Need some helpful advise on headers

[Sniper]

Getting Borla headers but can't figure out which size to go with on a 94. 17113's give 8 more horsepower and about 6 more #'s of torque at the R.W., but the 17112's have the flextube and there's no need to drill a few notches to make fit. Just using the car for street, but I do want the car to be alot faster.

 

[ACR Joe]

If you want the car to go faster, pass on Borla in favor of Belanger. Quality, fit and finish, outstanding performance, ease of installation, awesome appearance. My $.02 worth!

 

[TOOOFST]

ACR Joe,just how fast?No question on HP increase.Do U have ET's before,After.Thanks

 

[Sean Roe]

We did some dyno tests a few months back and Tom Welch was there with his car along with one of his customers and their '97 GTS.
At that time, my '96 GTS had the Borla 17112 headers (the 1.5" primary tubes with 2.5" collectors), 2.5" high flow cats and a Borla cat back system with another set of Borla mufflers at the back to make it quiet. Both Tom's '97 and his customers '97 had the Balenger header and complete exhaust system (catless) and made about 10 more HP and around 15 or so ft lbs torque (I have the dyno sheets). The newest Borla 17113's make 7 more HP than the 17112's.
On the way from the dyno down to West Palm Beach, the customer with the '97 and I did a race in 4th gear from 60 MPH on up to about 135-140 MPH (like the dyno test). We both hit it at the same time with his passenger side mirror right next to my window. I expected his car to start walking away from mine, but it never happened. Both cars stayed side by side, both of us at full throttle. Afterward, we slowed down and each kind of shrugged our shoulders. The dyno graphs sure looked different on a piece of paper, but in the real world, the cars were about as close to identical as you could get.

On another note about the Balengers, good header, but it's made out of mild steel tubing. Mild steel tubing will rust, stainless steel doesn't. Stainless steel tubing is expensive, mild steel is not. 6 feet of 1" round plated carbon steel from a supply house is $30.02 where 6 feet of 1" round type 304 stainless steel is $69.28. Stainless steel transfers and radiates less heat than mild steel. The Balengers are coated with a ceramic coating that is below the exhaust gas temperature of the Viper's engine and the coating will deteriorate (remember that Jon B gets the used Balengers recoated). Manufacturers of stainless steel exhaust systems give million mile or lifetime warranties on their parts because they know that they last, where mild steel exhaust manufacturers do not. The Balenger Viper headers are a fine product, but they need to be priced like the mild steel headers and exhaust that they are. If you want a good quality header that will last, get one made of stainless steel. $4000 for a production street car mild steel exhaust system ??????? That would put a stainless steel system just like it at over $8,000. If you can buy a stainless steel Viper header and complete exhaust system for $2,300, how much do you think the mild steel set should be priced at? Food for thought.

 

[YellowSnake]

On Paolo Castellano's(VCA member)advice I spoke to Dan Cragin from Claude Short Dodge in Santa Monica, Ca. I told him that I wanted to use mod.s to increase my 1/4-mile time using stock tires. I asked specifically for a recommendation of parts.As far as Headers he recommended the CDI headers from Glen @ 760.598.6565. Because Paolo Castellano tells me that Dan Cragin has tested numerous headers on the same Viper and dynoed the results, it sounds like a good setup.

Good luck with your choice.

 

[Sniper]

Thanks everyone for the info!


Sean Roe is the man!

 

[Gerald]

Interesting Shawn..

What was the total number of HP gained from the Borla over stock?
It's also interesting that it's ONLY 10 less HP than the Belanger AND CATLESS system. I'm looking for an exhaust system in the near future. Could I expect nearly the same numbers with JUSt the headers or would I need the cat back installed also?


Regards,
Gerald

 

[Sean Roe]

Matt,
I'm far from being "the man", but thanks for the compliment. What I am though is my own hardest to please customer who wants to make sure he's getting his money's worth.

