Making a Viper Handle better.

[Early93Viper]

I have been tracking my GEN I for three years now. I have done a couple of things to increase handling performance. I have put KUMHO V700s on and have changed my setting on my shocks to 5/5 in front and 2/5 in the back. Both have helped my handling immensely.

But the car at the limit is still very twitchy. Although I have learned what the car feels like at the limit and how to control it (at least 99.9% of the time) I would like to have a more confidence in my cars at the limit handling.

Also I would like to dial out excessive oversteer that seems to become a problem the more I push my Viper. And basically just make my car handle better in the corners.

I would like to do this the cheapest way possible. Alignment settings (camber, etc.), Shock settings and little to no cost adjustments would be Ideal but I am also interested in low and medium cost mods.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Are the shocks original? If so the valving could be shot and the extreme front settings may be needed because the valving is out of spec. If your Viper is twitchy then maybe you need to try "softer" settings so the handling is more predictable and progressive. If you have the rebound set too stiff in the front you will not get the rearward bite you need out of the corner, this can cause snap over steer and crisp turn in that also leads to over steer based on your inputs of the wheel. Alignment can help along with proper tire pressures for your setup.
If you would like to call me and share the specifics I'm sure I could set up a plan for you.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Assuming you have stock tire sizes my advice would be to increase the fronts to 295 or 315. You might be able to pick up some used 12 x 17(or)18 front wheels for a good price.

 

[Early93Viper]

Are the shocks original? If so the valving could be shot and the extreme front settings may be needed because the valving is out of spec. If your Viper is twitchy then maybe you need to try "softer" settings so the handling is more predictable and progressive. If you have the rebound set too stiff in the front you will not get the rearward bite you need out of the corner, this can cause snap over steer and crisp turn in that also leads to over steer based on your inputs of the wheel. Alignment can help along with proper tire pressures for your setup.
If you would like to call me and share the specifics I'm sure I could set up a plan for you.

That would be great! I will give you a call. I went around MAM with Bill Pemberton at viper days this year and he suggested I might consider a sway bar.

The shocks are original. Do you have a suggesting on settings? Should I have them revalved?

 

[Early93Viper]

Assuming you have stock tire sizes my advice would be to increase the fronts to 295 or 315. You might be able to pick up some used 12 x 17(or)18 front wheels for a good price.

Would that just increase my front grip? I really want to increase my rear grip. Take out the snap oversteer that I have been having a problem with.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

You could simply go softer on the rear shocks than you are now.

Adding toe-in to the rear could help, too.

 

[RTTTTed]

Gen 1's use Dakota stamped steel control arms. Not sure if the 2nd Gen aluminium control arms are easy bolt-ins or not, but they would make a significant upgrade. GTSbud has a set and would know more ... send him a PM as he has a complete set of control arms for sale in the classifieds.

Unsprung weight makes the biggest difference to handling. Lighter wheels, lighter spindles, slotted/drilled brake rotors with aluminium 'hats' would all make a big difference.

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

I guess I should have included Eibach sport springs to lower your ride as well.

Ted

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

The Gen2 arms will not go on without cutting off the mounts and re welding Gen2 mounts in the correct spots. This is VERY labor intensive and has to be done just right or the outcome will be horrible. We have done this on a race car and it was not fun but a great learning experience. It did really elevate the car on the track though so I guess it was a success.

 

[TexasPettey]

On alignment, I'm running -2deg front and -1deg rear. I use the sport shims to swap a degree out for track/street. I have the TOE set for track at .05 out. I don't bother with the toe in change for the street that comes with the +1deg camber, since I don't put many street miles on it. I've found that the car really wants to 'track' the grooves in the pavement with that much toe out. I'm going to dial in back to neutral for the next event.

I also run Kumho v700. I have 315's up front with 500/750 spring rates. The bigger tires are great, but aggrevate the tendancy of the back to want to break loose first.

I would think that the cheap/easy way to get some better handling would be stiffer springs the ability to lower the car, if you don't have that capability already. I don't know what is available for Gen1 springs with stock shocks now. I'm also unsure if you can easily swap spring caps in and out.

Another area to think about would be the engine/tranny mounts. If they are stock, they may be shot. An upgrade to poly would help reduce the movement of the drivetrain when you use throttle in the turn.

When the rears start to slide, can you apply throttle to get it back in line? I've just started to get that feel with the SC, and I find that with the 315's up front, the car really likes throttle in the turns. Not too much, of course.

BTW, these are my favorite threads.

 

[RTTTTed]

The Gen2 arms will not go on without cutting off the mounts and re welding Gen2 mounts in the correct spots. This is VERY labor intensive and has to be done just right or the outcome will be horrible. We have done this on a race car and it was not fun but a great learning experience. It did really elevate the car on the track though so I guess it was a success.

Thanks for the input. I suspected the mounts may need changing as the A arms were listed as Viper specific (although that means squat often).

Lol, learn something new every day if you try hard enough.

