i would like to know what everyones take on the different ways to make hp. I would think that when going with N/A power it would be better for the engine becuase you have stronger parts rather than adding extreme hp to the stock parts. So fill me in with why u think one is better than another.
Naturally Aspired VS Forced Introduction...........
- Thread starter yellow02
- Start date
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Ok FWIW. N/A, Supercharged, Turbo or N2O, I think durability and dependability are directly related to the builder. The advantage to N/A that I see, is that there are fewer additional parts which translate to fewer things that can go wrong - very important to a road racer. But like I said, it’s up to the builder.
Regardless I gotta say, Levin’s superchargers are very tempting.
Regardless I gotta say, Levin’s superchargers are very tempting.
Gerald
Enthusiast
A drawback to N/A motors is that the compression is usually increased with stroke, etc. The motor will even pound itself even at idle.
With a S/C, N02, etc. the car can make even MORE power and still retain the total stock driveability of the car.
...somethings to consider...
Gerald
With a S/C, N02, etc. the car can make even MORE power and still retain the total stock driveability of the car.
...somethings to consider...
Gerald
Tom Welch
Enthusiast
Yellow,
First off, Happy Thanksgiving!
Your question doesn't really have a definate answer in my opinion. Different methods of arriving at higher horsepower levels are another item of what makes us all different.
You have to choose what will make you happy. My personal opinion(because you asked) is as follows and Im very sure that some will disagree while others will somewhat agree and even others will agree, if you know what I mean.
To make naturally aspirated horsepower in a Viper (500+ Rear Wheel) will give you one very good sounding car. To make much more than that will require many extra dollars in modifications as 500 RWHP seems to be the plateau for bolt-on type modifications. As you increase static compression to achieve higher HP levels, you put more strain on the engine internals, even if you change internals to withstand higher pressures. Remember also that your engine will always be pounding on itself with these more extensive mods that are required to achieve 550+ RWHP. Bearings and rings are "sacrificial parts" that are designed to take the abuse of pounding compression and for that reason they just don't last as long once higher power levels are achieved. Again, this lends itself to the question of what are you looking for in your viper. High naturally aspirated horsepower will require more maintenance and will degrade driveability. Its a cold hard fact, ask any top fuel dragster maintenance chief how long their 6000 hp engines last........he'll tell you "four passes if they are lucky"
Options to the above include Supercharging, Turbocharging, Nitrous Oxide Injection, and even a combination of some of these.
The most powerfull vipers(on the dyno) seem to be Supercharged with nitrous oxide injection. These motors have had extensive work perfomed on their internals to handle the intense pressure and stress. This all adds up to Dollars spent. They definately demand respect as they sound incredible under boost and post incredible MPH numbers on the track. Again, these High performing Supercharged Nitrous Combination Vipers have proven to be high in maintenance as their packages are being sorted out through R & D.
I like Nitrous Oxide Injection bolted on top of a 500-530 RWHP Viper engine. Smaller cams are more computer friendly which lend themselves to good driveability. A well thought out "top end" job with nitrous will put you with the best of the best at most dragstrip outings and maintenance is very low as your internals are stock and can easily withstand the momentary bursts of incredible power. There are vipers equipped with nitrous oxide on a mildly modified engine that make in excess of 950 ft/lbs of Rear Wheel torque and 700-800+ rear wheel horsepower. This is the least expensive method of achieving high power with a decent running Viper when nitrous is not in use. The drawback to nitrous is that the bottle needs to be refilled after about 12-15 full 1/4 mile passes. This is the equivelant of dozens of traffic light romps, maybe even several weekends worth of them.
Again, let your originality and depth of your pocket will be your guide to modding your viper. I live every day as if it were my last, and I don't expect to take anything with me when I leave this planet. So, if I could afford it, Id have a liquid hydrogen rocket fuel injection system and JADO assist attached to my Viper........after all of my current mods.
Best of luck,
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
97 GTS, BTR 750 SS PLUS, 680 RWHP @ 944 RWTQ, 10.30 at 140+ MPH
First off, Happy Thanksgiving!
Your question doesn't really have a definate answer in my opinion. Different methods of arriving at higher horsepower levels are another item of what makes us all different.
You have to choose what will make you happy. My personal opinion(because you asked) is as follows and Im very sure that some will disagree while others will somewhat agree and even others will agree, if you know what I mean.
To make naturally aspirated horsepower in a Viper (500+ Rear Wheel) will give you one very good sounding car. To make much more than that will require many extra dollars in modifications as 500 RWHP seems to be the plateau for bolt-on type modifications. As you increase static compression to achieve higher HP levels, you put more strain on the engine internals, even if you change internals to withstand higher pressures. Remember also that your engine will always be pounding on itself with these more extensive mods that are required to achieve 550+ RWHP. Bearings and rings are "sacrificial parts" that are designed to take the abuse of pounding compression and for that reason they just don't last as long once higher power levels are achieved. Again, this lends itself to the question of what are you looking for in your viper. High naturally aspirated horsepower will require more maintenance and will degrade driveability. Its a cold hard fact, ask any top fuel dragster maintenance chief how long their 6000 hp engines last........he'll tell you "four passes if they are lucky"
Options to the above include Supercharging, Turbocharging, Nitrous Oxide Injection, and even a combination of some of these.
