will be!

 

[chimazo]

Hmmm... A while back in '87, didn't a company called Chrysler buy a company called AMC and ditch everything except the Jeep?

"It was the Jeep brand that Chrysler CEO Lee Iacocca really wanted—in particular the Grand Cherokee, then under development, which proved highly profitable for Chrysler (the nameplate remains in production today). Additional benefits included AMC's recently modernized factories, which offered Iacocca the opportunity to increase his company's production capacity..."

 

[GR8_ASP]

Hmmm... A while back in '87, didn't a company called Chrysler buy a company called AMC and ditch everything except the Jeep?

"It was the Jeep brand that Chrysler CEO Lee Iacocca really wanted—in particular the Grand Cherokee, then under development, which proved highly profitable for Chrysler (the nameplate remains in production today). Additional benefits included AMC's recently modernized factories, which offered Iacocca the opportunity to increase his company's production capacity..."

How about recalling real history. That is the only real car line that AMC had coming out was the Eagle Premier, which became a sales bomb. Which lead directly to the LH cars. Several other Eagle branded cars were tried before finally folding the brand years later. Employees though were largely retained and became a significant portion of the Chrysler of the 1990's including the engineering VP of that era. That was a horse of a different color.

 

[Warfang]

The only hope to prevent it would be government regulators that can block it based on antitrust laws or the UAW. Keep your fingers crossed guys.

And start sending hate mail to Cerbrus

If the fiasco with the Wizard has taught us... the guys up high at Cerberus is reachable.

 

[Kala]

If the fiasco with the Wizard has taught us... the guys up high at Cerberus is reachable.

Ok Fang...
I elect you to start "The Buzz"

Save SRT

 

[RTTTTed]

How about recalling real history. That is the only real car line that AMC had coming out was the Eagle Premier, which became a sales bomb. Which lead directly to the LH cars. Several other Eagle branded cars were tried before finally folding the brand years later. Employees though were largely retained and became a significant portion of the Chrysler of the 1990's including the engineering VP of that era. That was a horse of a different color.

Agreed, Chrysler ran AMC for another 10 years, they expanded Jeep. They also formed a new company called Diamond Star Motors with Mitsubishi and built the Eagle Talons, and various other cars as well. It was not a buy an American co. back from Renault (foreigners) and chop/eliminate.

Ted

 

[kennyhemi]

Ok Fang...
I elect you to start "The Buzz"

Save SRT

Forget who will start, I will someone send me a email/link/address to show my disaproval of this merger mess.

 

[kennyhemi]

Ok Fang...
I elect you to start "The Buzz"

Save SRT

Forget who will start, Will someone send me a email/link/address to show my disaproval of this merger mess.