Gerald,
With Borla 17113 stainless headers (7 more HP than 17112's), high flow cats and cat back, you will be within approximately 3 HP and 7 ft lbs of torque of the Balenger header, high flow cat and Balenger cat back. The results will be the same if both systems do not have cats also. Both systems should net 47 and 50 rear wheel HP over completely stock systems respectively.
Your results may vary. The '97 GTS Tom's customer had at the dyno that day only picked up 23 to 27 rear wheel HP with the complete Balenger exhaust change on their car. But I know most cars with it usually get about 50 rwhp.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

How about some specs and prices on the CDI headers? Anybody?

 

[Tom Welch]

Well,

I just got home from 22 hours at the hospital with my wife as she delivered our daughter, to find this post and I guess I need to respond. First Id like to say that i have nothing against sean roe but here is the numbers as I have the dyno sheets also.

My customer ran 457 with just the headers and exhaust and 461 with smooth tubes added. All runs were in excess of 500 ft/lbs of torque. My car made 459 rwhp and 499 torque.

Seans car made 441 hp and I don't remember the torque but it was way down from our numbers.

Also Sean dialed in a vec-1 on my car and it proceded to LOOSE 10 ft/lbs torque with NO gain in power.

I beleive that Seans best all time dyno run as of that date was 448 hp and 482 torque??. Mine is 479 hp and 522 torque.

The bottom line is this, go ahead and save $500 bucks but when you loose to a Car with Belangers NO DOLLAR AMOUNT WILL MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER!!!!!.

As for materials, the stainless used in their header is barely stainless steel by specification, and if anyone can find any rust on mine anywhere(2 years and 5000 miles on the original coating) I will give them a free set of headers! Go out into your garages and you will see Aluminized steel exhaust on your daily driver that lasts hundreds of thousands of miles. Quality of workmanship and performance dictate price!

I suggest the following:

The southesast mini VOI is in July and Id like to challenge anyone with a borla header and exhaust to the clocks at gainesville raceways drag strip! All I will have is headers and exhaust....no smooth tubes, intakes etc. Sean, you can even run all of the computer gadgets in your inventory.

Have a nice night, im going to go sit with my kids.

Tom

P.S. tomorrow we will be launching a "not to be undersold" 60 day sale on our complete exhaust systems, so don't spend your money yet!

 

[ACR Joe]

TOOFST:

Legitimate question - "how fast"? At present, I can only give you a "seat-of-the-pants" answer - the car feels absolutely spectacular. I'll be joining the NJ gang at Englishtown on 6/1 so I should be able to give you a fully substantiated response subsequently.

Also, check BTR's web site for information on "why aluminized steel over stainless steel", then you be the judge. Moreover, the system fits like a glove - first class quality.

 

[YellowSnake]

FL Johnny 01-ACR:
As far as the O2 question, I spoke to Dan Cragin at (310) 828-0200 from Claude Short Dodge in Santa Monica, Ca. I told him that I wanted to use mod.s to increase my 1/4-mile time using stock tires. I asked specifically for a recommendation of parts. He said a great setup would be...
Headers: CDI headers from Glen @ 760.598.6565
Exhaust: from TNT Motorsports in TX
Cat:3" inlet and outlet hi-flow cat's made by CatGo

I asked about the O2 sensitivity issue and he said that if, before the install, I went to my dealership and had my engine reprogrammed that it would be OK. He said to specifically tell them about the SERVICE BULLITIN: 18-011-01, which calls for the tech to reprogram the engine.

Hope this helps, FL Johnny 01-ACR.

 

[wiseasp]

YELLOW SNAKE WROTE: "I asked about the O2 sensitivity issue and he said that if, before the install, I went to my dealership and had my engine reprogrammed that it would be OK. He said to specifically tell them about the SERVICE BULLITIN: 18-011-01, which calls for the tech to reprogram the engine."

Has anyone tried this service bulletin for the fix of the O2 sensors????

You must be registered for see images

thanks,
ROB

 

[LTHL VPR]

I have heard good things about the new 113s from Borla. I have not heard that you have to drill for fitment though. Sean Roe personally tests each set, and manys any modifications they require for you. Therefore, it should be only simple bolt-on. I don't think any other headers (other than Borlas 112) out there have flex tubing either.

