VicTxV10
Enthusiast
After buying a kit like this, what would be the reason, if any, to ever upgrade to a high end Moton or KW set?
NEW Affordable! Gen 3 Adjustable Lowering Kit!
- Thread starter GTS-R 001
- Start date
If you are serious then I ill share the following
This system "only" lowers the gal and will also likely change the shock dynamics if lowered even though slightly in an adverse way whereas Koni's, Moton's, Penske's etc have completely different internals, pistons, valves,, seals, shafts, as well as the fluid and gas within the custom shock bodies themselves as such offer not only more ride/handling options but even more so operate better; then add to this the systems as shared above can be serviced whereas the OEM shocks are tossed once they complete their service life.
There is far more that can be shared nevertheless your question is akin to asking one to compare apples to oranges; completely different.
Takes care
Shadowman
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VicTxV10
Enthusiast
Cool, thanks for the info! I'm sort of new to all this Viper upgrades.
You are very welcome
All the best with your quest
Shadowman
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Vic,
This kit has its place so to speak,
If you want to go as fast as you can around a track or just buy the best suspension you can, no matter what the cost, then Penskes and Motons are a good way to go. They are a higher end system and need to be cared for (maintenance, refilling gas etc.) Yes they can be rebuilt, but the rebuild will cost you more than this kit does, and they perform well and are quite adjustable.
If you are looking to lower your car and get some better performance and be able to corner weight and be able to adjust your height and have an upgrade path to teh high end systems then this is probably the way to go.
If you do not care about your ride quality, eibach street kit with or with out caps will get you lower and cool looking, for cheaper.
ulllose
Viper Owner
GTS-R-----I have the eibach street kit now on the car WITHOUT caps. I feel the ride is bouncy and stiff (just like it was on the stock springs in my opinon).
Question I have is by going with your kit i'm going to think that the ride would be the same correct?
(I have never had adjustable suspension before so) is this trial and error to get the height where you want it? Meaning spin it up/down and count the treads and do it on the other side? if you know what i mean?
Thanks
Question I have is by going with your kit i'm going to think that the ride would be the same correct?
(I have never had adjustable suspension before so) is this trial and error to get the height where you want it? Meaning spin it up/down and count the treads and do it on the other side? if you know what i mean?
Thanks
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Ulllose,
I believe the ride will get better, stiff with less bounce,
To set the height, yes it is a matter of getting all 4 corners at the same height, count threads or measure the distance.
I am looking forward to getting rid of some of the Eibach bounce. I love the look of the car but I feel like it just has too much bounce for my taste, and makes me a little nervous at higher speeds I spoke with Steve about these and looks like you will get a slightly stiffer ride as per with a set of Motons, or Penskes without the bounce of the Eibachs.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
The stock shocks are designed to work at the stock ride height and with the stock springs. If you make changes to either the control ability of them are changed and generally not for the better. Even if you are lowering the center of gravity I would challenge anyone to prove the handling has "improved" The response might seen quicker but that is probably from the contact with a bump stop and instantaneous rate increase. This same trait will be horrible in a high speed condition. Do this to lower ONLY! it will not improve perceived performance.
But obviously this is just my opinion...
But obviously this is just my opinion...
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Hi Mark,
While the stock shocks are most probably "made" to work best at stock ride height this kit is made for those who want to lower their car and do so on a budget.
Both the Moton shocks and KW shock are in fact running out of travel at a point before the stock ones run out of travel and are therefore under the same disadvantage you quote when travel runs out and as you can see from the below pic, all 3 have approx the same travel distance of between 4 and 4.5 inches total uncompressed travel and they all run out of travel at approx the same place. The only way to change this is to change the shock mounting point. The Stock shocks with my set up actually let the shock travel to well within the visible hardware and given that all 3 of these setups have the same spring rates, then the same cornering forces would be required to "eat up the travel " before one hit the bump stops on ANY 3 of the 3 setups in the picture.
