More powerful Viper? No, NOT the 2008!

[Vic]

The Audis have been doing quite well in ALMS road racing, with their high-torque diesel engines.

 

[MoparMan]

That's always going to be the case. There will always be R&D that will have mules more awesome than the current production cars. But this whole air of whisper hush hush "I know a secret... somebody who knows somebody who has heard a rumor" mentality is silly.

It's just stating the obvious, then throwing yourself into the story.

Read my sentence again. It was only intended to pass on something picked up on another web site from a usually reliable source. No where was it stated that this is fact and no where did I "throw myself into the story." Nice rant on your part, though.

 

[The Great One]

Everyone is guessing here, but it is fun. Horsepower not only makes people feel good...it also sells cars and gives bragging rights and makes for good rag cover.

One thing that does give the rumor credence is that back in the summer Viper magazine, the engineers admitted that the 08 was rushed to production. That it was basically a quick response to being trounced in the rags and at the strip by the Z06. ALSO, remember when they came into this forum some months back the engineers said they would be ready to respond to the ZR1....so that definitely means something is afoot.

Just playing devils advocate here, but what if Dodges "response" to the ZR1 was the ACR?

 

[black08]

I was wondering the same thing. When the SRT engineers said they had something ready for the ZR1, perhaps they were referring to the then secret ACR. ACR, plus the 75 hp upgrade that Mopar is allegedly coming out with, would destroy the ZR1 on a road course. Is this what they meant or was it something altogether different?

 

[Stealth]

It was, I think, Shelby who said: "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."
And like stereo, it's not how many watts, but how much dB the system makes. In other words, it matters not how much power you have if you can't lay it down efficiently.

I think the quote might be backwards... . Torque is definitely useful getting the car moving and coming out of corners,etc. but hp is necessary to keep the car pulling. There is also a limit to how much torque is usable--limit of adhesion. You see evidence of this in the power profiles of most exotics and race cars--more hp than torque (Audi Diesel racer cars excepted).

 

[Warfang]

Read my sentence again. It was only intended to pass on something picked up on another web site from a usually reliable source. No where was it stated that this is fact and no where did I "throw myself into the story." Nice rant on your part, though.

I was just expanding what you said. Sorry if you read that as an attack on you. I was referring to the original poster putting himself into an already unverifiable and unsubstantiated rumor.

 

[black mamba1]

Just playing devils advocate here, but what if Dodges "response" to the ZR1 was the ACR?

At the risk of sounding like an assh*le, when you respond to something, you wait until you have something to respond to. THe ACR was released b4 the ZR1, so that would not be a response.

Also, it has been rumored for over a year that the Blue Devil Vette, SS Vette, Stingray, and what finally came out to be the ZR1 was supposed to have 650 to 675 hp...hell, I even heard that this mighty Vette might have 750 hp! If Dodge's response to a 650-750 hp Vette was a 600 hp Viper w/ an aero kit....well lets just say Cerebus might be puff-puff-passing if that is their thought process.

I fully anticipate the Dodge boys to release something very formidable now that Chevy has shown their hand. I certainly think 675 hp ACR and a lighter car than the ZR1 would do it.

 

[MoparMan]

I was just expanding what you said. Sorry if you read that as an attack on you. I was referring to the original poster putting himself into an already unverifiable and unsubstantiated rumor.

Since you quoted me, I just assumed you meant me. Sounds like this is nothing but a typical online misunderstanding. BTW: I agree with you about the original poster.

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

HP... HP... HP... It's all about torque! Just like hearing kids talk about "watts" in their stereo systems. It's not about how many watts, its about the quality of the watts, which is not measured by the number of watts. Sorry for the sideways direction of this post.

+1 and well stated!!!!

 

[Torquemonster]

How about: 4 valve heads, 12:1 compression on pump gas, variable length intake tract, Dual Stage Fuel Injection with shower-type injectors, and exhaust power valve with Ti butterfly valves - like in the Japanese crotch rocket engines those little old ladies are building on assembly lines everyday ?

Have it ready by 2009 please

I'd like to add...

and please change the firing order to odd to bring in that big block sound, and keep it over 500 cubic inches

Thanks

If a 572 Indy Mopar wedge or Hemi can make a very streetable 850hp, imagine this!

