Not Happy! National VCA please get involved!

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Good News: The intake valve problem is a missing grind that reduces the area under the top hat. (The valve seat interface area is not involved.) The loss of power is due to air flow restriction. So there should be no head damage from this missing grind.

Problem: How to get new valves without causing cosmetic or real damage due to inexperienced head removal and installation. Dealerships have not been allowed to do internal work on Viper motors for many years. Result few dealerships have experienced Techs to work on Viper Motors.

How many dealerships have Viper Techs that were trained to remove Viper heads from SRT with the motor in the car? And if there is one or more please share this info.

Why did DC employ ISG to deal with this problem? DC is paying ISG to handle this problem while trying to stick dealerships with untrained tech to make repairs that will cause the dealerships to lose money and likely make customers unhappy? It appears like PR is more important then a proper fix.
This is a total waste of money and ineffective approach. ISG has no idea which dealerships can provide the fix.

I suggest the DC terminate ISG as they contribute nothing to a proper fix. The VCA is better equipped to define Viper friendly dealerships with Viper Techs that have a quality Viper service history. The $$ saved by removing ISG needs to go to the Viper Tech(via the dealership) is cover the real cost of the work to be done.

It is clear the DC does not want to piss off the Viper nation, that is why the employed ISG. But ISG is not the answer. The answer is a quality implementation of the intake valve replacement parts.

I know several owners in this region that will not give their car a dealership unless they are 100% sure that the car will be returned in like condition except for new intake valves.

The focus of this problem is a quality fix not PR!

 

[Steve-Indy]

Maybe there could be designated "Centers of Excellence" !!!

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

That is a good way to address the Viper Tech. experience concerns.

If it is a DC facility it saves the dealerships from eating DC's mistake.

 

[BACKNBLACK]

Why don't you guys just ship your cars to the Wizard..He will solve anything...

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I think the Wizard would do a great job. If he were in our region this would not be an issue for our regional cars.

But he is such a great person I would not want him to lose money fixing my SRT.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Present the following to DC:

1. Define or create "Centers of Excellence". Centers staffed will techs, who are know to do excellent work on Vipers and who are trained on engineering(SRT10) cars.

2. Provide a special Bumper to Bumper warranty that stays with the car. That should remove the long term concerns about the motor. Keep the $300.00 and loaner car, apply those $$ to the "Centers of Excellence".

3. Drop ISG and apply those $$ to the "Centers of Excellence".

4. DC to cover the transportation cost.

 

[Milksnake]

Fred, we agree with you. Your ideas are sensible and rational. However, why is D/C not listening to you or to us.

I want to share my recent experience in calling D/C about the "problem." I called the given 800 number and pressed "5." The man I spoke to had no knowledge of the real problem. I asked to speak to someone who had more authority - higher up than him, he told me there was no one. The administrative managers just stopped by once in a while to see if everything was ok.

I pushed the conversation and asked if he knew of any dealers that were on his "certified list" to repair the car. He gave me the name of three dealers: Fresno - CA Dodge - 559-222-2100, Fresno Dod - 559 431-4000 and Madera Dodge - 559- 674 -5661. I then told him they were a considerable distance from my home and how were they going to pick up the car. He told me it was my problem! I responded with - that is not the correct answer and that D/C will soon be reading about the treatment Viper owners are receiving in the newspapers and magazines. Shortly, thereafter, he called my house and and said "he researched the issue and that we had to call the dealer and discuss it with them."

I called the first number - it was wrong - it was a residential number, please do not call them. I called the second number and after waiting on hold for about 5 minutes or so I spoke to somebody in the body shop and they said they were "certified" to repair to the car. I was really angry by this time and did not want to engage in conversation, but did ask "how were they going to pick up our car?" He said he would call back. Haven't heard from him yet!

Questions:
1) does anyone know these dealers? or so what is your opinion of them?
2) why are we being treaty in such a shoddy manner?
3) why are they ignoring our posting?
4) why is D/C hiding behind the skirts of a PR company?

