Need Advise/92 Using Oil

[Jeff Torrey]

Chuck Tator got all the oil leaks straightened out for me last week. My car had been going through some oil. I thought it was leaking as I drove the car.

Well I put about 500 miles on the car last weekend.
When I checked the oil, I was down 3 quarts.

Chuck and I have been talking, it could be the rings. Bad rings would show up as blue exhaust smoke upon heavy excelleration.

Or it could be valve seals. That would show up as white smoke on cold starts.

The car does neither. The engine runs strong.

Chuck is authorised to do the engine work. To do the rings and update the head gaskets around $ 4,000.00

You could buy an awfull lot of oil for $ 4,000. But like most people around here. The car is an obsession of mine. I want it to run well. I do not want to leave a trail of smoke behind everywhere I go.

Has anyone worked or driven through this problem. Could it someday suddenly stop using oil?

Please advise and thanks.

 

[Jeff Torrey]

Mileage 20,000.

 

[Jeff Torrey]

eng12 BILL- My mom said; If You Do Not Have anything nice to say...Reference Fitzgerald's. I got nothing to say!

I have no recourse with those people. The satisfaction will come when I rebuild, repair and remind myself that I own a piece of automotive history. Number 192 of 285.

What goes around comes around. We have the power here to choose where we shop in the future.

Tator's
Woodhouse
Parts Rack
etc.

The folks that make owning a Viper just a little sweeter.

If the oil problem can not be worked out, the car is in Chuck's hands.

I put an additive in the fuel to try to free up the rings. The car must have sat garaged for a long time 9 years/ 14,000 miles. This may help. I am considering switching to a heavier oil as well.

Jon B said that every 92 has had this problem.


It is just my turn!

 

[Viper Wizard]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 1bad gts:
4000.00 seams a little high .Tators cost in parts(bearings,gaskets,rings,lifters, valve seals ,fluids is around 1000.00 leaving 3000 in labor . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be great if that's all that is required to fix it! Then the job would be around 2500, but if I told Jeff 2500 and when doing the job I find that we now need Heads and then tell him the job is now up to 4000??

This is not my first one.

When I estimate a job I try to take into consideration all possible scenarios.
All my jobs are priced on actual time and VCA Members 20% off on parts. No BS! I AM A VIPER CUSTOMER FIRST AND THEN A TECH/DEALER!
It is not as urgent as you make it out to be! Oil is cheep!

Jeff try [Valve-Kleen [NAPA]CRC 12OZ]. It may free up things?? OR NOT.

 

[FRANK]

Ok fellas...you're using 3 quarts in 500 miles.

1. Do you see blue smoke? Lots of it? If not, I cannot see burning 3 quarts in 500 miles unless you are puffing blue smoke.

2. Have you at least pulled the plugs? Are they fouled out? Wet and oily? If you're burning that much oil they will be fouled out.

3. Do a compression test or a leakdown test. Either tool is under $75. Put your mind at rest.

4. Before I would spend a penny. I would follow the above three steps. I find it hard to believe that the rings are shot. Keep it simple. Maybe you need valve stems seals. Easy to replace and cheap repair. What I find funny is as soon as there is a problem, everyone jumps to the worse case scenario. The plugs will tell you everything. The leakdown/compression test will also rule out certain things and confirm a problem if there is one. KEEP IT SIMPLE!

By the way, white smoke has nothing to do with bad valve seals. It has everything to do with bad head gaskets, etc. Burning oil is blue smoke I don't care under what condition.

 

[Bill 96 GTS]

Try another brand of oil. Use a non-synthetic and see if it improves.

 

[David Jenkins]

Darnit, I have to agree with 'ole Frank...ggggrrrrrr!! He's right though. 3 qts. in 500 should show something. I'd definitely leak test the motor first to get an idea of which cylinder is the worst. Hell, with that much oil consumption, the plugs will show it.
Bad, when the last time you priced out a set of factory main bearings?$$$$$$$$$ Also, my engine builder doesn't use a torque plate to bore, just hone. What's wrong with the shop sending the engine to the machine shop? That's the best place to get engine machine work done isn't it? I'm not dissan' Nick, there's no doubt his stuff makes power, but does he do the engine r&r or does he "farm" it out? Most race engine shops don't do r&r work. dj

 

[FRANK]

Ever think that since your 2000 car is literally brand new break in could have been the problem and seating of the rings...although 3 quarts seems a bit excessive...

If you're not burning the quarts of oil...it is going somewhere...3 quarts is alot of oil to just disappear...

 

[Jeff Torrey]

Ok Here goes. I pulled a spark plug. Plugs are not fouled. Tip was white.

I talked to Pat who has a 92 and a 93. He gave me some interesting info on 92's. All cars had this ring problem and in 98 DC was offering a rebuild on all 92's. That may have changed since Diamler stepped in (spelling?).