I have used the Belangers and they made great power, but tended to leak. The BEST part about the BORLAs: You can get them from ROE RACING for much less than half the cost of the Belangers. The Belangers might make slightly more power, but is the difference worth $1500? I am hoping to see some more comparisons between the two.

Good Luck!!

 

[jcaspar1]

"The bottom line is this, go ahead and save $500 bucks but when you loose to a Car with Belangers NO DOLLAR AMOUNT WILL MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER!!!!!."

Tom, are you suggesting that you are dropping the price on the Belangers to $1699? If you did I think you might get alot of takers. Last time I checked they were still $2795?

 

[Ulysses]

The reprogramming sounds interesting. Im also curious if this works without breaking something else.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Comment on rust. I live in the rust belt. 268" of snow this past winter with literally hundreds of tons of salted sand applied to the roads all winter. In over 33 years of driving, I have yet to see a factory non-stainless header rust or corrode. I am not implying it never happens, but it is certainly very rare. As for aluminized steel tubing exhaust piping, I have used it for years, summer and winter, with never a rust problem.(over 500 hundred thousand miles) IMO, rust and corrosion is a non-issue for exhaust systems on a Viper. Most will never see corrosive conditions. Furthermore, if you factor in that stainless does not transfer or dissipate heat as well as 'mild' steel, it would seem the obvious choice would be to not use stainless.

 

[Sean Roe]

Hi Tom,

Notice in my post that I said the Balengers are a good header and I did not "promote" the Borla brand, only compared mild steel to stainless steel. I actually do tell people that if they want the most horsepower from a header, that the Balenger makes the most (I don't know anything about the ****** or CDI's yet). People who have called me and asked about headers can attest to this. Neither you or I actually make the headers, we just distribute them, so we have little "personal pride" at stake regarding this product.

Fact is, stainless steel tubing is better quality than mild steel tubing and it will last a lifetime. This applies to all brands of stainless steel headers, be they HMS, CDI, SVS, B&B or Borla Viper headers. Mild steel tubing headers will last a lifetime if you get them recoated every few years. I've owned many sets of ceramic coated headers and exhaust on street cars and racecars. Unless the physical properties of mild steel tubing have changed, eventually they will rust and deteriorate. Use a stainless steel header and a mild steel tubing header for a year regularly, take them off the cars and put them in a field for a year. The stainless will still look the same, the mild steel will not.

If you can sell the Balengers within $500 of our prices on the Borla system, more power to you brother! That's what the VCA members need. I would be happy to hear of it. Even at that point, the manufacturer and distributor will still be making a significant amount of money on a mild steel tubing product. Borla's Viper headers retail at $1889.99, jobber is $1417.49, we sell them at $1,199.00 to VCA members. Do you think I'm selling them at that price to make money, or because I believe they're a great value for the money and the others are all priced too high? If you and the other Balenger dealers priced the mild steel tube headers anywhere near the prices I offer (they should be the same or slightly less), you'd capture most all the Viper header market. If you did that, I'd stop selling Borla headers for the Viper. But, until then, I'm going to keep selling the Borla headers for $1,600 less and offering gains within a few HP on a dyno graph to keep the pressure on you and the other header dealers.

Regarding my GTS getting beat by another GTS with Balenger headers, I doubt that will happen because of the headers. It's been 17 years since I drag raced at a track and if you and I switched cars, you'd probably still beat me because of your drag race experience. I don't drive around on the street at full throttle and drag race other Vipers, so I'm just not worried about the couple HP difference on a dyno graph.

Congrats on the new baby. Make sure you stay safe when street racing.