Anyway, I think that we, the VIPER NATION need to unite!

 

[kenvw]

I would not be satisfied with the extended warranty as my car will be going with me to New Zealand and I doubt the warranty would be of any use outside the USA.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Getting a proper fix is the most important phase.

The Extended warranty is to off set any stigma lingering with those cars involved.

 

[VOI9 ASP]

How about DC takes 4 to 8 top tech's and send them around to the 4 regions to make the repairs.

I would not trust my Viper with Fresno Dodge or Madera Dodge. Neither one cares about Vipers. They are truck people. Not to be trusted with our snakes. One of Fresno Dodges employees took one of my Vipers for a 50 mile joy ride a few years ago and then denied anything happened. I have not returned since. Most of the Viper owners in our area agree. They are not Viper friendly!

 

[Daffy Duck Viper]

This is all heading towards the owners with the "flawed" Vipers getting royally burned. Sad. So very sad. Time to start getting lawyers involved. Show them how serious you are. That's what I say. It's what I'd do if I owned one. I know it's easy for me to say that, not owning one, but if this whole thing can irritate me, and I'm not even an owner, just how p!ssed do the owners need to get before they get a lawyer on the case? You're gonna get screwed six ways from Sunday.

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[Viperfreak2]

iF SOMEONE TOOK MY vIPER FOR A 50 MILE JOY RIDE (OOPS, caps lock) I'd sue. I guess that's why I check the odometer and let all the service guys see me do it before leaving it. Same thing with the stereo installation dudes. They said they needed 6 hours to install a bazooka triangle. uh huh.

 

[TRAMP 13]

Don't have my viper yet but if I had one with problems I would agree with Sir Fang.I would use this solution on any major problems that may occur with this viper or any future viper. They build the car let them repairs them.

 

[gtsviper]

Viper owners just don't seem happy unless they are whining about something. We are also the most egocentric group of car owners (short of Porsche and Ferrari owners that is).
Dodge was upfront about the problem and let us know shortly after THEY discovered it. They developed a technical fix quickly and implemented it. They tried to provide some accomodations for the inconvenience but certain people with an entitlement mentality want engine mods and extended warranties for the entire car. How about a trip to Germany to speak with Dieter?
I agree that the dealer's technical capabilities **** when it comes to Viper repairs and this is a MAJOR issue that Dodge needs to address. We've been saying that for years and maybe this will bring the issue to a head. Good...it's about time. If the dealers lose money on the fix, I could not care less. Good service departments will know how to do it efficiently and if they can't they can work that problem out with Dodge. There is no excuse for them to do poor quality work because they can't make money.
As far as the valves being a major problem though...I just don't buy it. If you don't like the fact that your car was affected, ask Dodge to buy it back from you and let them sell it after the repair. I bet they will not have any trouble selling them under these circumstances.

 

[knuk]

GTSVIPER - I take it that you don't own an SRT that has the valve problem?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

gtsviper,

I have several people in this region who want one thing. Their car fixed properly-like those that were not shipped. They were repaired by replacing the head assembly and the cars inspected by CAAP and Reliable before leaving the plant.

Those that were shipper were told ISG (Impartial Services Group, Inc, 2777 N Stemmons FWY STE 1425, Dallas, TX). would schedule the work. I have no idea what ISG's MISSION Statement is but it certainly in not related to good service or quality! This company knows nothing about servicing a Viper! Referred us to a dealership that no longer exist(ended in March) and who's Viper Tech's moved on many months ago. Then we receive a letter "Accord and Satisfaction"? That acknowledges that DCC has given me good consideration including BS! BS! BS!

The owners(I can speak of several in this area) want their cars fixed like the others that did not get shipped or by an experienced organization that will do a proper job without causing more damage to the car.

And DC can keep the $300.00 and free car offered during the repair!