I agree with the driving strategy above as well. It seems that Dodge builds oversteer so that the car will oversteer into the corner and can understeer when applying throttle out of the corners. My Dodge Stealth steers exactly the same.

I also am working on 'gently applying' throttle because of the supercharger.

Ted

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Would that just increase my front grip? I really want to increase my rear grip. Take out the snap oversteer that I have been having a problem with.

In that case it has already been covered. But as was discussed in a previous thread those GenIs are great but they are a little "exciting". Not sure how much of that excitement can be dialed out of them.

 

[Boxer12]

If you want to do this without much money, would try the anti-toe brackets (only $200) to stabalize the car, and get sway bars, greasable bushings and a good track alignment (leave the shims in place) as a first step. That would be less than $1000. Call John Archer (archerracing.com) for specs on alignment, he would be glad to help. They have brackets and sway bars, as does Dave's Big Brakes. At that point, you have a good reference point to work from. Then you can methodically upgrade or change things to tune the suspension you have, like springs, etc. Springs will make the car much less 'street' friendly. Or, you can take the plunge and spend thousands to change everything out with someone like Woodhouse or Archer tutoring you. Random changes is probably not the best way to go. I have only been driving Viper for two years, but have over 20 years track experience, and my impression is that most people who drive Vipers have no idea how poorly they handle, or that it can be improved. They just think its 'character' of the car. All manufacturers build in understeer for liability reasons, esp, Dodge it seems. Like you, I wanted the car to handle well (to me, meaning no twitching, well balanced and hard stopping car), so I changed just about everything out (over $15K) and now it handles very well. I started with a stock Gen 2. From what I hear (my neighbor has been tracking his Gen 1 since the inception of Viper Days), the Gen 1 will never handle like a Gen 2, but I feel there is just more room for improvement. The control arms is probably the biggest upgrade and if you want to stick with the Gen 1 and run with the Gen 2's and 3's, you probably have to take the plunge. Don't expect to get your money back out of it, however, as you won't. Just my 2c.

 

[JonB]

Remember, readers THE YEAR MATTERS ! Answers on GEN 1 are very specific to GEN 1.
Some advice here that applies to Gen 2 would put a Gen 1 in the wall. ie...adding a stiffer Front sway bar to an already-twitchy (oversteering) Gen 1 is a G1 wall-hit. Anti-Toe brakets are a GEN 2 recommendation, not a GEN 1 need. I dont think anyone has them.

[Fact: Gen 1s were so 'neutral' at OE alignment spec, that Gen 2s were intentionally given a dab of understeer at OE specs.]

Cheapest: Monitor your tire pressures...have a crewmember take em HOT and PAY ATTENTION to handling changes at different pressures. Tire tech is FREE. But you must be anal about it to LEARN WHAT WORKS and then pay attention.

Your control arm bushings are probably gone. You did not say miles/track miles. Its a big factor in handling when they wear out.

Lower the car = Lower C.G. Cheap ' Spring caps' under $225/set, and almost no labor.
Immediate improvement.

Then align the car. A good 'performance alignment' can negate a lot of the twitch, but can cost several hundred $$. Worth the money to be able to drive with "2 fingers" in my opinion. It eats more front tires....watch the inner shoulders carefully. They will expire as fast as the rears.

Add a rear deck spoiler...I know you said low cost, but its cheaper ($400-$600) than a wallbanger.

Good Luck

 

[Early93Viper]

Thanks everyone for all the help. Some good Information here!

Jon are the spring caps for GEN I shocks?

My mileage is 47,000 miles my track mileage is probably around 2,500-3,000 miles.

 

[ACELLR8]

Since Eibachs are no longer available for Gen I's, I put the Intrax lowering springs on my 95 and set the stock Koni's to the settings that Chuck Tator gave me that they run with the Eibachs. Also had a local alignment shop give the car a performance alignment. Not sure what the specs were but the guy has been doing alignments for 30 years and a lot of vette folks bring their cars from far and near to get a track alignment from him.
Car definitely feels like it handles better.
I bought the springs from Drivewire.com for $230.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The Gen2 arms will not go on without cutting off the mounts and re welding Gen2 mounts in the correct spots. This is VERY labor intensive and has to be done just right or the outcome will be horrible. We have done this on a race car and it was not fun but a great learning experience. It did really elevate the car on the track though so I guess it was a success.

The Gen 2 arms won't go on an early Gen 1 or later Gen 1... any details? I had this planned as a way to remove weight from the car and just looking at the pieces and parts seems like it would fit.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

jon,
where do you get new suspension bushings?
are there urethane bushings available for gen1 or gen2?

for the gen1 guys, would there be a way to make custom aluminum control arms instead of the hassle of converting to gen2 arms? would that be even better than going to gen2 arms?

 

[ROCKET62]

Tom's 40mm brake kit makes a world of difference in stopping. I had them on my '93 and the stopping difference was night and day.

 

[Leslie]

I think it's VERY kewl you are tracking your GenI, I am impressed!