The most powerfull vipers(on the dyno) seem to be Supercharged with nitrous oxide injection. These motors have had extensive work perfomed on their internals to handle the intense pressure and stress. This all adds up to Dollars spent. They definately demand respect as they sound incredible under boost and post incredible MPH numbers on the track. Again, these High performing Supercharged Nitrous Combination Vipers have proven to be high in maintenance as their packages are being sorted out through R & D.
I like Nitrous Oxide Injection bolted on top of a 500-530 RWHP Viper engine. Smaller cams are more computer friendly which lend themselves to good driveability. A well thought out "top end" job with nitrous will put you with the best of the best at most dragstrip outings and maintenance is very low as your internals are stock and can easily withstand the momentary bursts of incredible power. There are vipers equipped with nitrous oxide on a mildly modified engine that make in excess of 950 ft/lbs of Rear Wheel torque and 700-800+ rear wheel horsepower. This is the least expensive method of achieving high power with a decent running Viper when nitrous is not in use. The drawback to nitrous is that the bottle needs to be refilled after about 12-15 full 1/4 mile passes. This is the equivelant of dozens of traffic light romps, maybe even several weekends worth of them.
Again, let your originality and depth of your pocket will be your guide to modding your viper. I live every day as if it were my last, and I don't expect to take anything with me when I leave this planet. So, if I could afford it, Id have a liquid hydrogen rocket fuel injection system and JADO assist attached to my Viper........after all of my current mods.
Best of luck,
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
97 GTS, BTR 750 SS PLUS, 680 RWHP @ 944 RWTQ, 10.30 at 140+ MPH
TurboSnake
Enthusiast
BOOST,BOOST,BOOST!
Chuck B 98 GTS
Enthusiast
Boost!
Any high performance package requires some type of maintenance sooner of later. I've had a blower car for more than two years. The only maintenance I've had to perform has been changing the oil and keeping the proper tension on my belt. My car has nitrous on it with the blower. It is more important to maintain bottle pressure on my car than an N/A car. The supercharger street ability is much better than my past stroker engine car.
I don't use the bottle much if ever, but it's good to know it's there. You'll find more people going to the SC route (if willing to spend the money) than any other type of package. The supercharger is much easier on the engine and drivetrain than nitrous, and the wheel spin is much easier to control with the blower. On the other hand, the cheapest horsepower to make is with nitrous.
Happy holidays,
Chuck
Any high performance package requires some type of maintenance sooner of later. I've had a blower car for more than two years. The only maintenance I've had to perform has been changing the oil and keeping the proper tension on my belt. My car has nitrous on it with the blower. It is more important to maintain bottle pressure on my car than an N/A car. The supercharger street ability is much better than my past stroker engine car.
I don't use the bottle much if ever, but it's good to know it's there. You'll find more people going to the SC route (if willing to spend the money) than any other type of package. The supercharger is much easier on the engine and drivetrain than nitrous, and the wheel spin is much easier to control with the blower. On the other hand, the cheapest horsepower to make is with nitrous.
Happy holidays,
Chuck
Martin D
Enthusiast
I vote for N/A...Only because I have one!
I agree with Tom. If I decided to go the Nitrous, I could be in the Nines and 140's.
I also personally like the way my car sounds. It sounds like a Dragster at idle, and wails like an indy car at 6K. It is all about personal preferance though. I know other folks that go nuts over the whine of a supercharger. Good luck!
Regards.
I agree with Tom. If I decided to go the Nitrous, I could be in the Nines and 140's.
I also personally like the way my car sounds. It sounds like a Dragster at idle, and wails like an indy car at 6K. It is all about personal preferance though. I know other folks that go nuts over the whine of a supercharger. Good luck!
Regards.
Tom Welch
Enthusiast
Max,
I don't understand your questions and opinion. If you read my post, I gave good remarks for all types of power adders, and definately did not call for a cheap shot from you.
I've never been in insurance sales, as Im sure you've never been faster than the speed limit.
Im sorry if the truth hurts, but you have an overpriced package that is becoming just another bolt on item in todays market. Everyone and their brother is offering and or will be offering bolt on superchargers and turbochargers. Just ask Sean Roe, Heffners, Paxton, Dan Cragin, Lingenfelter, HMS and Golden West to name a few. I belly laugh everytime I think about what you spent and for what? Wheres your timeslips?, dyno sheets, anything??
Show us what you have for your money, other than big talk on the keyboard. Sam Walton would roll over in the grave if he took the kind of loss that you have on viper mods!
Take a cheap shot at me and get the truth in return!
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
I don't understand your questions and opinion. If you read my post, I gave good remarks for all types of power adders, and definately did not call for a cheap shot from you.
I've never been in insurance sales, as Im sure you've never been faster than the speed limit.
Im sorry if the truth hurts, but you have an overpriced package that is becoming just another bolt on item in todays market. Everyone and their brother is offering and or will be offering bolt on superchargers and turbochargers. Just ask Sean Roe, Heffners, Paxton, Dan Cragin, Lingenfelter, HMS and Golden West to name a few. I belly laugh everytime I think about what you spent and for what? Wheres your timeslips?, dyno sheets, anything??