The moton pic has 8 inch springs and the KW is sized appropriately in this pic, the gen 3 kit also has an 8 inch spring
As all can see the travel distance between all 3 is pretty much the same, so with all 3 having 800 lb springs the cpmpression will be about the same with the same cornering forces, the only advantage the KW or Motons will have is the rate of dampening and the rate of rebound that are set, but hitting the bumpstops will happen in approx the same spot on all 3 systems.
As I have said before this kit IS NOT AS GOOD AS MOTONS OR KW'S, it is better than eibach streets and caps and is adjustable.
I think this is the perfect thing for those that want to get more in tune with their car without dumping $5K to $6K.
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2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
I was hoping to hear Mark's response to your reply. I am not looking to start any beefs, because quite frankly, Mark's the finest the community has to offer. But if Mark says 'no' to something then I go his way. This really did look like a great inexpensive setup, relatively speaking. But if Mark thinks its not a good idea, I can't go against Mark.
Honestly was looking for honest straight forward dialogue with no hard feelings either way, with clarity on why it isnt a good idea, or how much utility one really can get out of this setup before having to go the full race proven shocks.
Maybe because it seems to have gotten moved from original forum, it lost its viewers.
Jon
Honestly was looking for honest straight forward dialogue with no hard feelings either way, with clarity on why it isnt a good idea, or how much utility one really can get out of this setup before having to go the full race proven shocks.
Maybe because it seems to have gotten moved from original forum, it lost its viewers.
Jon
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Hi Jon,
I think that Mark was primarily questioning the travel and resistance to roll as compared to the $5K+ Moton system.
I think the response above pretty much answered the question and given that Mark really had no info on the travel available on this system vs the others available in the market, and given that the spring rates on this system are the same as those that Woodhouse sells with their Motons, I cannot see why handling would not improve. Handling will not be as good as a moton system but it will be much better than stock or eibachs and caps or any combination of the above. I can see why he questioned it, and I can see how he came to his recommendation without that information.
Since I introduced this kit a few weeks ago I have had numerous people contact me that are completely unhappy with their Caps and Eibachs and they want something better, upgradeable and adjustable but just not $5-6 K. For those people this is a great alternative to having their wallets lightened quite so much. For those people that the "best" is what they "need". then Motons or KW's or Penskes is the way to go.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
All I'm trying to say is that the stock shock whether it has a Eibach Pro kit or this setup the drop will be the same and the shock travel will also be the same thus the ride will be the same... The travel on yours will not be as indicated because the cap and stack will contact before the end of the piston rod at the top. Change just those factors and it is apparent the travel is much less than the Moton or KW variants. This is also without any load on the shock, the installed and weighted pictures would prove this more.
I am not trying to say "don't buy this" I just want to make sure that the idea of this kit is for people that want just the lowered "look" and that they have all the correct expectations of that. We have a lot of owners that have the car get away from them and I'm just looking out so no one gets hurt by having a false sense of confidence because the steering "feels" quicker. Quicker feeling does not make better handling or increased grip.
I hope you sell some kits as the concept is a great alternative money wise, but the cost of false security will be higher for most that don't have the facts about what the kit is IMHO.
I am not trying to say "don't buy this" I just want to make sure that the idea of this kit is for people that want just the lowered "look" and that they have all the correct expectations of that. We have a lot of owners that have the car get away from them and I'm just looking out so no one gets hurt by having a false sense of confidence because the steering "feels" quicker. Quicker feeling does not make better handling or increased grip.
I hope you sell some kits as the concept is a great alternative money wise, but the cost of false security will be higher for most that don't have the facts about what the kit is IMHO.
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Mark,
The Cap is honed out so the shock travels all the way to the inner reached of the silver cap on top, the only resistance there is the rubber bump stop. The amount of cornering force to compress the much heavier than stock springs will make the chance of that happening a lot less than running with stock springs or with the Eibach street Kit which I have heard many say gets incredibly out of whack at high speeds.
I have tested this kit for travel with the wheels off and jacked the suspension to the point of bottoming out to actually see how far it goes and the travel goes the entire distance. Now that you mention though, the bottom of the cap on the others gets in the way of the travel when you look at the Moton cap and the KW cap. I have over exaggerated the actual travel of the Moton and KW set up as the cap on those two setups does prevent travel of the shock body top.