I love these threads too, there are a lot of REALLY knowledgeable drivers on here.

I was shocked how much better my GenII felt after I changed out the tranny and motor mounts, got them at Woodhouse.

Something else I did that wasn't mentioned was I had the Viper shop tighten down all my bolts, after years of 'vibration' at the track things can come loose, felt a difference immediately. Eibach springs and the alignment did a lot for my handling and lowered it a bit.

Something else that was mentioned is KEY...and it's FREE! Check tire pressures IMMEDIATELY after coming off the track, I pull off to the side before even going back to the garages and either jump out or have a buddy standing there. I keep a tire log book, really helps to see how changing tire pressure by 1 or 2psi can make a huge difference, ex: I always run a little lower in my driver side front tire at Putnam Park...lots of right hand turns so that tire is doing a lot of work!

I was experiencing a little push so I put a larger tire up front (295), might go to 335's all around this year.

I do each change individually so I can see and feel the difference before jumping in to a whole lot of things at once. JMHO...unless you have the opportunity to go to one of these guys above then I would orchestrate it all out with them and go for it!

 

[FrankBarba]

Early Viper.....

If you are up to it. Maybe sometime this spring or summer you'd allow me the privilage of driving your viper with you during a HPDE track day. I started out in a Gen 1 (95), and i would say that i have more time Racing a Gen 1 then most. All the guys i raced with were driving Gen 2's and with what they were spending i'd take my 2nd's & 3rd's aginst them.

 

[Early93Viper]

Early Viper.....

If you are up to it. Maybe sometime this spring or summer you'd allow me the privilage of driving your viper with you during a HPDE track day. I started out in a Gen 1 (95), and i would say that i have more time Racing a Gen 1 then most. All the guys i raced with were driving Gen 2's and with what they were spending i'd take my 2nd's & 3rd's aginst them.

I made this thread in 07 a lot of track days ago. But I would still like any help that I could get. Always could be faster.

 

[FrankBarba]

Early.....I didn't see the Date. PM me with what you have done & if possible i'll throw you some things you might not have thought of or done...

 

[Leslie]

I think it's awsome to renew the thread!

Seems we have had a influx of crashed Vipers lately, would be good to learn about ways to handle them better.

 

[white out]

for the gen1 guys, would there be a way to make custom aluminum control arms instead of the hassle of converting to gen2 arms? would that be even better than going to gen2 arms?

Custom tubular control arms might be a good idea. I ran them on my Grand National and it was a world of difference. The tubular control arms weighed about half of the oem units.

Poly bushings will be a big difference for a low cost, but a big time factor. So if you do it yourself it will be a cheap mod, if you have it done. . .

Not cheap, but some used lightweight wheels (BBS LM) with some r compound tires will make a HUGE difference (if track/tire temps are adequate).

+1 for the alignment, brakes, etc.

Nick

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Well, OK, but the thread was resurrected because it seemed for a while you could put the lightweight upper arm, lower arm, and steering knuckle from a Gen 2 onto a Gen 1, until I saw Mark's reply. That was kind of surprising, since I thought the upper arm was the easiest part to exchange and had been done already. So we await a Woodhouse reply!

 

[Fast Viper Dan]

It sounds like your car is close to what you want. Having someone else driver your car at this point may not help you. Once your close, small changes will help you find what works for you. Remember the rule, slow in fast out. There is so much truth to that catch fraise.
What will help is having a fellow racer or fast track rat ride with you as a coach. It helps having someone else look for things for you to try that are different. Some times it works and other times not. You have to try small changes, one at a time.

Original post said twitchy.
If twitchy under braking, I would say, rebuild shocks and or too much rear brakes.
If twitchy on entry of corner, I would say, tighten rear rebound. Also helps with over steer. (too much front tire grip)
If twitchy or loose at mid corner, I would say, try softening front rebound. Soften rear sway bar if yours is adjustable. (need more transfer to the rear)
If twitchy at exit, similar to mid.

Tire pressures are important. Should check temps across the tires. Temps should not vary more than 10% from inside to outside. If more than that, tire pressures and or camber adjustments should be made (a little at a time).

Next Viper Days or other track day, ask for a coach. Not a paid professional, but one of the instructors willing to ride with you. After 9 years of wheel to wheel racing I still do this. It's fun to learn.
Pay John Archer to make small adjustments thru out the weekend rather than a complete once over. Again, it sounds like small changes are in order at this point.

 

[FrankBarba]

The Upper A Arm from a Gen 2 will work. It has been done...

 

[99 R/T 10]

The Upper A Arm from a Gen 2 will work. It has been done...

Same ball joints? Any fitting problems?

 

[FrankBarba]

Same ball joints? Any fitting problems?

No, No.....

I tried changing out the bushing with different ones that are sold on the site somewhere. While i was torqing down the A Arms they started collapsing. I spoke with the famous MR. Woodhouse & he hooked me up. Give Woodhouse Performance a call they will get you going.