Monday we find out who is faster at Laguna Seca, ZR1 or Gen V

[Ray W]

Sorry if this comes off as rude but there are a few perception points that need to be taken into account to reveal that SRT did do the job they needed to do in the way they have always done from 1989 onwards.

No offense taken. Just a discussion between those with different viewpoints and expectations. I may be a little more passionate because I laid my money down in good faith rather than waiting for results.

I am feeling at this time I my have jumped the gun and would rather cancel now before sticking someone with my car. I am not going for anything else. I am a Viper lover through and through. I won't be getting another ZR1,Ferrari ,Porsche or GTR. I'll just remember a great moment in time that I got to be a part of.

 

[Makara]

It would seem that the Mayans were a few days off in their prediction.

 

[Kratos]

I understand that there are more than a few of the faithful that have been upset by this, since most of those were the ones asking for more power and performance from the Gen V, yet what they perceived they got was a 'warmed over' Gen IV. In some ways they are right...and this test puts SRT under the hot seat.

However, the days of easy dominance by the Viper have been gone for a long time. Ever since the C6 Z06 got introduced in 2007 there has been a back and forth between the top Vettes and Vipers and SRT group isn't going to take their marbles and go home. If you look at the amount of development that the Corvettes have had over the years along with their associated budgets, you will realize that the Viper has always been a skunkworks operation and you should be proud of the work the engineers and managers have done for so little.

The Gen V might be less of a performance update than what the hardcores wanted, but the Gen V fixes most of what was perceived as deficient compared to other cars of its caliber. If the performance has suffered so it's no longer dominating tracks and dragstrips, perhaps that can be addressed with some tuning and a GTS-R/ACR update.

Just remember the entire Viper program was originally developed for less than the cost of the Neon's bumper (it may have showed though ). Today, I don't think anyone is giving up at SRT but this is a tiny volume car at a bargain price (relatively, even with the Gen V's price increase). Name another manufacturer that has continued to make a tiny volume dedicated platform/engine combo that is even remotely competitive, let alone dominating, for so cheap (DoT certified).

Given the drama on this thread and a couple of others, I'm surprised we haven't found forum members dangling from the rafters yet. I get it that there's a lot of people who *love* the Viper and want it to be the best (whatever that means), but sometimes being hypercritical does more damage than good. Step outside, take a deep breath, go for a drive and come back before posting about d00000000000mmmmmm.

Exactly.











...

 

[yellowmz3]

Have to agree with Ray W and Chorps: Drive it and then decide. Unfortunately, this will probably necessitate my order cancellation since my car will probably be in before any are available for a test drive.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

You and me both!!

Good for you ! If the circumstances were right for me now I'd have an order in for a Gen V myself.

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

I to, am big time disappointed in the performace numbers of the new Viper.Just wait til the new ZR1 comes out,believe me GM will make that car way more HP and faster than the old ZR1 and Gen 5 Viper.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

Have to agree with Ray W and Chorps: Drive it and then decide. Unfortunately, this will probably necessitate my order cancellation since my car will probably be in before any are available for a test drive.

You can take my word for it without question because I belong to the worlds worst group of nitpicks when given the chance.. Ralph's comment about the shifter feeling exact and precise like a rifle reloading mechanism is spot on to the last nerve end. This said with 1 ride in the Pebble Beach Gen 5.. and stepping out with a cloud 9 type CRUSH on the thing as witnessed by those who were waiting .. and the same ADD thing kicking in now that I type this, lol..

 

[SADVIPER]

This result has changed nothing regarding my likings for the car.

 

[TrackAire]

No offense taken. Just a discussion between those with different viewpoints and expectations. I may be a little more passionate because I laid my money down in good faith rather than waiting for results.

I am feeling at this time I my have jumped the gun and would rather cancel now before sticking someone with my car. I am not going for anything else. I am a Viper lover through and through. I won't be getting another ZR1,Ferrari ,Porsche or GTR. I'll just remember a great moment in time that I got to be a part of.

I get what Ray is saying and how he feels. A lot of people here think this is just a performance issue, we got beat by a Vette, etc. It is not. It is a lack of communication issue.

Everybody wants to know their car is at the top of the performance list. But, that is not as important to a lot of us as the following and how SRT has handled the Viper in general.

We asked for performance figures......silence.

We have asked about both Gen 4 and Gen 5 computer upgrades and modifications.....silence.

Questions about Gen 3 and Gen 4 window regulators being defective....silence.