Those stuck in this mess Want One Thing! The Cars Fixed Right! The warranty issue is simple these cars come with a 7yr 70,000 drive line warranty for the original warranty. To off set the Stigma a transferrable warranty would be nice and Bump to Bumper nicer.

 

[Cris]

Fred, many in other areas are in the same boat. Even in the shadow of DC headquarters in Auburn Hills (10 miles from my house). There is NO dealer within an hours drive that I would take my car to for this repair. I have no idea where one does exist. But I am only 1/2 hour away from where the cars were repaired that were caught before shipping.

ISG still has not contacted me. I received the "letter" a couple of weeks ago but no personal contact. It may be affected as I picked my car up at CAAP and not at a dealer. So I am still waiting for "the call" and the responses to my many questions.

So far I can state unquivically that I would not sign the document that was shown, and I would hesitate in taking the car to a dealer for normal service. The thought of that service experience scares the Helll out of me. That does not leave many options at this time. Either DC changes their stance and becomes more customer oriented, or I start looking at alternatives that would alleviate the need to go through the experience.

Until then I have curtailed driving to a minimum. I will have the car dynoed May 24 to get a baseline. I want to know with absoluteness that I am getting what I paid a lot of dollars for.

I should add that I have also put on hold the purchase and/or installation of any upgrades that I had planned as the future of this car is now uncertain. If others are doing this as well it has a downstream impact on our venders. Sorry George but my order is on hold/pending until this situation clears.

 

[knuk]

Chris,
if they buy it back from me do you think they can also locate, buy, and return to me the GTS & RT/10 that I sold in order to get the SRT?

 

[Cris]

Not likely. Buy back is in my mind a last ditch effort. Not a preferrable solution, but one that would prevent a real loss on our parts. We need to create a win - win scenario. Any scenario with a loss on the owner's side should be considered unacceptable.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

We drive 2-3 hours in Chicago for good service, but that just seems to be what we have grown to expect. I guess us fat guys treat our cars like food, as long as it's good we will be there!!!

 

[Milksnake]

I am constantly amazed by people like GTS who do not own the car, yet want to tell us what we should or should not do or what we should or should not feel. Sorry, unless someone is in the same position as we are, - bought a car on a promise - sight unseen, based on loyalty and honor then you are in no position to address the issue of "how to handle the intake valve issue."

A couple points I would like to address: 1) having the car repaired in a shop of our choice would void the warranty; 2) if we made individual claims in small court I doubt very much a judge would be sympathetic to our cause; and 3) where is the support from National VCA when we need them.

We have at stake: 1) loss of value; 2) loss of reputation; and 3) loss of speed!

In addtition, the inconvenience of being without a car during the prime driving season. It seems that the only solution would be for D/C to pick-up the cars (through Reliable) and return them to CAAP to be repaired and then return them back through Reliable or to give us an option for them to buy-back the cars and allow us to buy the new 2004 for the price we paid for our 2003. This would be a win-win for all parties. We could have either our present car repaired corrrectly or D/C could have the car back and repair it and give us the option to buy a new car that is flawless.

 

[gtsviper]

