New PS2 but old DOT ?

JonB

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Psssst...wanna buy some date-shaved tires?!?! I find this to be suspect. Why: The serial number of the tire can still be used to determine the age of the tire. And if I had been approached in such a way, with a supposed 'well-known wholesaler' saying the date codes were obliterated or intentionally obscured, my first call would be to my contacts at Michelin NA with a loud whistle-blowing inquiry, not a side-note here. But thats' just me. (Michelin probably knows the scoop anyway.)

That said, DOT CODES are not on most European Market tires. They would not be 'buffed off', just NOT THERE at all ! If the whole DOT code and serial number is buffed-obliterated or Not-There European, they would not be Steet legal in USA, which requires DOT Tires.

But some folks MIGHT want them for cheap auto-cross and track uses....... Maybe they are CHINESE COUNTERFEITS?

Trivia: Old Timers may remember "blem" tires being offered in USA decades ago? Europe still has "blems" offered time to time, called "DA" tires, stamped DA with a hot branding iron. But a 'well known wholesaler' would be aware of this product at the outset. A wholesaler in Belgium, a hotbed of European Viper racing, sells Michelin "DA" Blem tyres......


.................Interesting side note: A few months ago we were approached by a well-known wholesaler that had numerous Viper sizes available as excess inventory, including around forty (40) Michelin PS2's in 345/30-19. Date codes were a concern for us as well, so we asked about tire conditions (take-offs, brand new, etc.) and for the range of date codes (oldest to newest). Three days later we were informed that "we looked at the tires only to find that the date code has been buffed off, sorry". It would be interesting to see if anybody ended up with those tires on their car but didn't think to look.
 
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Dom426h

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I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on your opinion on the Nittos.

I would personally rather purchase a set of New 2008produced PS2's over a set of New2011 INVO's

I currently have INVO's on my viper and have suff marks(scrubing a full inch up the sidewall) The soft sidwalls are not desirable for autocrossing, roadcourses, and spirited backroad runs.
I do understand that this can be a benefit to people that limit there performance experience to a stright line where the soft sidewall helps with the lunch similar to a dragradial. Also, the price on the INVO's is nice which is why i purchased them since i had just purchased my Viper and prioritized my $ for several other maintenance items.

Here is what Car&Drive had to say about the INVO's when doing a comparison of 10 HighPerformanceSummerTires:

"Unfortunately, the Nittos’ performance was less inspiring. They were second from the bottom in both dry lap time and braking, with both drivers reporting a soft feeling at the limit and that they were difficult to drive precisely because the grip would taper off in a nonlinear fashion. This led to more oversteer than most of the other tires exhibited, and even though they had an average skidpad run (0.91 g), the Invos left both drivers wishing for more grip."
 
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And if I had been approached in such a way, with a supposed well-known wholesaler saying the date codes were obliterated or intentionally obscured, my first call would be to my contacts at Michelin NA with a loud whistle-blowing protest, not a side-note here.
LOL. We forwarded it immediately to both Mopar and Michelin. We also think that it could have been a ruse (the buffed out part) after they found another buyer. We noticed another seller offering discounted PS2's shortly thereafter, noting that the rears were older date codes.

PS. You might want to note that your Car & Driver Nitto tests were also conducted by Tire Rack, who does not carry Nittos. As every Viper owner/fan knows, some of these magazines are notorious for their bias towards their larger advertisers - nevermind that the actual advertiser was conducting the test. We wonder if General Motors would declare the Viper the winner in a magazine test they conducted?
 

JonB

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LOL. We forwarded it immediately to both Mopar and Michelin. We also think that it could have been a ruse (the buffed out part) after they found another buyer. We noticed another seller offering discounted PS2's shortly thereafter, noting that the rears were older date codes.

PS. You might want to note that your Car & Driver Nitto tests were also conducted by Tire Rack, who does not carry Nittos. As every Viper owner/fan knows, some of these magazines are notorious for their bias towards their larger advertisers - nevermind that the actual advertiser was conducting the test. We wonder if General Motors would declare the Viper the winner in a magazine test they conducted?