Show us what you have for your money, other than big talk on the keyboard. Sam Walton would roll over in the grave if he took the kind of loss that you have on viper mods!
Take a cheap shot at me and get the truth in return!
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
treynor
Enthusiast
Woah! Cool it, both of you. If I wanted to hear obviously unfounded claims flying around, I'd pop over to the Supra forum -- I expect a higher class of smack on the Viper board.
Max -- Tom's systems have been proven, repeatedly, on the dyno and on the dragstrip. His packages offer more bang for the buck than any other tuner I know, and he includes safety equipment (rollbar, 5-points) appropriate for the power he delivers.
Tom -- Doug's work is far from 'bolt-on', and you know it. There are now a number of customers who have demonstrated the efficacy of his systems on the dyno and, at least in MPH, at the dragstrip (e.g. ScottP's 144 MPH run on stock pilots). Even his cheapest systems are power-competitive with NA systems costing twice as much, and I don't know of ANY tuner making the power as his Level III systems produce.
I'll offer my own $.02 on the topic of which approach is 'best' in a separate post after I cool off.
Max -- Tom's systems have been proven, repeatedly, on the dyno and on the dragstrip. His packages offer more bang for the buck than any other tuner I know, and he includes safety equipment (rollbar, 5-points) appropriate for the power he delivers.
Tom -- Doug's work is far from 'bolt-on', and you know it. There are now a number of customers who have demonstrated the efficacy of his systems on the dyno and, at least in MPH, at the dragstrip (e.g. ScottP's 144 MPH run on stock pilots). Even his cheapest systems are power-competitive with NA systems costing twice as much, and I don't know of ANY tuner making the power as his Level III systems produce.
I'll offer my own $.02 on the topic of which approach is 'best' in a separate post after I cool off.
treynor
Enthusiast
OK (I cool off fast) let's talk advantages and disavantages of the various options. There's something to be said for each.
Normally Aspirated:
Plusses: The "traditional" route, most real-world experience with longevity of mods, most appropriate for roadracing, most tuners offering packages, predictable powerband works well on the street, lack of externally-visible modifications make it easiest to get past smog police.
Minuses: Lowest power limits, most expensive per HP gained, usually louder and higher-emissions than other options at similar power level.
NOS:
Plusses: Least expensive per HP gained, highest torque, best for drag racing applications, not sensitive to outside air temp or altitude.
Minuses: Most stressful on engine (high torque), need to refill bottle regularly, most susceptible to engine-damaging malfunctions (stuck solenoid, NOS backfire, lean conditions), hard to use in bracket racing (variable power levels) and on street (high torque = wheelspin).
Supercharging:
Plusses: Higher power levels than available through NA, predictable powerband is easy to use on street, S/C whine under Viper hood impresses bystanders.
Minuses: mechanically more complex than N/A, heat buildup from air compression and parasitic drag leads to heat soak, poor choice for roadracing, ultimate power limits lower than turbocharging, proven systems offered by few vendors, S/C whine under Viper hood scares off potential street-racing victims
Turbocharging:
Plusses: Highest theoretical power output, no parasitic drag, BOV sound from under Viper hood awes bystanders.
Minuses: system complexity and expense, very few vendors and very few examples on the road, turbo lag reduces driveability on the street.
Normally Aspirated:
Plusses: The "traditional" route, most real-world experience with longevity of mods, most appropriate for roadracing, most tuners offering packages, predictable powerband works well on the street, lack of externally-visible modifications make it easiest to get past smog police.
Minuses: Lowest power limits, most expensive per HP gained, usually louder and higher-emissions than other options at similar power level.
NOS:
Plusses: Least expensive per HP gained, highest torque, best for drag racing applications, not sensitive to outside air temp or altitude.
Minuses: Most stressful on engine (high torque), need to refill bottle regularly, most susceptible to engine-damaging malfunctions (stuck solenoid, NOS backfire, lean conditions), hard to use in bracket racing (variable power levels) and on street (high torque = wheelspin).
Supercharging:
Plusses: Higher power levels than available through NA, predictable powerband is easy to use on street, S/C whine under Viper hood impresses bystanders.
Minuses: mechanically more complex than N/A, heat buildup from air compression and parasitic drag leads to heat soak, poor choice for roadracing, ultimate power limits lower than turbocharging, proven systems offered by few vendors, S/C whine under Viper hood scares off potential street-racing victims
Turbocharging:
Plusses: Highest theoretical power output, no parasitic drag, BOV sound from under Viper hood awes bystanders.
Minuses: system complexity and expense, very few vendors and very few examples on the road, turbo lag reduces driveability on the street.
Tom Welch
Enthusiast
Ben,
Well said, on both accounts. My post towards Max ***** was aimed at his uncalled for cheap shot. He is always posting crap, but never steps up to show what he has done. Just another talker.
As for DLM cars, I gave supercharged/nitrous cars like DLM cars praise in my original reply to the poster of this thread.