As for Hp vs Tq - 2 sides of the same coin, but if forced to choose HP = work done over time i.e. measures the speed at which work is done. So Hp is a speed measurement of how much work can be done in a given time, TQ is just twisting force... which is no good if it takes all day...

so sorry guys - HP wins races and rpm and gearing makes up for less engine TQ.

 

[Torquemonster]

The Audis have been doing quite well in ALMS road racing, with their high-torque diesel engines.

Hey Vic - good to see you still around

Those diesels also make very good horsepower, which is a function of ultra high fuel pressures and turbocharging.

As someone said earlier, average HP over the rpm range raced is the most useful measurement for the engine.

If you want to talk about TQ you need to talk about total TQ at the wheels which takes gearing into account... once you do that cars are more comparable and yes - total TQ at wheels matters.... but the car likely to have the most will GENERALLY be the one that makes the most HP over the rpm range raced.

Vic - imagine if the rules allowed 5.5 liter race gas twin turbo engines with common rail direct injection! The 917/30 Can Am made 1500hp in testing and raced at 1100hp in 1973. Imagine what they'd do today. F1 got 1200hp+ out of 1.5 liters!!

Diesel only looks good when it races against a very restricted gas engine, oncork that gas engine and the diesel will remain a slow oil burner by comparison. Diesels may burn cleaner but they use more oil because there is more crude oil in diesel than in gas... so for those interested in saving our oil resources - diesel is worse than pump gas... or does their better economy make up for it??

 

[The Great One]

At the risk of sounding like an assh*le, when you respond to something, you wait until you have something to respond to. THe ACR was released b4 the ZR1, so that would not be a response.

Also, it has been rumored for over a year that the Blue Devil Vette, SS Vette, Stingray, and what finally came out to be the ZR1 was supposed to have 650 to 675 hp...hell, I even heard that this mighty Vette might have 750 hp! If Dodge's response to a 650-750 hp Vette was a 600 hp Viper w/ an aero kit....well lets just say Cerebus might be puff-puff-passing if that is their thought process.

I fully anticipate the Dodge boys to release something very formidable now that Chevy has shown their hand. I certainly think 675 hp ACR and a lighter car than the ZR1 would do it.

With all of the money that was put into R&D for the 08 and the ACR, do you really think that they are going to come out with something new for next year to compete with the ZR1? If you do, then I think you might be right up there with Cerebus on the puff-puff-passing.

The 08 is a completely new car. It would be one thing if they just added some horsepower to shut up the Z06 crowd, but they did a complete overhaul. Also, I highly doubt that Dodge would come out with a 600HP ACR for 08 and then increase the power for 09. I think the ACR was the "answer" to the ZR1 and it may be coming up short.

 

[black mamba1]

With all of the money that was put into R&D for the 08 and the ACR, do you really think that they are going to come out with something new for next year to compete with the ZR1? If you do, then I think you might be right up there with Cerebus on the puff-puff-passing.

The 08 is a completely new car. It would be one thing if they just added some horsepower to shut up the Z06 crowd, but they did a complete overhaul. Also, I highly doubt that Dodge would come out with a 600HP ACR for 08 and then increase the power for 09. I think the ACR was the "answer" to the ZR1 and it may be coming up short.

When the SRT engineers came into this forum last, the 600 hp 08 was already released. The engineers said they would be ready for the zr1 and were fully aware of what the Chevy guys were doing. To come out w/ a lighter car w/ the same power would be ridiculous in light of what they knew the competition was doing. It does not take much to get the 600 hp Viper close to 700 hp. The Mopar version is a good example.

 

[Flyntgr]

The service manager of my local dealer may not have "known" what he was talking about, but he said that all Dodge and Chrysler's engines next year will have Hemi heads. I don't know whether this is B.S., or whether, if true, it would apply to the Viper. Does anyone out there have any straingt poop on this?

 

[The Great One]

When the SRT engineers came into this forum last, the 600 hp 08 was already released. The engineers said they would be ready for the zr1 and were fully aware of what the Chevy guys were doing. To come out w/ a lighter car w/ the same power would be ridiculous in light of what they knew the competition was doing. It does not take much to get the 600 hp Viper close to 700 hp. The Mopar version is a good example.