 

[Sean Roe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve 00RT/10:
Comment on rust. I live in the rust belt. 268" of snow this past winter with literally hundreds of tons of salted sand applied to the roads all winter. In over 33 years of driving, I have yet to see a factory non-stainless header rust or corrode. I am not implying it never happens, but it is certainly very rare. As for aluminized steel tubing exhaust piping, I have used it for years, summer and winter, with never a rust problem.(over 500 hundred thousand miles) IMO, rust and corrosion is a non-issue for exhaust systems on a Viper. Most will never see corrosive conditions. Furthermore, if you factor in that stainless does not transfer or dissipate heat as well as 'mild' steel, it would seem the obvious choice would be to not use stainless.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Steve,

Regarding corrosion and rust being a non issue, ask Rocky Horde, aka Rocky Top on this board, to post pictures of his aluminized steel cat back exhaust system. We had his car in here a few months ago and the cat back was VERY rusty. His stainless headers were not. Let the pictures speak for themselves. The entire original equipment exhaust system on Vipers is made of stainless steel from the factory (except 1992 to 1997 cast iron exhaust manifolds). If you've never seen an aluminized mild steel exhaust system rust, stop by your local muffler shop and ask them if you can see what they're doing in there (replacing corroded exhaust systems).

Regarding your comment about stainless steel being the obvious choice not to use, ask any engine builder or performance exhaust manufacturer if it's better to keep the heat inside the pipe or not. Why do you think header wrap exists? Two reasons: 1. keeps the heat inside the pipe so the exhaust gas velocity stays up to create a better scavenging effect, 2. to keep heat from radiating into nearby components. As exhaust gas cools, it takes up less volume, which reduces it's velocity and reduces it's scavenging effect. You want to keep the heat inside the pipe and don't want it to radiate out. Stainless steel transfers and radiates less heat than mild steel by a large margin on a material properties scale. Titanium is even better.

There are always going to be personal opinions on exhaust systems and sounds, but mechanical properties and facts will remain the same.

 

[Tom Welch]

Sean,

I understand your position and believe it or not I appreciate your comments.

The price point comments that I made are in comparision to the sale that you have(the performance package with all of your goodies)currently on this board.

The Belanger Headers and cat-backs are still made by hand(with a few jigs),one at a time, by one person and that contributes to the price.

Personally, I like competition(as most people here already know)as it usually benefits the customers in the end with lower prices and/or better products!

As for street racing, you rode with me that night in Tampa, and I believe that we were the tamest of everyone. My biggest concern is for the experience of the other drivers. Anyways, these babies sure change ones attitude about doing wreckless things!

Take care, see you next month.......BTW feel free to swap cars with me anytime.

Tom

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Sean,

I will respectfully defer to your knowledge of heat and where it is necessary to keep it, although I believe Belanger does not espouse that theory. As for the aluminized tubing, Perhaps an ocean salt environment reacts differently than salt put on roads in the winter where I live. My muffler shop uses nothing but aluminized tubing unless someone insists on stainless. They tell me aluminized tubing in our winter environment will last 8-10 years if driven year round. Indefinitely if only run in the summer. I am proof of that as I have custom aluminized exhaust system with Walker mufflers on a 1990 SHO Taurus which is over 6 years old and has no corrosion. He also tells me he has seen stainless systems crystalize and crack around 100,000 miles. Many people don't see a 100K miles on a vehicle. Does Borla offer an unconditional warranty for subsequent owners or just the one who buys it originally? One last comment. Most Viper owners dust,wash,wax,polish,clean,and cover these cars probably more than any vehicle they previously owned. This greatly contributes to longevity of all the components.


Steve

 

[RockyTop]

I can verify Sean's remark that I have an aluminized steel cat back exhaust system (SVS brand). It is rusting, at least on the outside where it has been abraded by road debris, off track excursions etc. How much it is rusting inside, I haven't a clue. All I know is that the stainless was prohibitively priced at the time I bought my exhaust. Until it rusts and falls out on the street, I'm sticking with it ! The sound is great (with hi-flow Random Tech cats and mufflers inside the sills only), but not so loud that I am black-flagged during quiet time at RoadAtlanta on Sundays.