I think the loads on cornering would need to be very significant against the springs of this spring rate (500F/800R) to cause a bottoming out and the forces would be similar to those needed to bottom out a set of Motons as well.
I do fail to see how this cannot "handle" better than stock. Naturally shocks that are made to operate at the lower height settings will "handle" better that this set up when at the height they are made to perform at but the fact that you can corner weight and ride lower and stiffer should increase handling.
What is the ride height that the Moton Clubs sports are made to optimally operate at?
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Like I said I hope you sell a lot of them. There is no way that the gold spring seat on the top of yours would not contact the shock it self well before the indicated travel limits. The Moton will travel all the way down to the indicated top. The difference once again is that the stock shock is not capable of controlling a increased spring rate especially when you are effectively cutting it's normal travel in half.
The Moton and KW's are DESIGNED to handle various higher rate springs with the usable rebound and compression adjustments available, they are also built to have the valving work through the range of any adjustment since that is what they were designed to do unlike the stock set up. They are also designed to work with small travel limits and have effective control, once again the stock one are not, this is why the lowering by springs or your product and springs will result in the same driving characteristics but may even bounce more because the shock can't control the higher rate spring that the Pro Kit from Eibach.
This was not meant to be an attack on you or this product just information on the results that can happen when the stock system is modified. If it was that easy then Dodge would have probably offered it as it is obviously a simple design change.
FWIW only
Regards,
The Moton and KW's are DESIGNED to handle various higher rate springs with the usable rebound and compression adjustments available, they are also built to have the valving work through the range of any adjustment since that is what they were designed to do unlike the stock set up. They are also designed to work with small travel limits and have effective control, once again the stock one are not, this is why the lowering by springs or your product and springs will result in the same driving characteristics but may even bounce more because the shock can't control the higher rate spring that the Pro Kit from Eibach.
This was not meant to be an attack on you or this product just information on the results that can happen when the stock system is modified. If it was that easy then Dodge would have probably offered it as it is obviously a simple design change.
FWIW only
Regards,
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Hey Mark,
I never took your response as an attack and I am in agreement that the higher end systems are in fact the better way to go if one can afford it. I do think that if one is to lower their car and still want a number of areas of improvement for very little money in comparison then this kit is the way to go.
Just as an FYI, the shock travels right through the center of the upper gold caps, just as it does on the stock caps, there is no contact, so the system has the same end point of travel as the stock system, it just takes more force to get there due to the change in spring rate.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Folks, I am an interested, unbiased observer with previous experience.
I have already done this - putting threaded sleeves over my stock shocks, lower the car, put stiffer springs on the car. Look in my photo gallery and you will see images I put up years ago, then search some old posts about spring rates and see that I use what are essentially ACR rates of 550 front and 800 rear. It looks like GTS-R 001 is commercializing the concept.
So my observations are:
1) You can lower the car, obviously.
2) You can change the handling by shifting the roll stiffness to front or rear. If you want the car loose or tight, you can do that.
3) The OEM Konis are adjustable for rebound. My view is that most people underestimate the effect of this - it's easy to understand stiffer springs, but harder to think through stiffer shocks. It makes a bigger difference than you think and is effective. Are the OEM shocks as versatile as "top tier" shocks- no. But since the OEM adjustment is full soft, I went full stiff on the front, half in the rear. Makes a big difference.
4) With a stiffer sprung car, for the same side load, the suspension travels less and the crazy camber alignments are not needed. Think about it - if there were no lean at all, the tires can be set straight up. I have seen both sides of this experiment and oddly, with stiffer springs, the tires seem to wear more evenly.
5) Yes, I hit the bump stops because my car is too low. My fault. However, simplistically, if the spring rate is double and the pothole is the same size, the travel should be half? Be reasonable in your drop and spring stiffness and hitting the stops should be as rare as it is now.