LOL ? Their Response was?

I completely trust the testers at C+D and TireRack. But No, was NOT a TireRack test. C+D simply borrowed the T-Rack facility. Nitto IS a Car and Driver advertisor! Heck, I also trust DOM426 above, who did his own tests, on his VIPER.

True, TireRack does NOT carry Nittos. But Due to performance? I think, guessing, that TireRack does not like the haphazard distribution system.
PS: This entire thread belongs in the Tire and Wheel Forum.
 
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Luke@tirerack

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I guess I should try to help set the record straight.

Nitto tires:

The Tire Rack focuses on brands that are used as Original Equipment (O.E.) on many of the world's finest vehicles. Of the three brands you inquired about, only Toyo has any, although limited, O.E. fitments on vehicles sold in the United States.

Nitto Tire is subsidiary of the Toyo Tire & Rubber Company.

Since these tire brands have limited awareness in the United States (with the exception of performance tires), they rely heavily on their independent dealers for sales.

Some of the larger regional tire dealers who sell the off-the-road tires used for logging and mining, H.D. truck tires used for tractor trailers and busses, as well as light light truck and passenger car tires have been given "exclusive geographic distribution privileges" to minimize competition.

This results in a conflict because The Tire Rack offers its selection of products nationwide, and is not able or willing to restrict delivery to specific regions. The regional dealers have threatened to stop selling the tire manufacturer's "full" line if The Tire Rack delivers into their "area".

While this costs The Tire Rack some sales and doesn't always provide the consumer with the best selection and service, it's the path that these tire companies have chosen to take.

Tire Age:

Nothing Lasts Forever...and Tires Are No Exception
Tires are manufactured by bonding rubber to fabric plies and steel cords. And despite the anti-aging ingredients mixed into the rubber compounds, there is a realization that tires are perishable, as well as a growing awareness that some tires will actually age out before their treads will wear out.


How many years will tires last before aging out? Unfortunately it's impossible to predict when tires should be replaced based on their calendar age alone.
The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and tire manufacturers are currently studying the many variables. Exposure to the elements (sun and atmospheric), regularity of use (frequent or only occasional) and the quality of care (maintaining proper inflation pressure, wheel alignment, etc.) will all influence the answer. So while tire life depends on the service conditions and the environment in which they operate, the difficult task remains how to identify all of the variables that influence a tire's calendar age and attempt to quantify their influence.


The current industry association recommendations regarding inspecting and replacing tires due to age originate outside the United States.


The British Rubber Manufacturers Association (BRMA) recommended practice issued June, 2001, states "BRMA members strongly recommend that unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over six years old and that all tyres should be replaced ten years from the date of their manufacture."



"Environmental conditions like exposure to sunlight and coastal climates, as well as poor storage and infrequent use, accelerate the aging process. In ideal conditions, a tyre may have a life expectancy that exceeds ten years from its date of manufacture. However, such conditions are rare. Aging may not exhibit any external indications and, since there is no non-destructive test to assess the serviceability of a tyre, even an inspection carried out by a tyre expert may not reveal the extent of any deterioration."
More recently, The Japan Automobile Tire Manufacturers Association (JATMA) recommended practice issued May, 2005, states "customers are encouraged to have their vehicle tires promptly inspected after five years of use to determine if the tires can continue to be used (recommends spare tires be inspected as well). Furthermore, even when the tires look usable, it is recommended that all tires (including spare tires) that were made more than ten years ago be replaced with new tires. Additionally, because in some cases automobile makers--based on the characteristics of the relevant vehicle--stipulate in the owner's manual the timing of tire inspection and replacement. Please read and confirm the content of the owner's manual."


Several European vehicle manufacturers of high performance sports cars, coupes and sedans identify that "under no circumstances should tires older than 6 years be used" in their vehicle owner's manual. However, it should be noted that European recommendations must include driving conditions that include roads like the German Autobahn, which allows vehicles to be legally driven at their top speeds for extended periods of time.