We're all big boys here, when a question is asked, then an answer should follow. If the answer is confidential and cannot be given, then at least say so, we can handle it. But just giving us the silent treatment is bull....if you want our money, it's a two way street. So when we're told to wait and see how great this new Gen 5 will be, we expect it to be at least a little better performance-wise than a Gen 4. Rumors on this forum claim that SRT, Ralph, etc. said the new Gen 5 is a faster track car than a Gen 4 ACR. If this was not true, why didn't SRT silence or clarify this? Since we don't have any performance figures (again, silence from SRT), when the numbers do come out people are pissed because they have made assumptions....and we know where that can get you.

A few of my friends that have the means to write a check for a new Gen 5 won't even consider it because they claim not being able to mod the car (via the computer) like others (Ford GT, GTR, Vette, R8, Porsche, etc) diminishes the resale value of the vehicle down the road. They realize that many people that buy this type of car are gearheads that like to mod their cars for various reasons.
I haven't even gotten inside my motor and I've spent thousands on suspension, transmission, rear end, wheels, exhaust, intake, Mopar PCM, etc. Guys with Ford GTs, Vettes, etc can easily spend $50k or more on different performance upgrades very quickly....at the Gen V's performance potential, it would be an obvious car for this market yet a large market share won't even consider it due to lack of information and silence.

So now you have a well respected driver who claims the car is not sorted out. Do I believe him?...yes. If SRT is not ready to put a Viper in a test, they should say so. If the car needs more work, they should say so. If panels are harder to get straight and delay the cars availability, say so. There is no shame in taking the time to make a product correct. It actually makes a buyer appreciate his car more knowing the difficulties the manufacturer had and the steps they went through to make sure the car is as perfect as it can be. It also builds a storyline into the cars legend and what it took to make it as awesome as it is. Everybody knows there will be problems....it's how they are handled that keeps the Viper owner loyal.

This whole damn thread discussion would pretty much be null and void if SRT had released performance numbers so we would know what to expect. Getting embarrassed by a Vette with very little aero, smaller tires (although obviously much better grip), and identical hp is not what the blind sheep were expecting. This could have all been avoided....but instead we got silence.

Congrats to the ZR1 on the new record, that is a pretty damn impressive number considering the car has no crazy aero aids.

George

 

[Moundir]

Well put George! I more than have the means to buy both a SRT and gts and not bat an eye, but why give Dodge or fiat any of my hard earned cash to simply have a car I can't mod or enjoy the way I want, without a headache! No thanks! I'll just keep my gen 4 and add a real GTS when the right one comes along.

 

[Ray W]

George,thanks for consolidating all my multiple posts. If SRT really does listen and really does care. Just have someone pop on this 14,000+ veiwed thread and say so. I have already said if you have a unmodded GEN I,II,III your view is going to be the glass is half full. If you sold your GEN IV for a GEN V your glass is half empty.

 

[aries]

One track ,one test and you guys wrote off a car ????????? It wasn’t even the final production spec. or our track model....Only a few months ago you guys were cheering that we destroyed the world at the Ring Just relax and stop whining like babies Damn I feel like I am in the P_ssy Forum

Damn I wish this was a p*ssy forum, I could really go for some right about now. lol

 

[SilveRT8]

The "END OF THE WORLD" coming in 3 days will be cat's milk compared to this thread !
Ralph will send his chosen driver back to LS, beat the record and this same Gen V will be a wonderfull car again.

 

[kdaviper]

If anything, this gives SRT a chance to show off their new aero package they've been talking about so much. My prediction is they'll lay a better time with the same GTS, then whip out a aero-equipped model and really put the screws on.

 

[troublemaker]

While I kind of expected the results, the response was not expected. The ZR1 is a top notch performer, well sought out and fast as hell. If anyone thought this was going to be an easy win, they're nuts. Maybe this generation is easier to drive, but I guarantee it still isnt easy to drive. Its still a buman driving it a d there is going to be a learning curve, the curve for the Vette is just about plateaud. I know nothing of either driver all I know is the Viper driver can not hage anwhere near the seat time in a car that is brand new. The ZR1 may in the end be faster, who knows but the numbers right now are going to tell nothing except the Corvette driger got around the track faster than the Viper driver. I think both companies did an awesome job on these cars and they are both American cars.

 

[Mopar488]

Looks like it is time to bring out the big gun. How long till the new ACR will be back in town?

 

[BlknBlu]

SRT is in the house.