His contact was Charlie Brown III. I called today and left a message. His title "Viper Engines".

Took a ride to the beach this afternoon. I seem to be getting some belt noise now. Starting to get nervious about new noises.
On the on ramp to the freeway I was in 2nd gear holding at 4000 rpms. Went to accelerate and the engine hesitated at 4800 rpms. Like I was going to hit the rev. limiter. So I shifted to 3rd.

I put 2 quarts of oil in this week again. Four thousand dollars for a rebuild is starting to sink in.

As far as boring the cylinder walls. Chuck says the walls are sleeved and if they show wear. Then the can be re-sleeved. No boring.

Please advise.

 

[FRANK]

Well Jeff,

Did you pull all 10 plugs? If not, do so. If none are oil fouled, I seriously doubt you have a ring problem. Check for blue smoke. Check your exhaust tips for oily residue. If nothing is found (smoke, fouled oily plugs, residue near tips and inside of exhaust) I DOUBT you have a ring problem.

Next step...go buy a compression gauge for under $30 at your local Sears. See what you are at. All cylinders should be close to each other. I don't know what kind of pressure you should have on your car, but I would assume at least 140 psi.

3 quarts of oil in 500 miles...is alot and would/should show obvious signs that I mentioned before...

Have you had the car on a lift? No signs of oil leaking?

 

[Jeff Torrey]

Frank- It was leaking oil but that was taken care of last oil change. No oil leaking on the ground.

I will pull more plugs and report back.

 

[Hostile]

In reference to boring viper V10,manual says NO overbore.
pistons and sleaves are sold as "kit" the kit includes
liners,pistons,piston pins,piston rings and connecting rods
matched and fitted

 

[Jeff Torrey]

And I think that kit is $4500.00.

 

[Jeff Torrey]

I pulled 8 plugs. All show clean (white tips). I do not have the right exstention to get the other 2 plugs out tonight. No oil on exhaust tips. Dust on back of the cAR SOOT. Not oily.

How do I do the pressure test?

 

[FRANK]

Jeff,

If 8 of your plugs are white tipped and look almost normal your rings aren't the problem in my eyes. Also, rings usually wear evenly...so that also rules out the rings in my eyes.

As far a compression tester go to your local auto parts store or Sears and buy a cheap one. Remove all the plugs and connect it to one cylinder at a time and crank motor for highest reading (psi). Write down for each cylinder. You should be getting at least 130-140 in each cylinder. All cylinders should be within 10-20 psi of each other...the closer they are the better.

1 bad gts...why the hell are you still ranting about pistons, rods, etc. when in fact Jeff more than likely has another problem? Before a person sinks thousands into their car they should rule out everything. Can I ask you a question 1bad gts...have you ever assemebled a motor...just curious...

 

[Viper Wizard]

THANK YOU FRANK!

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Torrey:
Ok Here goes. I pulled a spark plug. Plugs are not fouled. Tip was white.

I talked to Pat who has a 92 and a 93. He gave me some interesting info on 92's. All cars had this ring problem and in 98 DC was offering a rebuild on all 92's. That may have changed since Diamler stepped in (spelling?).

His contact was Charlie Brown III. I called today and left a message. His title "Viper Engines".

Took a ride to the beach this afternoon. I seem to be getting some belt noise now. Starting to get nervious about new noises.
On the on ramp to the freeway I was in 2nd gear holding at 4000 rpms. Went to accelerate and the engine hesitated at 4800 rpms. Like I was going to hit the rev. limiter. So I shifted to 3rd.

I put 2 quarts of oil in this week again. Four thousand dollars for a rebuild is starting to sink in.

As far as boring the cylinder walls. Chuck says the walls are sleeved and if they show wear. Then the can be re-sleeved. No boring.

Please advise.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>*Everybody* has advised very good scenario's!

A leak down test IS a good start. And "yes" the '92's and some '93's had ring seating problems.

Onwards, there should be much to be considered estimating the cost of the rebuild. Four thousand dollars could be either too much or too little depending on the amount of detailed work your technician has to offer. A rebuild should be performed ONCE and now is the time to do it right! Personally, I would have estimated the job higher (No, I don't have any kids in college

), replacing ALL of the pistons and sleeves, improving oil scavenging, replacing ALL lifters, ALL head bolts, ALL bearings, timing chain and gears, check oil pump tolerances, polish crank, rebalance the entire rotating assembly, check block deck surface and last but not least - your heads; Your heads also offer longevity for your engine. Head work is NOT just for high performance applications. Good head work provides better cooling characteristics, anti detonation factors and will keep the carbon from building up for many, many miles. I applaud any mechanic that does the job thoroughly by encouraging you to do the job ONCE.

Don't seek to save money by cutting corners, you'll get exactly what you wish for!