While American driving conditions don't include the high-speed challenges of the German Autobahn, Chrysler and Ford Motor Company joined their European colleagues in 2005 by recommending that tires installed as Original Equipment be replaced after six years of service. (General Motors declined to offer a recommendation until a more scientific analysis of driving conditions and tire aging could be completed).


It is important to take into account Original Equipment tires are mounted on wheels and put into service right after being received by vehicle manufacturers, so their calendar age begins immediately. However the same cannot be said of tires properly stored in a tire manufacturers' warehouse or in Tire Rack distribution centers before they go into service. Properly stored tires that are protected from the elements and not mounted on a wheel age very slowly before they are mounted and put into service.


Since Tire Rack sells tires manufactured in North and South America, as well as Europe, Africa and Asia, it's common for us to receive new tires directly from manufacturers that are already six to nine months old. Since we rotate our inventory, most of the tires we ship are less than a year old.


However, some low volume tires in sizes for limited production vehicles (i.e. Dodge Vipers) can only be efficiently manufactured periodically where one short production run may produce more than a year's worth of global supply. In some of these cases, Tire Rack might receive new tires directly from the manufacturer that are already several years old.


Our experience has been that when properly stored and cared for, most street tires have a useful life in service of between six to ten years. And while part of that time is spent as the tire travels from the manufacturing plant to the manufacturer's distribution center, to the retailer and to you, the remainder is the time it spends on your vehicle.

Car & Driver
The test information posted previously was a Car and Driver tire test. While it was conducted at our facility we had ZERO input on what was being tested, how the tests were conducted or the results. There were a couple of drivers and very accurate timing equipment used to compile the data. Numbers don't lie but, yes some of the info is subjective. The drivers who were conducting the test are very well known for their experience and car control abilities industry wide. By industry I do not mean the media I am referring to the automotive industry. Their subjective opinions do carry a lot of weight. In the end are we to believe that a well know, extremely respected, world wide publication would jeopardize their reputation, and in turn their income stream, by 'doctoring' their test results as is being suggested.


Luke
 

Lee00blacksilverGTS

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LOL ? Their Response was?

I completely trust the testers at C+D and TireRack. But No, was NOT a TireRack test. C+D simply borrowed the T-Rack facility. Heck, I also trust DOM426 above, who did his own tests, on his VIPER.

True, TireRack does NOT carry Nittos. But Due to performance? I think, guessing, that TireRack does not like the haphazard distribution system.
PS: This entire thread belongs in the Tire and Wheel Forum.

We may move it to Tire/Wheel later. But as there are safety and ethical issues involved we will leave it here for now for greater exposure. I will admit I'm learning a few things.
 
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Thanks Luke. We knew why you didn't carry Nitto and thus why your resellers don't either. We didn't want the continued slamming of Nitto and the folks that buy them to continue without a little background, especially when competitors falsely imply it is due to performance or their "haphazard distribution". We have seen this before with slams on the "fleabay 6-spokes" - until they started carrying them.

As for Car & Driver, again - we felt it was important to share a little background for folks that didn't realize that Tire Rack was involved with that testing. While we certainly wouldn't suggest that Tire Rack intentionally influenced the outcome, C&D (and others) have a reputation for having bias for and against certain vehicles and products - a quick search on these very forums will demonstrate that. Heck, even their Wikipedia entry has references to biased testing (radar detectors in that case). Numerous Viper (and Corvette) owners run Nittos and like them a lot. We didn't see any Vipers (or Corvettes) involved in either of these other two tests.

Thanks again for your insight.

LOL ? Their Response was?
Sorry Jon, the "LOL" was because it was such a transparent slam on us that it was laughable. But hey, "Crabby Monday" is a free pass so no worries. As for their response, rest assured that they were as concerned as we were.
 

JonB

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None of my posts was a slam on anyone. (except maybe those who dont believe industry experts.) Nor was it factless innuendo. "rest assured, they were concerned" is a say-nothing reply, dont you agree?I provided factual and plausible reasons why "no code" tires may exist, are illegal, and/or foreign. This thread is days old, not a result of a 'crabby monday' slam.