Bruce

 

[ViperSmith]

I get what Ray is saying and how he feels. A lot of people hear think this is just a performance issue, we got beat by a Vette, etc. It is not. It is a lack of communication issue.
snip

George

I think you bring up the best points so far. While they don't impact me a whole lot, I can see why it impacts a bunch of peoples decisions.

 

[ArnarFB]

The real end of the world begins here... Viper Club of America - Generation V discussion board

 

[troublemaker]

While I kind of expected the results, the response was not expected. The ZR1 is a top notch performer, well sought out and fast as hell. If anyone thought this was going to be an easy win, they're nuts. Maybe this generation is easier to drive, but I guarantee it still isnt easy to drive. Its still a human driving it and there is going to be a learning curve, the curve for the Vette is just about plateaud. I know nothing of either driver all I know is the Viper driver can not have anywhere near the seat time in a car that is brand new. The ZR1 may in the end be faster, who knows but the numbers right now are going to tell nothing except the Corvette driger got around the track faster than the Viper driver. I think both companies did an awesome job on these cars and they are both American cars.

 

[Lawrenzo]

The "END OF THE WORLD" coming in 3 days will be cat's milk compared to this thread !
Ralph will send his chosen driver back to LS, beat the record and this same Gen V will be a wonderfull car again.

The problem with this scenario is that you no longer have the same track conditions, and even if they bring the "same" car there will be people who suspect some extra factory tweaking before the retry. Everybody always wants to see "same day/same driver" comparisons, yet when a magazine finally does it nobody is happy.

The cat's out of the bag, and all the marketing spin in the world can't put it back in(and if Ralph's not carefull he's going to get fired by his Italian masters). Time to move on folks and enjoy your new rides when they arrive. And, if you want to heavily modify your Viper then simply get a Gen 2 or 3!

 

[eucharistos]

SRT is in the house.

Bruce

hmmm.... i think it would be cool for SRT to train a nobody viper owner

(from houston)

to run the gen v correctly at LS and have him (me) show the bowtie boys how it is done

i wonder when they will call me....eerrrr....him

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

I think what MT said is that they would redo the test, meaning that Pobst would re drive the ZR1 and one of the engineers (who has more seat time and maybe B**** then Randy) would drive the GTS. Same cars same day same track. If the results change then MT would have some splanin to do huh?

The problem with this scenario is that you no longer have the same track conditions, and even if they bring the "same" car there will be people who suspect some extra factory tweaking before the retry. Everybody always wants to see "same day/same driver" comparisons, yet when a magazine finally does it nobody is happy.

The cat's out of the bag, and all the marketing spin in the world can't put it back in(and if Ralph's not carefull he's going to get fired by his Italian masters). Time to move on folks and enjoy your new rides when they arrive. And, if you want to heavily modify your Viper then simply get a Gen 2 or 3!

 

[stingray23]

The problem with this scenario is that you no longer have the same track conditions, and even if they bring the "same" car there will be people who suspect some extra factory tweaking before the retry. Everybody always wants to see "same day/same driver" comparisons, yet when a magazine finally does it nobody is happy.

The cat's out of the bag, and all the marketing spin in the world can't put it back in(and if Ralph's not carefull he's going to get fired by his Italian masters). Time to move on folks and enjoy your new rides when they arrive. And, if you want to heavily modify your Viper then simply get a Gen 2 or 3!

Exactly. Reality is a *****.

 

[SnakeBitten]

I think what MT said is that they would redo the test, meaning that Pobst would re drive the ZR1 and one of the engineers (who has more seat time and maybe B**** then Randy) would drive the GTS. Same cars same day same track. If the results change then MT would have some splanin to do huh?

That would be the ticket but I doubt MT would accept that offer as it would show them and their test driver extraordinaire Pobst up. That would render MT's tests past and present suspect if Randy is shown to be the problem with that 2.1 sec gap. Just dont see MT taking that chance. If anything they will re run it but with Randy driving both again.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

I'm going to ask for your racing credentials because my 2 karting buddies from earlier this year can testify that I have what it takes to haul ass down the Charlotte Motor Speedway karting track and hunt down the race leader in 2nd place They wouldn't believe that I am not karting on a regular basis

hmmm.... i think it would be cool for SRT to train a nobody viper owner

(from houston)

to run the gen v correctly at LS and have him (me) show the bowtie boys how it is done

i wonder when they will call me....eerrrr....him

 

[Coloviper]