My only complaints about my SVS headers and exhaust are (i) price, (ii) the numerous burned plug wires, until I figured out how to rout them (and even then you may cook them ocassionally), and (iii) the burned O2 sensor lead wires (which have now been re-routed). Whether they make as much torque at the low end as some other brands I cannot say, but Dan Cragin or others have tested various brands and it seems like they said the Belangers made more low-end torque. I do know that I picked up about 35 rwhp due to the headers,exhaust and airbox (with an additonal 14 rwhp from K&Ns alone !).

My experience on the road racing track so far (the only place I go fast) has indicated that driver skill counts way more than relatively immaterial HP and torque gains. In fact, after watching Bobby Archer toast all comers at a Viper Days Finals at Roebling Road outside Savannah, many of whom had much more HP than Bobby, investing in seat time pays off way more.


Finally, I want to acknowledge Sean Roe's efforts to help all of us improve our cars at prices typically much lower than other tuners. Sean has repeatedly and unselfishly been available to me to answer my ignorant questions. Keep up the good work and the production/distribution of Viper-related products at good prices !

 

[ACR Joe]

FL JOHNNY is correct - what about that stinkin check engine light. And it's not just the 00 and 01 cars. 99's get the light as well. Who's got the fix? What is the fix?

 

[VEETENN]

Sean why did your VEC1 cause Tom's car to loose torque instead of gaining power??? I have been considering a VEC1 for my 98 GTS after I decide which headers to get.

 

[Tom Welch]

Brad,

My guess is that we did not give the computer adaquate time to learn the new settings. Sean can give you more on that. I still have it connected for a/f metering but have not done anymore testing with it. I do intend to try it in a reverse mode of what most use it for as we hope to retard timing for increasing the amount of nitrous that we can use.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

BTW..we are looking at a new device that will enable programmable settings of most of the viper computers functions via a laptop connection. I hope to have more on this soon.

 

[Sean Roe]

Tom's car was on the dyno and had just done a run or two and was pretty warm. With the car still strapped in place, we connected the calibrator and did one more pull (it was already on his car and we just had to make one connection). We did not take the time to properly tune the calibrator for his car and modifications as he was not there for that purpose. If we were there for tuning his car and took the time to do it right, the car would have picked up power.

 

[TomMiriViper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
I suggest the following:

The southesast mini VOI is in July and Id like to challenge anyone with a borla header and exhaust to the clocks at gainesville raceways drag strip! All I will have is headers and exhaust....no smooth tubes, intakes etc. Sean, you can even run all of the computer gadgets in your inventory.

Have a nice night, im going to go sit with my kids.

Tom
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hello Tom,
That race sounds like a fun challenge! Are you including racing with only exhaust or THE FULL WORKS?
Congrats on the newbie!

TomMiriViper

 

[Sean Roe]

Ok Tom,

I'm up for the drag race challenge of your $4,000 exhaust system versus my $3,500 package of exhaust, tubes, filters, flywheel and engine calibrator. What are we going to run for tires? My car has a set of Purner 325/30 18" fronts and 335/35 17" rears, hardly a good drag race setup. If you have a set of Purner slicks and skinny's or a set of tires that we could run on your car, then mine, that would be the best for comparison. I'll have to get Chuck B. or Phil Simms to drag race my car. I'm a road racer and would be at a huge disadvantage leaving from a standing start.

 

[Chuck 97 GTS]

So what is the consensus, will the Belanger headers need to be removed and recoated after a few years?? I'm in the market for an exhaust system so this is timely information for me. In addition to increased power and improved sound, I would like a system that is low maintenance and that will last.

 

[Tom Welch]

Sean,

We can run whatever tire you'd like to make a comparison. I have drag radials, stock radials and e.t. streets.

Its funny though how you want to compare JUST my exhaust to your complete outfit of goodies. Imagine for a minute how much more power I would make with an intake tube system, flywheel, and your controller??(maybe, maybe not as for the controller).

Anyways, I will be there with just my exhaust system and whatever tire combination that you feel suits you or your driver best. Are you running the rebuilt engine with intake and other mods as well?? Lets make this fair.....Id hate to have to devistate you with a squirt of nitrous!

Tom