You stated incorrectly:

""""You might want to note that your Car & Driver Nitto tests were also conducted by Tire Rack, who does not carry Nittos. As every Viper owner/fan knows, some of these magazines are notorious for their bias towards their larger advertisers - nevermind that the actual advertiser was conducting the test. We wonder if General Motors would declare the Viper the winner in a magazine test they conducted?"""

My tests?! You imply the tests may be tainted.....I say I trust them. And TireRack confirms the facts above exactly as I stated: TireRack did not conduct the tests; that distribution issues, not performance, is the reason for no nittos. No Slam, just another difference of opinion. But a factual, experienced one from me.

If those date-altered tires do exist in the US, they probably ended up misrepresented on FleaBay. Why mention flea-bay here? Since you brought it up, I was always amazed that PartsRack had 6-spokes at or below flea-bay prices for almost 2 years. My disdain for flea-bay problems is long-standing, and I believe I even coined the fleabay term. Those who choose flea-bay unknows take risks that they dont have to take with most known club sponsors-vendors-sellers. Does anyone NOT believe that conterfeit or date-altered tires would find a welcome home on Flea Bay ?
 
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Luke@tirerack

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Heck, even their Wikipedia entry has references to biased testing (radar detectors in that case). Numerous Viper (and Corvette) owners run Nittos and like them a lot. We didn't see any Vipers (or Corvettes) involved in either of these other two tests.

We were NOT involved in the testing ... Car and Driver used our test track with their own test drivers, data collection, test parameters and criteria.

I don't know that I would put much if any faith in a wikipedia entry as the entries can be editted by the users. I have a niece in highschool whose most recent term paper received a less than stellar "D" because wikipedia was listed as a prominent source of information.:lmao:

FWIW ... I have driven the Invo head to head against a couple of of the other tires mentioned in this thread at several test and tune days on a few different cars and think that the Invo is a decent tire which offers much less impact on ones wallet but, really doesn't perform at the same level as the Michelin. Admittedly the times I have driven it it was rather hot but, they also seem to overheat and get slippery faster than what I have normally experienced. That said it is decently progressive in it's breakaway characteristics so, it's pretty easy to drive at it's limit.

In the end it does have a place in the performance community as it is praised as a good value but, that's because of the cost not the performance.
 

TI3VOM

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Luke,

What are your thoughts on my situation? I purchased Kumho Ecsta XS (OEM Sizes all 4) tires from Tire Rack last week and they arrived with 08 date stamps. I called last Thursday and was told they would check the warehouse for more recent tires it is now Monday with no call back as of yet. I have done a lot of research in the meantime and have come to the conclusion these tires are probably 94-96% of there original quality. I purchased NEW tires not 94-96% tires please let me know what you think whether that be I am crazy for wasting my time or do I have a legitimate case.
 

JonB

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Thanks for the information Jon! If this works out to me keeping the tires I have (Which it probably will) I will definitely keep the receipt/proof in the glove box for these instances. I am still going to fight for a little discount though :smirk:. I will let you know how I make out.

You are most welcome. Luke is checking warehouses and build dates, and will reply to you very soon. [Once you put 400 miles on your tires, YOU ate up 4% ! Its a 'principle' issue here, based on real-world distribution of a foreign product. The tires are perfectly fine. (Id say save your energy for bigger issues. )
 
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3whitevipers

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I have a 2010 coupe that I will check the dates on. The car was delivered to me this past Dec from Roanoke. Can I do this without removing the tires? I'll remove them if necessary assuming the date code is on the inside of the tire. I'm very curious about this. Just tell me where the date code is---Dave
 

VIPER GTSR 91

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I have a 2010 coupe that I will check the dates on. The car was delivered to me this past Dec from Roanoke. Can I do this without removing the tires? I'll remove them if necessary assuming the date code is on the inside of the tire. I'm very curious about this. Just tell me where the date code is---Dave
All info is on outer side inc. birth date. No need to remove them.
 

JonB

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I have a 2010 coupe that I will check the dates on. The car was delivered to me this past Dec from Roanoke. Can I do this without removing the tires? I'll remove them if necessary assuming the date code is on the inside of the tire. I'm very curious about this. Just tell me where the date code is---Dave


Thank You Dave !