Best Regards and Good Luck,
Doug Levin

 

[FRANK]

1 bad gts,

The reason why you don't see me at any "zone events" is because I have NOTHING in common with most Viper guys, other than owning one. Actually, I attended every Mopars at E-Town since 1988 - I don't even venture into the "Snake Pit." I bleed Mopar and grew up wrenching and building RB's for my Dart and other various 60's/70's Mopars.

You got a little snappy saying that I am not a Viper racer and I tasted your sarcasm. Since one good stab deserves another...here goes...basically you drank Pepsi while Nick put your motor together and you watched. I guess that qualifies as helping put the motor together...

I have three questions for you:

1. Do you own a motor stand?
2. Do you own a cherry picker?
3. Do you own a torque wrench?

If you answer no to two of the above you better stick to drinking your Pepsi or beverage of choice...remember anyone can pilot a car down the 1,320...not everyone can repair or build a car/motor...have a nice day...

 

[Joseph Houss]

Frank, Frank, Frank!

Joe's got a good point! Our NJ region has such a diverse group of gentlemen that it would be impossible for you NOT to find enjoyment from our events... AND, the events vary from "facia to the asphalt" road course events to 5 star dining at some of the premier restaurants in New Jersey! Car Shows, Rally's, Tech Sessions (thanks to Buhler Dodge), Drag racing, Autocross, and Roadcourse.... and camaraderie that can't be matched!

Please let us know if we're missing anyone of your interests, as we would like EVERY New Jersey Viper owner to be part of our happy family!

 

[Jeff Torrey]

Ok Guys-

I have e-mailed Fitzgeralds directly to work out or issues privately.

My major reason for starting this thread was; I was hoping someone would tell me that if I just drove the car eventually the rings would wear in and the engine would stop burning oil.

Didn't happen.

Looks like I will be setting up a trust fund as caretaker of this automobile.

**** , you see the thing is there is no turning back now. I absolutely have fallen head over heals in love with this car. My beat up olde 92

Got a stupid antenna on the back. Ya thats for the flag.

No freakin' real windows. One less thing to break.

The soft top leaks like crazy. You drive that car in the rain? Only if I planned a trip away from the kids on a long weekend, ith my wife.

No door handles? It's on a need to know basis.

No air conditioning. Ok, forget about it. You would hate this car! The gas mileage is terrible too.

...and the repair bills. The money!

Thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I do feel like part of this community.

Someone asked me yesterday: If I knew ahead how far I would have to travel to get the car serviced, would I have bought the car? My answer was yes. In a heartbeat. In fact the 3 hour ride down to Tator's in the rain was some of the best time I have had in the car. and the ride home when all the kids in the school bus in front of me got out of there seats to see the Viper,

Priceless!

 

[FRANK]

Maybe next year at E-Town I'll venture over and introduce myself. Like I said...I own a Viper just because it was a Mopar. It was a strectch to buy. I am not into racing my Viper at the track. I race my Dart and flog it on the quarter since it isn't a valuable car.

No I am not a member of the VCA. No I do not hang out with other Viper guys. When the herd goes one way I go the opposite direction...

 

[FRANK]

Rich,

If I wanted to hear from an ******* I would have farted...

 

[Jeff Torrey]

Update on this tread! I got my car back from Tator's on Thursday. I posted a thread obout it but wanted to close out this chapter and link it with the original thread.

Chuck and Rob (Tator's). Tore the engine down. Pulled the heads and pistons.

Changed the valve seals on the heads. Replaced the rings on the pistons. Inspected everything.

Replaced all the gaskets. Put everything backed together, updated the head gaskets. Re-torked everything.

Road tested it. After 350 miles and my observance of the break in proceedure. The fluids have not moved. THe engine runs much quieter, much calmer, much smoother. Chuck assures me that after break in the car should be much more responsive than before.

Chuck estimated the work to be around $ 4000. The bill came in at $ 4200. But I also had him put on a new set of hood hinges, so that more than covered the override.

If it was not for Chuck Tator and his service department I fear that I might have sold the car out of frustration. So thanks to Chuck Tator for his dedication and honest approuch to doing business with the Viper community.

Go Chuck, Do Dodge!

 

[Newport Viper]

Jeff got to know if this stuff works! If you want to play around with it and it will be going to be rebuilt anyway. Do us a product test. Go to restoreusa.com and see if this snake oil works. Do compression test before and after.
Anyone else ever try this? Restore. The factory says the large can will do it for our cars.

 

[Jeff Torrey]

Newport- I tried that first. Nothing. Did not work on my car. The rebuild is done! There was no avioding it, rings were a problem with 92's. I was told that it was corrected after the first 100 cars were built. My car is 192. Chuck had done one other 92. He told me that car had the same rings.

 

[Sniper]

****! I should've printed this one out for the throne!

This was a pretty d@mn good thread!!!