When the SRT engineers came into this forum, the ACR was not released. So what you are saying is that when the SRT guys came here, what they were really saying was that they had something for the upcoming ZR1, and ANOTHER little something to keep us on the edge of our seats in the meantime? (ACR)

I don't understand how you think a completely new car will be scrapped and reworked for the very next model year. When in the history of cars has that ever happened?? I am all for the Viper truly being on top once again, but for now, the Chevy boys are going to be one-upping us yet again. They did it with the C6 Z06 and now they are going to do it with the new ZR1.

And one more thing..... I wouldn't put so much faith into the Mopar Version becoming the standard car. I am sure that there are some regulations that that specific car will not meet. If it was that easy, I am sure that they would have put those parts into the Gen IV/ACR already instead of just teasing us with them. Dodge has been known to taunt us with "possibilities" that end up being nothing more than just that. For example, the ASC Diamondback, and taking it back even further, the SRT Carbon Concept.

 

[Cobraken]

The hemi head was what I predicted the '08 would get. It would be cool, but would be a long time in coming. I understood that SRT tried the hemi head but rejected it.

 

[Vic]

Hey, Barry, nice to hear from 'ya!

Where you at? NZ? States?

Hey Vic - good to see you still around

Those diesels also make very good horsepower, which is a function of ultra high fuel pressures and turbocharging.

As someone said earlier, average HP over the rpm range raced is the most useful measurement for the engine.

If you want to talk about TQ you need to talk about total TQ at the wheels which takes gearing into account... once you do that cars are more comparable and yes - total TQ at wheels matters.... but the car likely to have the most will GENERALLY be the one that makes the most HP over the rpm range raced.

Vic - imagine if the rules allowed 5.5 liter race gas twin turbo engines with common rail direct injection! The 917/30 Can Am made 1500hp in testing and raced at 1100hp in 1973. Imagine what they'd do today. F1 got 1200hp+ out of 1.5 liters!!

Diesel only looks good when it races against a very restricted gas engine, oncork that gas engine and the diesel will remain a slow oil burner by comparison. Diesels may burn cleaner but they use more oil because there is more crude oil in diesel than in gas... so for those interested in saving our oil resources - diesel is worse than pump gas... or does their better economy make up for it??

 

[Vic]

The service manager of my local dealer may not have "known" what he was talking about, but he said that all Dodge and Chrysler's engines next year will have Hemi heads. I don't know whether this is B.S., or whether, if true, it would apply to the Viper. Does anyone out there have any straingt poop on this?

I'd take the service manager's word on it.


[heh heh, just kidding]

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

At the risk of sounding like an assh*le, when you respond to something, you wait until you have something to respond to. THe ACR was released b4 the ZR1, so that would not be a response.

Also, it has been rumored for over a year that the Blue Devil Vette, SS Vette, Stingray, and what finally came out to be the ZR1 was supposed to have 650 to 675 hp...hell, I even heard that this mighty Vette might have 750 hp! If Dodge's response to a 650-750 hp Vette was a 600 hp Viper w/ an aero kit....well lets just say Cerebus might be puff-puff-passing if that is their thought process.

I fully anticipate the Dodge boys to release something very formidable now that Chevy has shown their hand. I certainly think 675 hp ACR and a lighter car than the ZR1 would do it.

I dont know if you were around "back then" but these are the SAME GUYS who gave us the "wink, wink, nod, nod" Check an old post, where we were SURE the Viper Coupe was going to handle the c6z06..... how wrong we were.. and it didnt help these same guys that lead us astray were the dodge brass.. who told us not to worry...

I guess they meant, no worrying over spilled milk, its over... you lost.

Nope, if the ACR was (and probabably it was) the 'solution' to the zr1.... Dodge failed us once again, at keeping us on top. The new zr1 will beat our 08 SRT-10 and ACR... as the stock c6z06 already does a pretty damn good job of hanging with it.

I'm no chevy fan boy, but I sure wish our camp would stop telling stories around the camp fire and F'in make a car that takes no prisoners. They did it in 92, and 96... how about a repeat her boys.. 3 times the charm.

Jon

 

[Vic]

............

 

[Tusc]

I was never raised on HP vs TQ. Though I was raised on Shelby's statement about HP selling cars and TQ winning races. The way I always was instructed to look at it was (overall) Power to Weight ratio within traction limits.

If I had to take bold strokes at comparing the ZR1 to the ACR on the track... I think it will depend on the track. You put them nose to nose on anything with some fair straights and I suspect the ZR1 will dominate and block the ACR.