Just above the bead, On the outside sidewall, under the "treadwear-traction" data, are 2-3 small ovals. the last one is about 1" long, and has 4 raised, uniform numbers in it: as in 4408. This means the 44th week of 2008.

Here's an older photo of a 5107 date code. [On Newer tires like PS2 the date code stands alone, in its own oval outline:]

You must be registered for see images
 
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TI3VOM

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You are most welcome. Luke is checking warehouses and build dates, and will reply to you very soon. [Once you put 400 miles on your tires, YOU ate up 4% ! Its a 'principle' issue here, based on real-world distribution of a foreign product. The tires are perfectly fine. (Id say save your energy for bigger issues. )

Your exactly right it is a "principle" issue because me and 400 miles with the way I drive I'll be lucky to still have these haha. :D but thanks again for the support!
 

3whitevipers

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Thanks Jon
Rear tire date code is 4109 for both and the front is 4209 for the left and 4309 for the right tire. Car was mfg. in 6-10. Sorry to be so dumb--Dave
 

3whitevipers

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Jon--
Before I saw your last post I searched tire date codes and saw the picture in your post but I didn't know that on the newer PS2's the date code was in it's own oval without other letters or numbers. Thanks again--Dave
 
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Thanks Jon
Rear tire date code is 4109 for both and the front is 4209 for the left and 4309 for the right tire. Car was mfg. in 6-10. Sorry to be so dumb--Dave
Not dumb at all - most people don't think to look at date codes and people are becoming more educated as time goes on.

As for your tire manufacture date of October 2009 vs. your build date of June 2010, that isn't a big surprise. One of the differences with the Viper manufacturing process is that the tires are not mounted/balanced at the factory - they are actually done at Michelin and shipped to the plant ready to bolt to the car. That means that your wheels/tires may be stored at the plant for months until they actually get mounted on the car. The plant doesn't order tires separately.

It would be interesting to learn from Luke how tires are purchased and stored. We have all seen the pictures of Tire Rack's massive warehouses stacked to the roof with tires (very cool). So does a retailer/distributor buy those tires in bulk to save money and then sell them on demand? In other words, do the national tire sellers end up carrying the stock so that the manufacturers don't have to? An example would be Nitto where they sometimes run out of stock, but more likely because no large distributors keep a big supply on hand - especially in Viper sizes. It would seem logical that for OE tires like the PS2 that Tire Rack and others would buy hundreds at a time to keep them in stock, thus allowing the manufacturer to build them in runs rather than "on demand", as may be the case for others.
 

canadian venom

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And those tires have exactly how much in common with street tires ? Hmmm ? Answer ZERO beyond being round and not metallic. And yes, team Ferrari put on a clinic while everyone else sat in the pits.

--FQB


And your point? We're not in a Ferrari forum here..... I'm not here to give you a crash course on motorsport (for this google is your friend). But as it appear you don't seem to know how to read between the lines this was show that Michelin's philosophy is no different in a circuit or on the street ... It's their way or the highway....
 

markk

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As for your tire manufacture date of October 2009 vs. your build date of June 2010, that isn't a big surprise. One of the differences with the Viper manufacturing process is that the tires are not mounted/balanced at the factory - they are actually done at Michelin and shipped to the plant ready to bolt to the car. That means that your wheels/tires may be stored at the plant for months until they actually get mounted on the car. The plant doesn't order tires separately.

So, with that said, Michelin fills them with air as part of the mounting/balancing so the deterioration starts then, not when the car is actually assembled. Correct?
 

Luke@tirerack

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Luke,

What are your thoughts on my situation? I purchased Kumho Ecsta XS (OEM Sizes all 4) tires from Tire Rack last week and they arrived with 08 date stamps. I called last Thursday and was told they would check the warehouse for more recent tires it is now Monday with no call back as of yet. I have done a lot of research in the meantime and have come to the conclusion these tires are probably 94-96% of there original quality. I purchased NEW tires not 94-96% tires please let me know what you think whether that be I am crazy for wasting my time or do I have a legitimate case.

