I'd love to see a 'ring time for a factory Gen III with sport cups. Heck, even PS2's or PSS tires.
7:30?
Lighter and quicker than the current outgoing ACR
- Thread starter bushido
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I'd love to see a 'ring time for a factory Gen III with sport cups. Heck, even PS2's or PSS tires.
7:30?
F8L SNK
Enthusiast
It is, that is why I truly believe the Gen V will be quicker than the Gen IV ACR. At least at the ring and the faster tracks.
hou99gts
Enthusiast
shooter_t1
Has Left the Room!
If the new car can hit 206 mph in 6th gear as claimed, there is no way the body is producing downforce numbers anywhere near what a Gen IV ACR is producing.
F8L SNK
Enthusiast
Boxer12
Enthusiast
As far as downforce, the Gen V is probably more comparable to the ZR1...than the Gen IV ACR. If anyone could beat the downforce of a wing on a track, there wouldn't be one on the Gen V GTS-R. 
Oh yea, and I have yet to see a car that comes close to an ACR on the track without a wing. Look at the Enzo, it did a 7:25 at the Ring and you don't think there was some downforce in that design? You may see cars using a little less wing when the car is slammed like the GTS-R, but there is no way to beat a winged car apples to apples. And as far as less downforce verses more, look at the Red Bull car in F1, it has the most downforce, the slowest trap speeds and still dominated the past two years at virtually every track on the schedule.
jmo
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Oh yea, and I have yet to see a car that comes close to an ACR on the track without a wing. Look at the Enzo, it did a 7:25 at the Ring and you don't think there was some downforce in that design? You may see cars using a little less wing when the car is slammed like the GTS-R, but there is no way to beat a winged car apples to apples. And as far as less downforce verses more, look at the Red Bull car in F1, it has the most downforce, the slowest trap speeds and still dominated the past two years at virtually every track on the schedule.
jmo
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shooter_t1
Has Left the Room!
Didn't say that did I
Actually you did, you answered Jay M who said "Isn't the Gen V designed to have a lot of down force?"
Your answer "It is, that is why I truly believe the Gen V will be quicker than the Gen IV ACR. At least at the ring and the faster tracks."
Sorry I don't know how to do multi quote
F8L SNK
Enthusiast
Where did I say it had more and where did he say it had more? It WAS designed to have MORE downforce than the Gen III/IV (non ACR). Combine that with more power, lighter weight, more tire, better gearing, stiffer chassis I say it will be faster Especially on the faster tracks. That help you out big boy? NO WHERE did I say it had more downforce You said I said that Like I said we will see who is right soon enough. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, no biggie.
Especially on the faster tracks. That help you out big boy? NO WHERE did I say it had more downforce You said I said that Like I said we will see who is right soon enough. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, no biggie. Actually you did, you answered Jay M who said "Isn't the Gen V designed to have a lot of down force?"
Your answer "It is, that is why I truly believe the Gen V will be quicker than the Gen IV ACR. At least at the ring and the faster tracks."
Sorry I don't know how to do multi quote
shooter_t1
Has Left the Room!
No sense being rude about it. Wanna talk like that to my face Tim?. I'll be at TWS next weekend.
SSGNRDZ_28
Enthusiast
GEN IV ~100lbs of downforce @150mph... GEN IV ACR ~1000lbs downforce @150mph. The GEN V will be much closer to the 100lb number than the 1000lb number. No way will it touch the ACR other than acceleration and top speed IMO.
Newport Viper
Enthusiast
And .....
"There were numerous modifications made to the Viper’s body to get an impressive 0.364 drag coefficient – 0.016 better than 2010."
It's more impressive then an Escalade.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient
"There were numerous modifications made to the Viper’s body to get an impressive 0.364 drag coefficient – 0.016 better than 2010."