aspviper...I have an SRT that was held at the factory before delivery. I still don't know if the valves were replaced and if they were, I don't know who did it. I assume (as does Fred)that the factory folks did it but whether they replaced the heads or just the valves I don't know.
There seems to be 2 issues here. 1) the valves;and 2)poor dealer service and lack of good technicians at the dealers.
If I keep them separate it is easier for me to deal with the issues. Assuming my car did have the valves replaced, I am in the same position as anyone that has the same repair done. This means that my SRT is a valve-replaced car..just like the others.
For those that took delivery of cars before the fix, now the issue is getting competent techs to do the work. Here I am in complete agreement with practically everyone. I am lucky (I hope) that qualified people did the work. Dodge MUST ensure that they have enough qualified techs in the field to do the job properly. I'm not an expert but most people feel that this is not a complicated fix but I have had many other simple problems screwed up (and new ones created) by the dealers when I have had my 4 other Vipers in for service. This is unacceptable. As I stated in an earlier post, maybe Dodge will use this as an opportunity to improve the quality of the dealer service we get. It is in everyone's best interest. We save time and stress, the dealers get better qualified techs and Dodge reduces warranty expense.
I agree that sending out tech task forces to do repairs in certain geographic areas might be a solution that works. We get the work done by qualfied techs, and Dodge knows it's been done right.
Now once these cars are repaired properly in the field, we are back to the issue of the valve replacement. As my car was likely repaired before delivery, I am not eligible for the $300 and other consideration Dodge is providing to the others. Yet I still have a valve-replaced car. When you look at it that way, I am WORSE off than those who had their valves replaced in the field (assuming Dodge addresses the quality issue) It's simple logic!
I just reached 500 miles on my car and I am ready to enjoy it. Valves or no valves, I like the car, the ownership experience I get from Dodge, Woodhouse and my friends at VCA and Viper Club of SoCal. I guess I'm ahead after all.

 

[Cris]

gtsviper. I understand much of what you say, and without trying to be argumentative, I don't agree that your SRT is worse off, or even impacted by the change. I say that because yours was repaired using production built cylinder heads within a DC repair facility. Really no different than any car that went to the repair area at CAAP for a major repair. It happens every day. When you picked up your car you had the right to inspect it and refuse delivery if any aspect did not meet your expectations.

For the rest of us we already own the car. If some damage occurs during servicing it we have no recourse. A scratch would be touched up by the dealer rather than CAAP where the panel would be replaced. If our cars are out for service for any length of time it will be after we have paid for it and while we insure it. Yes, anyone who does not keep full insurance on their car while getting serviced is taking a big chance. The dealer is not insuring your vehicle. I know of 2 Vipers damaged severely while at a dealer that the owner's insurance had to pick up. Your car has a clean warranty history. That is a person looking up your vehicles history will not know that it was repaired. Ours will be easy to ascertain just by checking the warranty history. A blemish, unless this gets corrected properly, with lasting negative impact.

I could go on and on, but the essence is if yours was repaired before delivery, it is like cars built every day (look in the repair area at CAAP and you will know what I mean).

I say enjoy your new SRT and forget that the repair ever happened. Because it does not matter.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

After considering same it seems that an option for owners without a quality warranty service center could have the option to decline the $300.00, etc. Instead opt to have their car corrected by DC using the same facility and tech's that repaired the quarantined cars and same quality inspection plan as the cars corrected before being shipped.

And for owners near Tators's Dodge, Woodhouse, Buhler, Roanoke the proposed solution may work well.



Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to listen and discuss our concerns! I am optimistic we will find a good remedy.

 

[gtsviper]

Chris...I do see your point and do consider myself luckier than most to have had the work done at CAAP. I also agree with your point that it does not really matter. So far I love the SRT and I hope that came through in my post.
I'm sure that other warranty issues will develop and I'll have to take it to the local knuckleheads and go thru the same stress anyway...just over something different.
My hope is to present a reasonable position to anyone from DC who may read this forum so owners maintain credibility. IMO, this will allow us to continue to influence things that affect us as Viper owners. Remember that 1500-2000 Vipers per year do not make a dent in the bottom line for DC. Having said that, the amount of influence we have is greater than any owners group that I know of. Dodge knows we are concerned about the valve issue and they are trying. Knowing some of the people at PVO...they will keep trying until they work it out. Unfortunately some will still not like or agree with the solutions but that happens everyday. I would hate to see the people who work at CAAP and PVO come to think of us as unreasonable and emotional about every issue that arises. Then we would be just like all other car customers.
As Dodge says...we are DIFFERENT. Let's give them a chance and see how they work this out. Remember...panic is NEVER the appropriate response.