Max and his viper is kind of like having a beautiful woman with a crappy personality, no matter how good they look, they become ugly. Thats my opinion of ***** and his beltslinging **** of a car.
Lets run em Max!!
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
BTW, the only 9 second vipers on the planet(as of today) are running on motor with nitrous oxide injection. Hmmmm. It gets back to my original reply to the poster of this thread. Do what you want to your car. Don't bash someone for doing what they have done just because it isn't what you might choose to do.
Well said, on both accounts. My post towards Max ***** was aimed at his uncalled for cheap shot. He is always posting crap, but never steps up to show what he has done. Just another talker.
As for DLM cars, I gave supercharged/nitrous cars like DLM cars praise in my original reply to the poster of this thread.
Max and his viper is kind of like having a beautiful woman with a crappy personality, no matter how good they look, they become ugly. Thats my opinion of ***** and his beltslinging **** of a car.
Lets run em Max!!
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
BTW, the only 9 second vipers on the planet(as of today) are running on motor with nitrous oxide injection. Hmmmm. It gets back to my original reply to the poster of this thread. Do what you want to your car. Don't bash someone for doing what they have done just because it isn't what you might choose to do.
Tom Welch
Enthusiast
Ben,
To take things one step further, in an effort to continue answering to the original question of this thread, 3 years ago when I first started to look at tuners for my own viper there was only about three of them. There were NO tuners doing superchargers that I remember, at least they did not have a web address to be found at.
I wasn't willing to part with 40-50 thousand dollars on top of the purchase price of my car for an extra 150 hp, and in looking in my garage at 9, 8, and 7 second cars parked along side of my 12 second Viper, I decided to take matters into my own hands. Hence, BTR Performance. I don't knock anyone for using any other tuner in our industry, nor do I care. I might have felt differently about spending an extra 50 grand if money wasn't an object, but for me it was.
The one thing that no-one has addressed is the residual value of any of these different types of modifications. I have seen advertised in the Dupont Registry 650 hp vipers selling for less than the original price of the unmodded car. How much did that car cost to make the 650 hp? What about recent auctions of Highly modified vipers? This is not to be negative, but at some point one might want to consider what his horsepower is going to cost him in value of his investment in the future.
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
To take things one step further, in an effort to continue answering to the original question of this thread, 3 years ago when I first started to look at tuners for my own viper there was only about three of them. There were NO tuners doing superchargers that I remember, at least they did not have a web address to be found at.
I wasn't willing to part with 40-50 thousand dollars on top of the purchase price of my car for an extra 150 hp, and in looking in my garage at 9, 8, and 7 second cars parked along side of my 12 second Viper, I decided to take matters into my own hands. Hence, BTR Performance. I don't knock anyone for using any other tuner in our industry, nor do I care. I might have felt differently about spending an extra 50 grand if money wasn't an object, but for me it was.
The one thing that no-one has addressed is the residual value of any of these different types of modifications. I have seen advertised in the Dupont Registry 650 hp vipers selling for less than the original price of the unmodded car. How much did that car cost to make the 650 hp? What about recent auctions of Highly modified vipers? This is not to be negative, but at some point one might want to consider what his horsepower is going to cost him in value of his investment in the future.
Tom
Http://btrviper.com
Gerald
Enthusiast
"I wasn't willing to part with 40-50 thousand dollars on top of the purchase price of my car for an extra 150 hp"
Tom, what ARE you smoking!? Pass is this way bro!
Gerald
Tom, what ARE you smoking!? Pass is this way bro!
Gerald
treynor
Enthusiast
Gerald,
I think Tom's correct -- a few years ago, there wasn't as much web info available, and the major tuners (that is, the ones in the magazines, e.g. TNT, Hennessey) were charging over $30K for 550 RWHP packages which involved bored/stroked engines. The state of the art seems to have advanced considerably since then, as Hennessey and others now have 550 RWHP packages which use stock internals excluding cam.
Tom,
Points well taken. I wanted to be sure everyone was telling the whole truth.
Max, Chuck B,
How about it -- got dyno sheets or timeslips for your SC cars? Martin, Tom & I have all ponied up the vitals on our cars (in my case, many many times
). Not that I doubt a DLM engine's potency one iota, mind you, but it would be good to have more data points.
I think Tom's correct -- a few years ago, there wasn't as much web info available, and the major tuners (that is, the ones in the magazines, e.g. TNT, Hennessey) were charging over $30K for 550 RWHP packages which involved bored/stroked engines. The state of the art seems to have advanced considerably since then, as Hennessey and others now have 550 RWHP packages which use stock internals excluding cam.
Tom,
Points well taken. I wanted to be sure everyone was telling the whole truth.
Max, Chuck B,
How about it -- got dyno sheets or timeslips for your SC cars? Martin, Tom & I have all ponied up the vitals on our cars (in my case, many many times
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
The most powerfull vipers(on the dyno) seem to be Supercharged with nitrous oxide injection. These motors have had extensive work perfomed on their internals to handle the intense pressure and stress. This all adds up to Dollars spent. They definately demand respect as they sound incredible under boost and post incredible MPH numbers on the track. Again, these High performing Supercharged Nitrous Combination Vipers have proven to be high in maintenance as their packages are being sorted out through R & D.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom, thanks for posting so much information! I know right now Sam Walmart is looking down at you with envy!