Disappointed in Motor Trend! I would not trust these numbers or this MT report as anything beyond just plain reading material because reality is, it is a car magazine and what sells magazines. Controversy!!!!!! They have zero credibility and always have with their BS comparos to winning status for their sponsors. I mean, they are driving, a more than likely hotter than average ZR1 against a pre-production Viper car. To think Corvette did not have the hot one sitting and waiting for this test, you would have to be an idiot. Tires alone will make up this time difference and confidence feel. I mean one had shaved race ready tires and the Viper most likely had Pirellis pulled off the shelf at Tire Rack and sent to Michigan for the car. I will say I have been and remain suspect of the switch from Michelin to Pirelli. I just have never had a good Pirelli Tire EVER, so that is one thing that should be looked at by SRT, despite whether Michelin submitted a bid for the tire contract or not. They need to look into that. Now Randy is a great driver, but if he is not pushing things to their limit, then shame on him for being un-professional. To say he did not have confidence in the car to push it. Sorry but that is a cop-out for a professional racer to make in a closed track environment. Shame on Randy! The magnetic shocks will help on launch but once the car is moving, if set-up properly, then that should be a wash. The carbon brakes, I can see an advantage here with the carbon discs and multi-piston caliper set-up on the vette. Again, this is something Viper should look into as an option. Take a set from the big brother in Italy and test it. They have them.

Truth be told, either car or even the runners up, are driven on this track a lot harder than I would drive them with my measley experience and most likely 95% of all Viper owners. So they are all very fast. You have to look at the report to tell you what is really going on here. For MT to complain about the Viper's new interior and seats is the sure sign something is not right and a bias is placed on this report from the get go. Of all the cars I have been in and seen, the new Viper Interior is amongst the most beautiful and most thought out interior amongst them. In top form with the best leather optioned out, it is fantastic. To say otherwise is simply unprofessional and childish.

Ralph and crew need to disect the data, go out there and test THAT specific car again to confirm the data and then refine the car based upon it. If there is something wrong with that specific car, then understand what and fix them on all cars. That is the QA/QC expected in the professional world.

Guys, there is a reason there are no hard numbers on the Vipers advertising yet. IT IS STILL BEING SORTED OUT, despite production even starting they are working on it. Viper has always been a best of breed car and this one will be no exception. It will be tuned and revised along the way as production goes. It is literally 1992 all over again, when looking at TC, etc. This is the only way a small vehicle manufacturer like SRT can exist and keep cash flow. EVERYONE needs to remember this is a big V-10 NA. Sure it is easy to get 700 HP or 750 HP out of that motor; in a motor with these cubes absolutely. Doing it and meeting EPA regulations is a whole other ball game. It is not that simple. I suspect this is why there are no hard numbers coming out yet because it is NOT SORTED OUT yet. It will be, you can rest assured. Anyone who has bought small volume sports or exotic cars like this will understand it happens. I mean when the 99' S351Rs came out, hard performance numbers were not published until almost December 1999. Why you ask? Because the car was being refined and had to go through the mass of EPA tests to be certified. However guess what? Saleen had already sold 46 of them out there and covered it with a $5,000 Gas Guzzler fee on purchase. Then when everything was worked out with the EPA, they credited back the difference between $5k and what the EPA approved configuration was. Then they also pulled the cars out there back to the dealers with a recall and updated the configuration. It happens when on a tight timeframe with a small volume car.

Look we wanted a new Viper, we got it. We did not want to wait, so we got what we got in the timeframe and with whatever budget Sergio allowed. It is still better than 95% of the competition out there. Remember, how does this look for Parent Company Fiat when a loaded up GTS beats the tar out of the halo 458? We have to take things into perspective. The only down-fall in looking at all this is the price. This is where SRT needs to be very careful. You can not charge an arm and a leg like $150K for a full load GTS and have issues with the car if it is meant to be much more. In my opinion, they should have just had an base SRT this year at the cheaper amount and then rolled out the GTS and convertible in another year, and then the ACR. The problem is the silver spooners with endless supplies of money are all about reading this fantasy in the magazines and believing it. It is bragging rights without earning them for yourself with your own driving ablities. Problem is many of these guys are the new clientele to the Viper will have. The MT article will hurt some sales, but reality is those guys were on the fence anyway.

Ralph, do not sink down to the TMZ MT level of those idiots. Remain professional, calm, cool and collected. Take that car back out to Laguna and run it hard, to within an inch of it's life as well as another track pack car that has been dyno'd and you know is a better base and then post the results, which I am sure will be much better than what is shown by MT.