It's more impressive then an Escalade.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient
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Where did I say it had more and where did he say it had more? It WAS designed to have MORE downforce than the Gen III/IV (non ACR). Combine that with more power, lighter weight, more tire, better gearing, stiffer chassis I say it will be faster
Gentlemen, and I use that term loosely knowing the both of you LMAO
. You guys have fun out there and enjoy yourselves, hopefully Vipers keep getting faster and faster!F8L SNK
Enthusiast
We will have to wait for the face to face meeting, I am not going to make it out to TWS next weekend unfortunately.
shooter_t1
Has Left the Room!
Yes unfortunate isn't it.
elanderholm
Enthusiast
There is a decent chance it's a bit faster at a track like the Ring. Can't be the top dog forever. And if some car is going to be faster...I want it to be another viper.
mnc2886
Enthusiast
Anyone besides me think that they won't even run the ring with it? To the average, less informed potential Viper buyer, if the Gen V is slower around the ring than the Gen IV ACR it will hurt sales.
SnakeBitten
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To those that say the Gen V can't be as fast as the outgoing ACR strictly because of the disparity in downforce.
Isn't it possible that with the whole host of changes including lighter weight, better gearing, some aero, much better suspension tuning etc that the Gen V may just be able to hang with the ACR on shorter stateside tracks?
I can see it running with or faster than the ACR on tracks like Laguna, Willow Springs etc. On much longer tracks with lots of twisties like VIR and especially the Ring I'd say the odds on fav would still be the ACR though.
Isn't it possible that with the whole host of changes including lighter weight, better gearing, some aero, much better suspension tuning etc that the Gen V may just be able to hang with the ACR on shorter stateside tracks?
I can see it running with or faster than the ACR on tracks like Laguna, Willow Springs etc. On much longer tracks with lots of twisties like VIR and especially the Ring I'd say the odds on fav would still be the ACR though.
Boxer12
Enthusiast
Snakebitten, I think the answer is NO bcz the wing comes into play at lower speeds than the aero designed into the Gen V coupe, which prob has greater effect at a course where plus 160 (top speed of the ACR at VIR for eg) effects the times. That road course, where a non winged car wins, to my knowledge doesn't exist, witness the Ring where the higher top end or HP advantage (eg. ZR1) is lost due to all the turns). Make sense? Take the shiny beauty to the dragstrip, Texas Mile and AX, and leave the road courses to the Big Dogs (ACR)! I just hope they can put a TT on a Gen V and take some glory at the speed challenges!
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bushido
Viper Owner
Well put SB. I agree..
Boxer12
Enthusiast
Ok, lets talk facts with Laguna guys (while I throw some more water on you guys)...the 09 ACR did a 1:33.9 and beat the previous Laguna record by 1.1 sec, and the previous record was by a one off exotic prototype at 1:35.0. Before that proto, Randy Probst drove an 08 ACR to 1:35.1. Motor Trend timed the 2012 Lambo Aventador at 1:35.4 and a ZR1 at 1:35.8. A 458 Italia did 1:36.2
I have no idea what the record is for a stock SRT10, but the new SRT is .50 sec per mile quicker than the outgoing SRT10. Laguna is 2.2 mi long. Let's say you take a full two sec off the time of a 2010 SRT, what have you got?
I have no idea what the record is for a stock SRT10, but the new SRT is .50 sec per mile quicker than the outgoing SRT10. Laguna is 2.2 mi long. Let's say you take a full two sec off the time of a 2010 SRT, what have you got?
bushido
Viper Owner
The 2012 Z06 with the Z07 package did 1:34.43 at Laguna seca. Randy Pobst driving. I believe the 2011 ZR1 with factory cup tires did a low 1:34.. For
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wheEOSdDi9w
This is why I think SB was spot on ..
TrackAire
Enthusiast
I'm too lazy to re-read this entire thread...are we saying the Gen 5 with standard tires will even approach these record times at Laguna Seca? Maybe with the Corsas (I have no idea how good of a track tire these are compared to the Cups) it might best the Vette numbers
....but these are not super high speed tracks.Just about every track with higher speeds has records set by cars with major aero additions. The Lexus LFA had a major wing and other aero bits installed (plus stickier tires IIRC) to get its short lived 7:14 record at the Ring.