May I ask you a few questions?
1) If I buy your bargain priced guaranteed 9 second head package, and I only run an 11.0 because something brakes, can I still be a member of your howdy dowdy club?
2) If I buy your nitrous system, will I need to use a 50 lb. bottle to run 12 - 15 full 1/4 mile nitrous passes?
3) Have you ever been an insurance salesman?
Thanks Tom, awaiting your response!
Max
The most powerfull vipers(on the dyno) seem to be Supercharged with nitrous oxide injection. These motors have had extensive work perfomed on their internals to handle the intense pressure and stress. This all adds up to Dollars spent. They definately demand respect as they sound incredible under boost and post incredible MPH numbers on the track. Again, these High performing Supercharged Nitrous Combination Vipers have proven to be high in maintenance as their packages are being sorted out through R & D.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom, thanks for posting so much information! I know right now Sam Walmart is looking down at you with envy!
May I ask you a few questions?
1) If I buy your bargain priced guaranteed 9 second head package, and I only run an 11.0 because something brakes, can I still be a member of your howdy dowdy club?
2) If I buy your nitrous system, will I need to use a 50 lb. bottle to run 12 - 15 full 1/4 mile nitrous passes?
3) Have you ever been an insurance salesman?
Thanks Tom, awaiting your response!
Max
blkasp1
Enthusiast
It's not a surprise, one of the hottest tuners in the Viper business is Doug Levin Motorsports. My office is only fifteen minutes away, I get to stop by now and then to check out the Viper seen. You can't imagine how many Viper engines they build and super charge. Vipers everywhere. It looks like a Dodge Assembly plant. It seems many people are willing to install super chargers now rather than nitrous. For those people the cost doesn't seem to affect them, they own an expensive car in the first place.
Just my opinion,
R.R.
Just my opinion,
R.R.
Yellow02-
I just spent about 1hr.10min replying to your post. While I was spellchecking the reply, my computer crashed!!! Arghhh!
Anyway, my fingers are exhausted. Call me at 408.562.1000 and I will be more than happy to go into more detail and cover what I originally tried to post.
In short, your goals and driving should determine your path.
Will you be using using your car primarily on the street, dragstrip, or road course? Do you plan on selling it anytime soon/Do you want to keep the resale as high as possible?
Dragstrip- Tough to beat Nitrous. Inexpensive, massive torque and power. Tough on engine internals since torque and stress is immediate. Under full throttle conditions, where you engine absorbs the most stress, it's not uncommon for your final compression ratio to jump to 16.0+:1. Engine builders tell me that when they tear down an engine, they can usually tell if it was using nitrous; on the Vipers in particular I hear it's evident in the bearings, rods, and rings. You don't hear much about Vipers blowing up engines from using nitrous, but believe me, they are out there...just too worried to post on the board (big brother).
Road course- Tough to beat naturally aspirated. Power is smooth and available all the time; car is more controllable and there are less points of failure, and if something goes wrong the results tend to be less catastrophic than any of the other options. Can't really use nitrous safely on the road course. Compared to supercharing/turbocharging, naturally aspirated cars tend to run cooler as well since it's not uncommon for forced induction cars to run around 16:1+ compression under full throttle too. It's not uncommon for forced induction cars to run into heat problems on the track. On the track, heat can be one of your worst enemies. Most naturally aspirated packages have much lower compression ratios under full throttle than any of the other choices while still using pump gas. We are living proof that naturally aspirated packages have become much more reasonably priced.
Street- I would lean towards naturally aspirated or supercharged/turbocharged. On the street, you probably won't encounter enough road to worry about running hot with forced induction. If straight line acceleration on the street is what you are looking for, then don't count out nitrous either. Another thing to consider is local laws. If required, can your car pass smog/tests. With a supercharger under the hood, you could run into some issues. NOS is easy to hide, and naturally aspirated is difficult to discern as well as long as your package has been tested. Don't forget about the limitations of your tires on the street. Too much torque/power and you will be wasting power while your tires spin. Unless you plan on going over 100mph frequently on the street, I would recommend that 650hp is plenty!
Resale- Since I have owned every combination you asked about, I can tell you that buyers tend to steer clear of nitrous cars, and lean towards naturally aspirated over supercharged/turbocharged ones. If you want to maximize resale value; my experience has led me to believe that naturally aspirated wins! However, don't expect to recoop your full investment though.
Final comments- For the reasons above, I lean towards the naturally aspirated path, especially since the pricing has become more reasonable. It offers you the greatest flexibility for driving conditions and styles; you can use the power everywhere and anywhere, and should offer thousands of miles of smiles with ultimate reliability and longevity.
Good luck in your journey!
Hope this helps!
-Wayne (LTHL VPR
I just spent about 1hr.10min replying to your post. While I was spellchecking the reply, my computer crashed!!! Arghhh!
Anyway, my fingers are exhausted. Call me at 408.562.1000 and I will be more than happy to go into more detail and cover what I originally tried to post.