While I see that my customers service department is checking the dates codes in other warehouses for you I think that the "age" issue on your tires is much less significant than you may have been lead to believe


found this little nugget while surfing the net ...
According to the RMA (Rubber Manufacturers Assoc.) a tires age will change the rubber hardness over time and that change is measured using a durometer or hardness meter. A tires "shelf life" is approximately 5-6 years if properly stored and there will be little to no change of the durometer measurement in that time period.
 

Luke@tirerack

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the DOT date code is required to be on all tires and is typically only put on 1 side not both
 

ViperGTS

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>>>That said, DOT CODES are not on most European Market tires.<<<

not true :rolleyes:

And, this is from another tire seller :rolleyes:

>>>Quote:
According to the RMA (Rubber Manufacturers Assoc.) a tires age will change the rubber hardness over time and that change is measured using a durometer or hardness meter. A tires "shelf life" is approximately 5-6 years if properly stored and there will be little to no change of the durometer measurement in that time period. <<<

I've driven several Vipers on old and new tires for THOUSANDS of miles and there is no doubt that an old tire is an old tire. NO GRIP.
I will never buy a NEW tire with a DOT age of several years! :drive:FOR MY VIPERS.

The quote may be true for the 100 hp DD.
 

Dom426h

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I've driven several Vipers on old and new tires for THOUSANDS of miles and there is no doubt that an old tire is an old tire. NO GRIP.

ME TOO. but that is due to the fact that our old tires are USED. Being exposed to the elements and going through several heatcycles. This is what dries them out and makes them harder lacking grip. There is a BIG Diff between a NEW 2008 Tire sitting on the shelf and Used 2008 Tire that has been on your vehicle for the past three years going though several heatcycles.
 

Luke@tirerack

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ME TOO. but that is due to the fact that our old tires are USED. Being exposed to the elements and going through several heatcycles. This is what dries them out and makes them harder lacking grip. There is a BIG Diff between a NEW 2008 Tire sitting on the shelf and Used 2008 Tire that has been on your vehicle for the past three years going though several heatcycles.

agreed .... good post !!!!
 

JonB

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Thanks Jon. Rear tire date code is 4109 for both and the front is 4209 for the left and 4309 for the right tire. Car was mfg. in 6-10. Dave

Thanks to Dave, we now know that Michelin did produce a batch of OEM tires for Dodge in October 2009. In past years, I have seen new cars delivered with tires over 1 year older than MFR dates. And yes, Michelin delivers aired-up and balanced OE wheel and tire sets to Dodge since 1992....a well-known trivia tidbit. CAAP re-checks air pressures and wheel conditions.

I suspect that Michelin built enough tires at that time to fill the PS2 needs of Dodge for the 270 or so Non-ACR 2010 Vipers. Any other owners with a 2010 [Non-ACR] want to weigh in with PS-2 tire dates? Thanks.
 

TI3VOM

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ME TOO. but that is due to the fact that our old tires are USED. Being exposed to the elements and going through several heatcycles. This is what dries them out and makes them harder lacking grip. There is a BIG Diff between a NEW 2008 Tire sitting on the shelf and Used 2008 Tire that has been on your vehicle for the past three years going though several heatcycles.

You guys can keep arguing semantics but the bottom line is these are not NEW tires they are 3 years old...Point and case I ordered NEW tires I was NOT told they were 3 years old...Will they work YES!....Do I want to lay down and accept the fact that the company I bought them from thinks that this is not important information to denote NO! Are these 3 yr old tires 100% NO, are they close YES but that doesn't matter to me its principle.:2tu:
 

jmillsUT28

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The problem is if we decide not to buy these tires and they have to make NEW tires then watch the price go up and watch the shortage of tires go up! :omg: Then we will have a thread on here complaining about the shortage of tires and the price!:lmao: Vendors will reply to the thread saying they can not stock as many sets of tires because they do not want to get stuck with tires that are older than one year... Or that the manufacture is only willing to produce so many tires... :D
 

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