The Devon GTX had the Laguna Seca record at 1:35, but it too had an very large wing added to the body for that run. At the Sema show, the car was without it.
The problem is, if the Corvette on sticky tires can do it in 1:34....going that extra second or two faster becomes exponentially harder.
SRT knows what numbers the car will run at the Ring without even going there. Unless it is a very low number, don't expect anything from them until you see some sort of Gen 5 with an aero package (like and ACR).
Bushido....you have a pm.
Cheers,
George
bushido
Viper Owner
I'm too lazy to re-read this entire thread...are we saying the Gen 5 with standard tires will even approach these record times at Laguna Seca? Maybe with the Corsas (I have no idea how good of a track tire these are compared to the Cups) it might best the Vette numbers
Just about every track with higher speeds has records set by cars with major aero additions. The Lexus LFA had a major wing and other aero bits installed (plus stickier tires IIRC) to get its short lived 7:14 record at the Ring.
The Devon GTX had the Laguna Seca record at 1:35, but it too had an very large wing added to the body for that run. At the Sema show, the car was without it.
The problem is, if the Corvette on sticky tires can do it in 1:34....going that extra second or two faster becomes exponentially harder.
SRT knows what numbers the car will run at the Ring without even going there. Unless it is a very low number, don't expect anything from them until you see some sort of Gen 5 with an aero package (like and ACR).
Bushido....you have a pm.
Cheers,
George
Thank's got your PM..
I Bin Therbefor
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In listening to Ralph talk, I get the impression that the amount of downforce built into the Gen V is for the purpose of creating high speed stability, not for the purpose of max lap speeds on any particular track. Recall that the rear duck bill has been raised slightly due to the results of development testing. Most likely SRT is balancing the down force between the front and rear. Again, for high speed stability. Ralph wants to keep the Viper owners alive, all of them! 
SnakeBitten
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Thanks Bushido. Glad I'm not the only one thinking like this.
Boxer12 and trackaire I see where you are coming from. However I've seen tests where cars like the GTR and Lambo G were less than a second off the ACR pace in a head to head test. One was USA Top Gear test track where the ACR is about .4 faster than the Lambo G SL. That Lambo doesnt have anywhere near the downforce the ACR has and yet is within .4 of the ACR. This is why in my head I believed the Gen V may just be as fast on some tracks. Surely the Gen V should be faster than the older GTR and Lambo. It may just be wishful thinking on my part because if the g5 coupe is as fast as the outgoing ACR then you gotta expect ACR-X like performance for the next ACR.
P.S. I know mag test are not remotely fool proof but the results do make me wonder.
Also I believe we were saying that a gen V with track pack and stickiest factory rubber MAY be as fast as the outgoing ACR. Not a reg non-track pack coupe.
Boxer12 and trackaire I see where you are coming from. However I've seen tests where cars like the GTR and Lambo G were less than a second off the ACR pace in a head to head test. One was USA Top Gear test track where the ACR is about .4 faster than the Lambo G SL. That Lambo doesnt have anywhere near the downforce the ACR has and yet is within .4 of the ACR. This is why in my head I believed the Gen V may just be as fast on some tracks. Surely the Gen V should be faster than the older GTR and Lambo. It may just be wishful thinking on my part because if the g5 coupe is as fast as the outgoing ACR then you gotta expect ACR-X like performance for the next ACR.
P.S. I know mag test are not remotely fool proof but the results do make me wonder.
Also I believe we were saying that a gen V with track pack and stickiest factory rubber MAY be as fast as the outgoing ACR. Not a reg non-track pack coupe.