 

[knuk]

Has anyone heard anything from DC yet? Or are they just going to try to stick it to us with their original offer?
GTSViper - You are not worse off - you have exactly what everyone else wants which is a car that has been repaired properly! I don't give a **** about the $500 (Canadian!) that they want to give me - I just want a proper repair job and the performance that I PAID FOR.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I do not know of any time the Viper Nation had it stuck to them?

That said, the solution for owners without a proper service provider has yet to be defined.

I am sure PVO wants us to have a proper fix. If the repairs are not done properly there will be additional warranty cost, etc. I feel the program offered via ISG is not appropriate for all owners and all areas. It is not a perfect world.

Feel free to e-mail([email protected]) me if you feel the solution for you is to have your car repaired by PVO or their sub used for the other cars(not shipped) involved. And give up the USD300.00 Mopar credit, loaner car, tank of gas, etc. The repair may take 3-4 weeks due to shipping and scheduling.

There is no rush, the intake valves will not cause motor damage. We can drive our cars just be selective when of if you get a little competitive.

 

[Herman Buehrle]

Thinking "out of the box". First, Dodge knows what needs replacing. Second, they know what is needed to make the fix, both in tools and extras i.e. gaskets. So, my thought is, appointments can be made at any dealer close to those affected Vipers, and Dodge can fly a "certified repair person" in to the city, with all necessary tools, parts, and equipment. The repair person gets picked up at the airport by the dealer, and they can go to that convenient Dodge dealer, do the repairs, and I think everyone would come out happy. The dealer, especially if they are not a "prefered" dealer, gets to see how they (the dealer)should be treating their customers, and their repair people get a chance to see real work done on a Viper by experienced repair people. How about it?

 

[SRTRICK]

For those of you involved with this issue, I was wondering if you had heard that your engines may not actually have any or many of the involved valves. My recent understanding is that some engines may include some of the valves in question. I have heard that a batch of valves that did not recieve the final detailing were used in the batch of engines involved with the issue. while it is possible that someone has the intake valves in question in all positions in their engine, it is also posible that some valves may be correct and some bad, or it is possible that you may have an engine with all correct valves. Unfortunately there is no way to know which engines have which valves, and they are all being replaced regardless of whether they are good or bad. I understand from a local dealer that one involved engine had the valves replaced with identical new valves just to be sure they were ok. I'm not sure what this means in the bigger picture, but I did think it was interesting.

I think if my car were involved, I would just use the car this season, and take the opportunity of the r&r at the end of the season to have the heads massaged.

 

[Mike Brunton]

I don't think any "solution" is going to come forth from PVO or DC on this issue, and here's why.

This board is a good resource, but it doesn't represent but a fraction of Viper owners. I was dropping off some packages this week and noticed a yellow Viper and when I saw the owner, he had no clue what "viperclub.org" was.

These folks who don't know about this site are going to get this letter and are going to take it up with ISG (if they have a beef) who will tell them there is no option but to get it fixed at the dealer. Some cars have already been fixed.

Imagine if you were the guy who grudgingly got your car fixed at the dealer, only to find out other Vipers got some sort of bonus beyond what you got, or (even worse) they got their car fixed at the factory. Those un-Viperclub-savvy owners will be screaming to DC for equal treatment.

The offer has already been made... it's public. Some have already accepted. It's too late for DC to offer an "alternative" solution, IMO.

The real problem here is that PVO should have sounded off through the board or at least through the VCA on this issue BEFORE they implemented some sort of fix. People talk about resolutions being reached and so forth. It ain't gonna happen. What's on the table is all that's going to be put on the table, I think. As great as this site is, I don't think I've ever seen a truly favorable solution to a mass problem. Remember the oil pan issue on ACR's? Or the shock issue? Owners crusaded for those causes for months with little to no satisfaction - certainly less satisfaction than has already been offered by DC.

As a business owner I completely understand what it's like to be in DC's shoes here. I sympathize with them, but they already made the offer and it can't be altered or retracted now, IMO.