Once installed, springs can be changed easily. A pair of springs is what, less than $200? If you don't like the ride or handling, you can change it! Another huge plus is if you corner weight the car (don't just get the ruler and measure fender height) your braking will be excellent! You can set both front wheel loads to be equal and you will eliminate the RF wheel lock up and get both fronts to participate in slowing the car.
Overall opinion is that this kit is like the 40mm brakes vs. big brake kit debate. It is 20% of the cost and you get 80% or 90% of the benefits. Just close your eyes as to what it may look like.
Flame away, folks, but my fugly green Gen 1 with home-built threaded shocks handily beat all newer Vipers in every autocross event I have ever attended. In back to back runs with my car and newer Vipers (when the VCA and Dodge brought the yellow movie cars to the regional events) I was several seconds quicker in my car than the new ones. I'm close to a one-minute lap at Lime Rock on Kumhos. (Engine is mild; 405/480 rear wheel on dyno) So I believe this to be a good practical deal, demonstrated by putting my money in my mouth even before GTS-R 001 decided to offer the kit.
PS: Dodge could not easily have offered this because the OEM Koni spring seats on Gen 1 and 2 are larger diameter than the threaded sleeve would be. Dodge would have had to spec a different shock. I'm curious how the Gen 1/2 kit will work.
Note to self: make deal with GTS-R 001 to offer spring kit + 40mm brake combo and create junior ACR package. Maybe call it AXR for autocross racer...
I have already done this - putting threaded sleeves over my stock shocks, lower the car, put stiffer springs on the car. Look in my photo gallery and you will see images I put up years ago, then search some old posts about spring rates and see that I use what are essentially ACR rates of 550 front and 800 rear. It looks like GTS-R 001 is commercializing the concept.
So my observations are:
1) You can lower the car, obviously.
2) You can change the handling by shifting the roll stiffness to front or rear. If you want the car loose or tight, you can do that.
3) The OEM Konis are adjustable for rebound. My view is that most people underestimate the effect of this - it's easy to understand stiffer springs, but harder to think through stiffer shocks. It makes a bigger difference than you think and is effective. Are the OEM shocks as versatile as "top tier" shocks- no. But since the OEM adjustment is full soft, I went full stiff on the front, half in the rear. Makes a big difference.
4) With a stiffer sprung car, for the same side load, the suspension travels less and the crazy camber alignments are not needed. Think about it - if there were no lean at all, the tires can be set straight up. I have seen both sides of this experiment and oddly, with stiffer springs, the tires seem to wear more evenly.
5) Yes, I hit the bump stops because my car is too low. My fault. However, simplistically, if the spring rate is double and the pothole is the same size, the travel should be half? Be reasonable in your drop and spring stiffness and hitting the stops should be as rare as it is now.
Once installed, springs can be changed easily. A pair of springs is what, less than $200? If you don't like the ride or handling, you can change it! Another huge plus is if you corner weight the car (don't just get the ruler and measure fender height) your braking will be excellent! You can set both front wheel loads to be equal and you will eliminate the RF wheel lock up and get both fronts to participate in slowing the car.
Overall opinion is that this kit is like the 40mm brakes vs. big brake kit debate. It is 20% of the cost and you get 80% or 90% of the benefits. Just close your eyes as to what it may look like.
Flame away, folks, but my fugly green Gen 1 with home-built threaded shocks handily beat all newer Vipers in every autocross event I have ever attended. In back to back runs with my car and newer Vipers (when the VCA and Dodge brought the yellow movie cars to the regional events) I was several seconds quicker in my car than the new ones. I'm close to a one-minute lap at Lime Rock on Kumhos. (Engine is mild; 405/480 rear wheel on dyno) So I believe this to be a good practical deal, demonstrated by putting my money in my mouth even before GTS-R 001 decided to offer the kit.
PS: Dodge could not easily have offered this because the OEM Koni spring seats on Gen 1 and 2 are larger diameter than the threaded sleeve would be. Dodge would have had to spec a different shock. I'm curious how the Gen 1/2 kit will work.