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The stock 2010 Gen IV coupe non ACR version has a top speed of 202 MPH. The 2010 ACR version has a top speed of 184 MPH because of the down force. There is no way a stock Gen V ( 206 MPH top speed) with or without the track pack will be able to best a 2010 ACR on a road course except for one whose curves are constructed so that more down force does not produce an advantage. The only way to have this is to use a NASCAR oval with steep banks and that is not a road course. The CD of the ACR is a higher number because of the mathematical interaction of the down force in the aero formula. Ralph has made it clear that there will eventually be an ACR version. We were shown a drawing of what it might look like last December at our local club meeting. It had a similar aero set up to the current ACR.
The only thing that we can be sure of is that the stock non ACR Gen V coupe will be faster on a road course than the stock non ACR Gen IV coupe. Why? More rigidity; more HP and torque; better suspension; more track friendly gearing.
The only thing that we can be sure of is that the stock non ACR Gen V coupe will be faster on a road course than the stock non ACR Gen IV coupe. Why? More rigidity; more HP and torque; better suspension; more track friendly gearing.
TrackAire
Enthusiast
I think everything you say is correct regarding the Lambo, GTR, etc. according to the posted times. But, the comparison between the Lambo and the ACR on the Top Gear USA show will only matter if the cars are tested back to back on the same day. Different temps, dust on the track (favors an AWD car), etc will make a difference in time. And this was done at El Toro air base...not a real track with a groove from what I recall. When the 2008 ACR set the Ring record, the car could not pull 5th gear down the long straight since there was a very high head wind that day. The driver just stayed in 4th and bounced off the rev limiter. The 2010 car had the revised 5th gear (which helped) but the headwind issue was not as bad from what I was told. Having said that, they still had a ton of problems with weather, lack of time on the track, etc. SRT was very fortunate to get the record that day.
The ACR-X that went 7:03 was even more impressive IMO. The uber expensive Ferrari 599XX did the Ring in 6:58 but it was not on the same day as the ACR run. The 599XX has some very exotic aero and really is a full on race car. The 599XX has 720 hp, crazy aero tricks, paddle milli-second fast shifting, lots of runtime at the Ring and it only beat the ACR-X by 5 seconds!!
You can buy at least 10 ACR-X's for the cost of one 599XX.....plus SRT lets you take home the car and drive it whenever and wherever you want
Cheers,
George
SnakeBitten
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I think everything you say is correct regarding the Lambo, GTR, etc. according to the posted times. But, the comparison between the Lambo and the ACR on the Top Gear USA show will only matter if the cars are tested back to back on the same day. Different temps, dust on the track (favors an AWD car), etc will make a difference in time. And this was done at El Toro air base...not a real track with a groove from what I recall. When the 2008 ACR set the Ring record, the car could not pull 5th gear down the long straight since there was a very high head wind that day. The driver just stayed in 4th and bounced off the rev limiter. The 2010 car had the revised 5th gear (which helped) but the headwind issue was not as bad from what I was told. Having said that, they still had a ton of problems with weather, lack of time on the track, etc. SRT was very fortunate to get the record that day.
The ACR-X that went 7:03 was even more impressive IMO. The uber expensive Ferrari 599XX did the Ring in 6:58 but it was not on the same day as the ACR run. The 599XX has some very exotic aero and really is a full on race car. The 599XX has 720 hp, crazy aero tricks, paddle milli-second fast shifting, lots of runtime at the Ring and it only beat the ACR-X by 5 seconds!!
You can buy at least 10 ACR-X's for the cost of one 599XX.....plus SRT lets you take home the car and drive it whenever and wherever you want
Cheers,
George
You are right of course about differing conditions from one run to another on different days, track conditions etc. Point taken.
I do hope SRT takes at least a week or two to properly run each Viper model at the Ring. The Viper is overdue for a serious effort at the Ring like what Nissan, Chevy and others have done. The short time spent for each run and still coming away with the title each time tells you a serious effort will yield even faster times. It's far cheaper to spend a week or two at the Ring than to campaign two cars in ALMS for a year. Both give the brand good exposure and creates a lasting buzz. Come on Sergio add Nurburgring R&D into the Viper budget