In short, your goals and driving should determine your path.
Will you be using using your car primarily on the street, dragstrip, or road course? Do you plan on selling it anytime soon/Do you want to keep the resale as high as possible?
Dragstrip- Tough to beat Nitrous. Inexpensive, massive torque and power. Tough on engine internals since torque and stress is immediate. Under full throttle conditions, where you engine absorbs the most stress, it's not uncommon for your final compression ratio to jump to 16.0+:1. Engine builders tell me that when they tear down an engine, they can usually tell if it was using nitrous; on the Vipers in particular I hear it's evident in the bearings, rods, and rings. You don't hear much about Vipers blowing up engines from using nitrous, but believe me, they are out there...just too worried to post on the board (big brother).
Road course- Tough to beat naturally aspirated. Power is smooth and available all the time; car is more controllable and there are less points of failure, and if something goes wrong the results tend to be less catastrophic than any of the other options. Can't really use nitrous safely on the road course. Compared to supercharing/turbocharging, naturally aspirated cars tend to run cooler as well since it's not uncommon for forced induction cars to run around 16:1+ compression under full throttle too. It's not uncommon for forced induction cars to run into heat problems on the track. On the track, heat can be one of your worst enemies. Most naturally aspirated packages have much lower compression ratios under full throttle than any of the other choices while still using pump gas. We are living proof that naturally aspirated packages have become much more reasonably priced.
Street- I would lean towards naturally aspirated or supercharged/turbocharged. On the street, you probably won't encounter enough road to worry about running hot with forced induction. If straight line acceleration on the street is what you are looking for, then don't count out nitrous either. Another thing to consider is local laws. If required, can your car pass smog/tests. With a supercharger under the hood, you could run into some issues. NOS is easy to hide, and naturally aspirated is difficult to discern as well as long as your package has been tested. Don't forget about the limitations of your tires on the street. Too much torque/power and you will be wasting power while your tires spin. Unless you plan on going over 100mph frequently on the street, I would recommend that 650hp is plenty!
Resale- Since I have owned every combination you asked about, I can tell you that buyers tend to steer clear of nitrous cars, and lean towards naturally aspirated over supercharged/turbocharged ones. If you want to maximize resale value; my experience has led me to believe that naturally aspirated wins! However, don't expect to recoop your full investment though.
Final comments- For the reasons above, I lean towards the naturally aspirated path, especially since the pricing has become more reasonable. It offers you the greatest flexibility for driving conditions and styles; you can use the power everywhere and anywhere, and should offer thousands of miles of smiles with ultimate reliability and longevity.
Good luck in your journey!
Hope this helps!
-Wayne (LTHL VPR
TOOOFST
Enthusiast
Here's some icing for the cake.NOS will keep you smiling.Literally.
If you have stupid money to spend and decide against NOS,You should have bought a lower dollar viper without a warranty.Then buy a tuner package and show off at your VCA event.
You'll need to see Mr.Dealer friendly from time to time(with that new 02) to replace/repair anything from paint defects to faulty shifter linkage.This animal aint perfect,close,but NOS set-up correctly(for quick removal) will allow this luxury.
Here's the icing,Throw a kit on,don't like it,throw it out.
Average basic viper mods cost $3000-4000.and most guys still can't drive the car into the 11's.I've watched guys spend 3-30,000 at viper drag events,almost brings a tear.
My 1st TOOFAST NOS customer went to the track,2nd time ever and ran 11.60@131mph.(2.1 60ft.)Stock 98 GTS.He can turn on the NOS and have power to the motor in -5 seconds.
Only to confuse you,hey its all good.I like WIN WIN situations
If you have stupid money to spend and decide against NOS,You should have bought a lower dollar viper without a warranty.Then buy a tuner package and show off at your VCA event.
You'll need to see Mr.Dealer friendly from time to time(with that new 02) to replace/repair anything from paint defects to faulty shifter linkage.This animal aint perfect,close,but NOS set-up correctly(for quick removal) will allow this luxury.
Here's the icing,Throw a kit on,don't like it,throw it out.
Average basic viper mods cost $3000-4000.and most guys still can't drive the car into the 11's.I've watched guys spend 3-30,000 at viper drag events,almost brings a tear.
My 1st TOOFAST NOS customer went to the track,2nd time ever and ran 11.60@131mph.(2.1 60ft.)Stock 98 GTS.He can turn on the NOS and have power to the motor in -5 seconds.
Only to confuse you,hey its all good.I like WIN WIN situations
I can say I've had both nitrous and now supercharger. Maybe others have had a better experience, I haven't. Nitrous was fun while it lasted but I used it less and less as time went on. At first, you use it ALL the time. Then after a while, less often. Then after chasing refills, monitoring bottle pressure, yada yada yada, it stinks! And then, one of the worst experiences of my life, I WON'T get into now.
In no way can it be compared to full time SC power. You would have to get your head examined to compare nitrous with a supercharger for the street. I have full time power all the time and it's exactly what I wanted. As far as talk about removing nitrous to enhance your resale value.......... YOU CAN BET I WOULD SLAP A NICE LAWSUIT TO SOMEBODY THAT MISREPRESENTED A CAR FOR SALE!