But if they compare on a track that is tight, focuses on handling and limits the opportunity for long WOT straightaways, the ACR ought to cut inside the ZR1 consistently.

That's as loose and unspecific as it gets, but that's my gut feeling on it until we get hard numbers.

As for a new project under way for the Viper to be a ZR1 killer.... it is possible given the deep attention to drivetrain survivability testing for the '08 and the fact that the current 600hp is well known to be below the maximum possible power to be rung out of the current combo. But I tend to think that it is not likely. We knew ahead of time about the GTS, the ACR and the GT-2 packages.... why would we then be unaware of a King of the Hill effort? Leaking it would only bolster Chrysler's position and that of the Viper vs. the ZR1.

If this new king car comes out, it would be cool.... but not wholly necessary. I don't look at Viper and feel it has lost anything to the ZR1. The impression the ZR1 gives me is that of a team that tried too hard and lost all touch with the product. Or maybe that it had two teams.... and the drivetrain team had their heads in the right spot but were dominated by the bean counters and the rest of it fell to ***.

If I WON a free ZR1, I'd still sell it and buy something else. That's how impressive it is. The Audi R8 is a performance car, but how impressive is it? That thing is fUgly.

 

[RTTTTed]

Um, now that the Grail Keeper has retired and his protege is taking over.. (The King is Dead; Long Live The King!)

How about: 4 valve heads, 12:1 compression on pump gas, variable length intake tract, Dual Stage Fuel Injection with shower-type injectors, and exhaust power valve with Ti butterfly valves - like in the Japanese crotch rocket engines those little old ladies are building on assembly lines everyday ?

Have it ready by 2009 please

The idea of the Viper concept was to beat everything with OLD technology. Hence the lack of computer aids to fight with while driving the Viper. No traction control to turn off, no useless stability control to stiffen the stiff shocks and no cup holders. 2 valve heads to compete with all the 4 valve and DOHC technology that's needed to try and keep up and still one of the top performance cars ever built. And since there's no 2009 vette yet, it's King again.

I think that if Dodge would have tossed the runcraps into the garbage as soon as the Viper got beat by a vette the Gen 3's would have stayed faster than the vette. GM switched from runflats so that they could beat the Viper - and it worked. Now, finally, Dodge disposed of the runflats and they;re back on top!

Ted

 

[Alexarz]

So runflats are the determining factor between these 2 cars? LMAO!! Did you forget that the '08 Viper gained over 100hp in '08? Why is everybody so sure that the ZR1 is going to whip the Viper in straights? Realistically, the Viper has 620hp not 600hp. The hp is about the same, the weight about the same.

Keep in mind that, during the years when the Viper dominated the corvette, Bob Lutz was very surprised that GM didn't do anything to stop it. He did not understand why Chevrolet allowed Dodge to continue being top of the hill. He also said that it is imperative that the Viper is ALWAYS faster than the vette. Now that he has changed sides, he is determined to stab the back of his former employers and put an end to the car that he feels he created. Some say he is raving like a ***** but I cannot see that. What I can see is an obvious new interest coming from GM, to topple the Viper.

 

[RTTTTed]

So runflats are the determining factor between these 2 cars? LMAO!! Did you forget that the '08 Viper gained over 100hp in '08? .

I meant that with the runflats the Viper couldn't even beat the vette with more hp, because the vette didn't have runcraps. With the extra 60hp the Gen3 had it could only keep up with the Gen 2 Viper ... because it had runcraps. Now that Dodge has finally dumped the runcraps the Viper is a whole new car. The PS2's are better than the Gen 2's PS1'. Now that the runcraps are gone I expect the Viper will kick the vette's ZR1 when/if it comes out next year. It certainly has no problem spanking the Z06. With PS2's it has a chance to kick ass.

Ted

 

[VENOMAHOLIC]

The hemi head was what I predicted the '08 would get. It would be cool, but would be a long time in coming. I understood that SRT tried the hemi head but rejected it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read that the hemi headed V-10 was too wide for the Viper engine compartment but was considered. Personally I am impressed with the fact that Chrysler kept the V-10 alive and added hp and tq and more cubic inches while still meeting tougher emissions.

Part of winning races is reliability and heat control and a supercharged car will be less reliable than an NA car over time and definitley will get heat soak. The ZR-1 is going to be useful mostly at the dragstrip and the Z06 will in the long run be more useful at the track.