This thread is interesting as I would have not expected as many people to say they are canceling their orders and this negative and that negative. True car guys will say, well best two of three and admit, you got me that day at that race and move on. Look NHRA guys with 10,000 HP cars get the tar beat out of them sometimes in the races. Does that mean their car is that much worse or underpowered, or whatever. Not it doesn't. It just happens to the best of them sometimes. It is unfortunate for MT to report as they have as I do believe their report is very biased, right from the start. However the negativity of this thread is insane. When did Viper owners really care about what a car magazine has to say? Grow up and have faith SRT will resolve the issue.

Otherwise I will thrown another one at you. If the Viper would have killed the Vette by two seconds but did it with flappy paddles, would the same negativity be thrown around here. I don't thing so! Everyone would have been dancing in the streets. Pretty hipocritical!

 

[bluestreak]

Why is everyone so quick to say, 'it could be a $150k car" so .... How about this, it could be a $103k car (with track pack) and turn those #s, or even better. For that money, those aren't good #'s??

Am I a little disappointed in the report, yea, but frankly, if I was in a bathroom and there was a new issue of Motro Trend and toilet paper, I'd use the Motor Trend and read the toilet paper. I'm just glad Ralph's pissed, hey, Ralph, go embarrass these guys with your own driver & show them some #'s.

The drama queens keep ignoring that fact. It does not help their over exaggerated claims of dissapointment over a performance aspect that many of them would never test in the first place. And if they did would probably blame the car for why they are slow. When some real road racers are complaining, then there will be something worth listening to.

 

[chorps]

Disappointed in Motor Trend! I would not trust these numbers or this MT report as anything beyond just plain reading material because reality is, it is a car magazine and what sells magazines. Controversy!!!!!! They have zero credibility and always have with their BS comparos to winning status for their sponsors. I mean, they are driving, a more than likely hotter than average ZR1 against a pre-production Viper car... Now Randy is a great driver, but if he is not pushing things to their limit, then shame on him for being un-professional. To say he did not have confidence in the car to push it. Sorry but that is a cop-out for a professional racer to make in a closed track environment. Shame on Randy!

...

Otherwise I will thrown another one at you. If the Viper would have killed the Vette by two seconds but did it with flappy paddles, would the same negativity be thrown around here. I don't thing so! Everyone would have been dancing in the streets. Pretty hipocritical!

I'd say the magazines do have their biases, but don't shoot the messenger. Motor Trend wouldn't be that far out of line with the other magazines/blogs or else their credibility would go into the toilet, although some may argue that they never had any credibility to begin with.

Bottom line is that a pro driver, well-known and credentialed, drove both cars and went faster in the one you weren't rooting for. If the Viper is more vague about its limits than the Corvette's, then I'd say it should be incumbent on SRT to fine tune the GTS so that it communicates better at the extreme limit. I'm pretty sure this is what happened when the C6 Z06 and the C6 ZR1 were introduced, they were underperforming (as reported by the magazines etc.) because they needed a lot of fine tuning but over the years they have become formidable cars, if not the fastest track vehicles. If the GTS' Pirellis aren't running as well as the Michelins, then Pirelli better step it up or else SRT should ask Michelin to dance.

 

[Jack B]

After reading the thread - a personal opinion of what I think I have seen:

1. I was one of the first to purchase the Gen V. I now have a 97 and I am going to love them both.

2. I did not understand why SRT would agree to such an early side-by-side comparison with a car that has been perfected over several years. This was a no-win scenario. If they won, the excuse would be, the corvette is an old model. If they were to lose - that is now obvious.

3. When I heard about the comparison I immediately thought the vette would win this first encounter.

4. This "end of the world" hysteria has not affected my decision about the purchase.

5. It seems as though non-viper owners posting on this forum are a big part of the "end of the world" frenzy. if I am wrong about that I apologize.

6. The corvette forum is not as critical as some of the posts in this thread. How is it that the "enemy" seems more professional and in control. This was even before the comparison.

7. Why are so many positive improvements in the Gen V all of a sudden forgotten.

8. Getting back to the SRT for allowing such an early test, they will now have to be very definitive and outline what and when will happen next. If they do not react in a positive manner things can only get worst.

9. A specific issue I am tired of reading about are the brakes. Everyone is complaining about the brakes. If the existing ACR (remember the ring) had little if no problems and the Gen V has more brake cooling, less overall weight and an optional two piece rotor set-up, why is the new brake set-up so bad. Keep in mind, unless I missed it, the viper in the comparison did not have the two piece rotors. I believe as a stand-alone optionthe cost is $2,800, or it does come in the track pack. Why don't we wait to see if that option helps the braking before,we slice and dice the whole car.