In hindsight, for what I paid to supercharge my car.... I would have paid more!
Good day,
Max Moran
In no way can it be compared to full time SC power. You would have to get your head examined to compare nitrous with a supercharger for the street. I have full time power all the time and it's exactly what I wanted. As far as talk about removing nitrous to enhance your resale value.......... YOU CAN BET I WOULD SLAP A NICE LAWSUIT TO SOMEBODY THAT MISREPRESENTED A CAR FOR SALE!
In hindsight, for what I paid to supercharge my car.... I would have paid more!
Good day,
Max Moran
MES
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
YOU CAN BET I WOULD SLAP A NICE LAWSUIT TO SOMEBODY THAT MISREPRESENTED A CAR FOR SALE!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a good one
When buying a USED car they are ALL sold "AS IS" unless there is an actual written warranty. The only exception is a SALVAGE TITLED car in which case, it must be disclosed prior to purchase. Even a wrecked car doesn't need to be disclosed to the buyer UNLESS it has a salvage title. The old saying applies here "let the buyer beware"
YOU CAN BET I WOULD SLAP A NICE LAWSUIT TO SOMEBODY THAT MISREPRESENTED A CAR FOR SALE!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a good one
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MaxedGTS:
YOU CAN BET I WOULD SLAP A NICE LAWSUIT TO SOMEBODY THAT MISREPRESENTED A CAR FOR SALE!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mes you'll be ok.... Slide a little closer to your monitor and read what I wrote.
Who's talking about "representation?" That would apply to "as is."
I said "MISrepresentation" That would apply to fraud.
Max
YOU CAN BET I WOULD SLAP A NICE LAWSUIT TO SOMEBODY THAT MISREPRESENTED A CAR FOR SALE!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mes you'll be ok.... Slide a little closer to your monitor and read what I wrote.
Who's talking about "representation?" That would apply to "as is."
I said "MISrepresentation" That would apply to fraud.
Max
Gerald
Enthusiast
I was in the market for a 96 to 99 GTS about 9 months ago. There were lots of nice deals out there to be had. Ran across a couple of Nitrous equipped cars. They were tempting, but I new they were track cars or run harder than normally modded vipers. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But with nitrous, they usually are tracked more often and I didnt' want to buy a car that visits the track often.
When I sold my Supercharged RT/10. It sold in about 2 weeks. First question the guy asked me was it ever at the track. I said only "once". It was at DLM's getting a SMALL shot of NO2 put on it. HE quickly said he wouldn't buy the car if I completed it. I called Doug and he stopped putting it on. I learned first hand twice that NO2 cars are MUCH harder to sell than N/A or S/C or Turbo'd cars....
My .02
Regards,
Gerald
When I sold my Supercharged RT/10. It sold in about 2 weeks. First question the guy asked me was it ever at the track. I said only "once". It was at DLM's getting a SMALL shot of NO2 put on it. HE quickly said he wouldn't buy the car if I completed it. I called Doug and he stopped putting it on. I learned first hand twice that NO2 cars are MUCH harder to sell than N/A or S/C or Turbo'd cars....
My .02
Regards,
Gerald
TOOOFST
Enthusiast
MAXED GTS wrote
"In no way can it be compared to full time SC power"
Hey Max lets give it a try eh.
1.How much was you SC.? My NOS kit cost $3000.
2.Whats your best 1/4 time/track stats?/mine are posted, to be revised this weekend @ GLD.
3.Whats your dyno sheet say?
4-100.If needed
MAXED GTS,I have respect for your SC and the works of DLM.Doug probably forgot what I haven't learned in 15yrs.NHRA motorsports and 17yrs or metal fabrication,BBBut my car is faster than yours for less money and I'm HHHappy!PS.Thankyou MES.Gerald,your right,but thats a different conversation!
"In no way can it be compared to full time SC power"
Hey Max lets give it a try eh.
1.How much was you SC.? My NOS kit cost $3000.
2.Whats your best 1/4 time/track stats?/mine are posted, to be revised this weekend @ GLD.
3.Whats your dyno sheet say?
4-100.If needed
MAXED GTS,I have respect for your SC and the works of DLM.Doug probably forgot what I haven't learned in 15yrs.NHRA motorsports and 17yrs or metal fabrication,BBBut my car is faster than yours for less money and I'm HHHappy!PS.Thankyou MES.Gerald,your right,but thats a different conversation!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TOOOFST:
MAXED GTS wrote
"In no way can it be compared to full time SC power"
Hey Max lets give it a try eh.
1.How much was you SC.? My NOS kit cost $3000.
2.Whats your best 1/4 time/track stats?/mine are posted, to be revised this weekend @ GLD.
3.Whats your dyno sheet say?
4-100.If needed
MAXED GTS,I have respect for your SC and the works of DLM.Doug probably forgot what I haven't learned in 15yrs.NHRA motorsports and 17yrs or metal fabrication,BBBut my car is faster than yours for less money and I'm HHHappy!PS.Thankyou MES.Gerald,your right,but thats a different conversation!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>1) Do I stutter? I said "FULL TIME SC POWER," Whatever I paid I would have paid more. Meaning I'll be paying for number three SC Viper very soon. Would you like to count my money for me??