 

[Vipermann]

Nope, if the ACR was (and probabably it was) the 'solution' to the zr1.... Dodge failed us once again, at keeping us on top. The new zr1 will beat our 08 SRT-10 and ACR... as the stock c6z06 already does a pretty damn good job of hanging with it.

I'm no chevy fan boy, but I sure wish our camp would stop telling stories around the camp fire and F'in make a car that takes no prisoners. They did it in 92, and 96... how about a repeat her boys.. 3 times the charm.

Sorry, but ... ummm ... no.

You know, I'm getting tired of folks with Gen 1/2 cars casting doubt on Gen3 cars (on this forum). I personally didn't like Vipers at all (even the GTS) until the Gen3 was built. And yet I don't spend time on the Gen1/2 forum talking about how far development and performance has passed those cars by.

The '08 SRT-10 beats the '08 C6Z06 -- in every way. Period.

And how does the '09 ZR1 beat the ACR? There's been no head-2-head test yet. 1/4 mile? WHO CARES. Ferrari, Porsche and other super cars don't measure the ultimate status of their performance in 1/4 mile times. Magazines barely even talk about 1/4 mile performance with those cars. They are not drag racing cars. Neither is the SRT-10, nor is the Z06 or ZR1. They are all designed for road racing performance. Tracks with TURNS. And most likely, the ACR will beat the ZR1 in lap times. Case closed, unless proven otherwise.

Now, if you want to talk about compromised turning, but straight ahead tire-smoking, like the coming Challenger or Camaro, then it's all about 1/4 mile times, and not much else.

Nonetheless, this is probably the top-of-the-line Viper for a long time, and maybe the end of the car's run. Talk of a 675HP ACR seems silly, since those Mopar parts (headers & exhaust) are off-road rated only, and Dodge has no interest in trying to sell off-road cars.

And Gen 1/2 owners need to be honest. History is not going to repeat. The only reason why those Vipers were so far ahead back then, was that nobody else was paying attention like the other car companies are doing now. Those days are gone. And as far as GTS timeless looks go, the C5 Corvette was probably better looking (with pop-up headlights) than today's C6 (Chevy has even said so), but the C5's performance can't begin to compare with today's cars. Original looks (subjectively) only count for so much. Neither can Viper Gen 1/2 performance measure up to today's cars.

So let's stop talking down about today's '08 with implied references to earlier Vipers. If you have an older Viper and love it, great. Go wax it. The '08 SRT-10 is unquestionably the best Viper that there's ever been, and an amazing car by any measure.

 

[The Great One]

Sorry, but ... ummm ... no.

You know, I'm getting tired of folks with Gen 1/2 cars casting doubt on Gen3 cars (on this forum). I personally didn't like Vipers at all (even the GTS) until the Gen3 was built. And yet I don't spend time on the Gen1/2 forum talking about how far development and performance has passed those cars by.

News flash...... the guy that you quoted actually has a Gen 3.

As per the rest of your post, the Viper wasn't always about a road course. If you really think that the Gen 1 was designed to be a king of the road course, you are on something.

The Viper is getting a reputation of being a good track car, but there was always that "brute horsepower" halo for the car. As it is turning out, they are loosing that halo because of the enemy from day 1.

 

[99 R/T 10]

News flash...... the guy that you quoted actually has a Gen 3.

Actually, he has several Gen IIIs (He got one for his dad )

 

[2002_Viper_GTS_ACR]

Actually, he has several Gen IIIs (He got one for his dad )

You got it. You just burried the *****. I got no problem with having differenting opinions from someone, but when they cant read a signature and see I have bought more GEN 3'S Then gen 2s... then whats the point in reading the rest of his rant...

Sorry... not only were you wrong about my experience and ownerhsip with gen 3s, but also where the 08/09 will compare to the zr1 when it debuts. Blindly believing in the SRT guys to deliver us at top of the hill... is what got us the loss in 06 and 07. I'm a realist, and I understand power to weight ratio... and we lost on paper.. and just like people said it wasnt true, when the c6z06 came out, tracks started proving what we all knew.. numbers dont lie... law of physics.


Jon

 

[Torquemonster]

Hey, Barry, nice to hear from 'ya!

Where you at? NZ? States?

Hi Vic

Living back in New Zealand, having a nice summer here All the best for 2008. You going to spring for one of the new 08's? Hard to argue with 600hp and a full factory warranty.