Note to self: make deal with GTS-R 001 to offer spring kit + 40mm brake combo and create junior ACR package. Maybe call it AXR for autocross racer...
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
The shocks on the Gen 3 and 4 are pretty much the same and there is supposed to be a difference to compensate for the slightly increased spring rates of the Gen4 cars. I have been driving my car now with this kit for 2 months now and the ride is superior to stock in every way IMHO. I think the stock Gen 3/4 shocks are a good compromise for the preloaded stock springs or these springs which are not preloaded.
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Gen 2 system will be available shortly, I am taking pre-orders and the Gen 3/4 is shipping now!
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
AbsolutHank
Enthusiast
Steve...have any of these left?
Has this been tested around a track?
Everyone I showed this too says it is just an expensive way to lower the car wtih the same performance as just an eibach setup.
I have the eibach's and lowering caps and have been looking for a better solution without dropping the $5,000+ on a highend moton system. But im interested to know about ride quality compared to the eibachs and if this does improve handling/etc.
Everyone I showed this too says it is just an expensive way to lower the car wtih the same performance as just an eibach setup.
I have the eibach's and lowering caps and have been looking for a better solution without dropping the $5,000+ on a highend moton system. But im interested to know about ride quality compared to the eibachs and if this does improve handling/etc.
AbsolutHank
Enthusiast
I'm interested too...the problem with Eibach's and caps is that the actual drop seems to vary. Take a look at Tiago's car...it looks like its lowered all the way on Moton's, and some other members cars just look a little more aggressive than caps!
At least with the Vipair setup, you can get the exact drop you are looking for, on all 4 corners.
Either way, since I already have the caps, I only need another $300 or so to test out the Eibachs, as I do the work myself. I could probably sell them for $200 if I still wanted the Vipair setup later
At least with the Vipair setup, you can get the exact drop you are looking for, on all 4 corners.
Either way, since I already have the caps, I only need another $300 or so to test out the Eibachs, as I do the work myself. I could probably sell them for $200 if I still wanted the Vipair setup later
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
Everyone's not looking hard enough. Yes, you can lower the car, but you also can use any spring rate you want. You can choose moderately stiffer like Eibach, you can choose ACR rates, you can choose to make the car tight or loose. Plus you can corner weight the car, which you cannot do with Eibachs and/or caps.
Ride depends on you - what springs you choose. This time you cannot blame the vendor.
I have no vested interest in this, just that I did it for myself years and years ago and have lots of experience, autocross, and track time with it.
GTS-R 001
Enthusiast
Lots and Lots.
AbsolutHank
Enthusiast
I had created another thread when I purchased this setup from Steve, but didn't bump this thread with new info.
This setup has been absolutely perfect for me. I've had a set of 19" CCWs on the car, and knew I would be upgrading to 20s for awhile. I wanted to be able to lower the car exactly the same, on all 4 corners, with numerous wheel/tire setups(I'm kind of a wheel *****)
You can quickly adjust the ride height to match whatever wheel/tire combo you have. The ride is certainly firmer than before, but I have not lost confidence in high speed driving like many people talk about with the Eibachs. The handling feels quicker and tighter, although to what extent I can't say. I've just been pleased overall with this setup, especially for the money. I installed them myself in the garage and its truly an easy install(as long as you have acess/can rent a spring compressor)
Here are a few pics...the before pics the car had caps only.
This setup has been absolutely perfect for me. I've had a set of 19" CCWs on the car, and knew I would be upgrading to 20s for awhile. I wanted to be able to lower the car exactly the same, on all 4 corners, with numerous wheel/tire setups(I'm kind of a wheel *****
)You can quickly adjust the ride height to match whatever wheel/tire combo you have. The ride is certainly firmer than before, but I have not lost confidence in high speed driving like many people talk about with the Eibachs. The handling feels quicker and tighter, although to what extent I can't say. I've just been pleased overall with this setup, especially for the money. I installed them myself in the garage and its truly an easy install(as long as you have acess/can rent a spring compressor)
Here are a few pics...the before pics the car had caps only.
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