2) Son, let's not go there..... I've had more N/A race cars for half the money that would embarrass your nitrous car. I'm glad YOU have a need to prove something to yourself... I DON'T, I'm perfectly happy with what I own. I have other ways to impress the chicks!
3) My dyno sheet say's: "I can make 10,000 dyno pulls and keep going without filling a single bottle or worry about loosing pressure," Thanks, but I'm not interested in your "dyno queen."
4) Have a nice day!
Don't mind my temperament, my wife says I can be a real SOB.
Have fun at the track and enjoy your car,
Max
MAXED GTS wrote
"In no way can it be compared to full time SC power"
Hey Max lets give it a try eh.
1.How much was you SC.? My NOS kit cost $3000.
2.Whats your best 1/4 time/track stats?/mine are posted, to be revised this weekend @ GLD.
3.Whats your dyno sheet say?
4-100.If needed
MAXED GTS,I have respect for your SC and the works of DLM.Doug probably forgot what I haven't learned in 15yrs.NHRA motorsports and 17yrs or metal fabrication,BBBut my car is faster than yours for less money and I'm HHHappy!PS.Thankyou MES.Gerald,your right,but thats a different conversation!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>1) Do I stutter? I said "FULL TIME SC POWER," Whatever I paid I would have paid more. Meaning I'll be paying for number three SC Viper very soon. Would you like to count my money for me??
2) Son, let's not go there..... I've had more N/A race cars for half the money that would embarrass your nitrous car. I'm glad YOU have a need to prove something to yourself... I DON'T, I'm perfectly happy with what I own. I have other ways to impress the chicks!
3) My dyno sheet say's: "I can make 10,000 dyno pulls and keep going without filling a single bottle or worry about loosing pressure," Thanks, but I'm not interested in your "dyno queen."
4) Have a nice day!
Don't mind my temperament, my wife says I can be a real SOB.
Have fun at the track and enjoy your car,
Max
Nsane1
Enthusiast
Max-
I don't know you from adam, but I've read a few posts of yours, and let me tell you what I think. You can talk about all your knowledge, and all your money. But from where I sit, your wife is right. Your posts are not fun to read, they are downright abusive, and ridiculous.
I admittedly don't know squat on this subject compared to any of you guys, I'm looking at SCing my old viper, that's why I'm in this thread. Not only has this thread disuaded me from SCing, or NOSing, its almost made me darn sad to say I own a Viper with your posts.
What I do know is this: I have been on the viper board longer than 99% of the people on here, including yourself, (got on here in early 97), and I would classify your posts in the upper 1% of inflamatory posts.
Just adding wisdom where I know something.
For those of you who took the time and posted real answers, thanks very much. I'm looking at turning my 97 into a racecar, for drag, street, and roadcourse, and from what I read on here, building it up the NA route (or NOS, if I was inclined) for best well-rounded performance is the way to go. I was a little curious about how an SC affects roadcourse, and I'm happy to see numerous tidbits, so thanks.
Lots to think about.
I don't know you from adam, but I've read a few posts of yours, and let me tell you what I think. You can talk about all your knowledge, and all your money. But from where I sit, your wife is right. Your posts are not fun to read, they are downright abusive, and ridiculous.
I admittedly don't know squat on this subject compared to any of you guys, I'm looking at SCing my old viper, that's why I'm in this thread. Not only has this thread disuaded me from SCing, or NOSing, its almost made me darn sad to say I own a Viper with your posts.
What I do know is this: I have been on the viper board longer than 99% of the people on here, including yourself, (got on here in early 97), and I would classify your posts in the upper 1% of inflamatory posts.
Just adding wisdom where I know something.
For those of you who took the time and posted real answers, thanks very much. I'm looking at turning my 97 into a racecar, for drag, street, and roadcourse, and from what I read on here, building it up the NA route (or NOS, if I was inclined) for best well-rounded performance is the way to go. I was a little curious about how an SC affects roadcourse, and I'm happy to see numerous tidbits, so thanks.
Lots to think about.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nsane1:
Max-
Your posts are not fun to read, they are downright abusive, and ridiculous.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nsane1,
LOL......... So what's your point? WHY WOULD YOU spend the time and energy to write an essay to rebut on a post I made over a week ago that wasn't even directed towards you?? Better yet, WHY WOULD YOU even think I care what you have to say? I speak my mind and don't hide behind my keyboard. If you don't like my opinion: Don't read my future posts!
Thank you for your cooperation,
Max
Max-
Your posts are not fun to read, they are downright abusive, and ridiculous.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nsane1,
LOL......... So what's your point? WHY WOULD YOU spend the time and energy to write an essay to rebut on a post I made over a week ago that wasn't even directed towards you?? Better yet, WHY WOULD YOU even think I care what you have to say? I speak my mind and don't hide behind my keyboard. If you don't like my opinion: Don't read my future posts!
Thank you for your cooperation,
Max
speedpup
Enthusiast
There are better ways to get points across. Whoa!
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