Not Happy

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I have the best interest of DC and the owners involved.

If these repairs get screwed up and I am sure some will (How many Viper Techs have been trained how to remove the SRT10 heads and replace their valves?) their will be hell to pay and law suits with merit.

A class action may seem interesting but to me it is not the appropriate action based on the good Viper owner-DC relationship.

I want a solution that makes all parties win. Proper fix that has no long or short term quality or long term relailability related problems. Perhaps a regional service center could be defined to deal with these cars. Have Trained Techs at an appropriate facility do the work rather then a mechanic who has never been trained for or touched a SRT10. I also suspect there is damage being done to the valve seat and am sure some will disagree but I do not care about conjecture only the facts and an appropriate fix.

We have a regional VCA meeting this Tue. Anyone in interested in this problem may want to attend this meeting. My intention is not to beat or screw DC but to find a WIN-WIN solution.

If you have a rational idea to resolve this problem please post it or send me an e-mail.

 

[knuk]

You are correct Fred, we would like to see a win - win situation. Having regional repair centers is a good idea but have to be convenient enough to all of those affected. If I have to bring my car to California it is not convenient unless the repair takes place during the next winter and DC pays to have the cars shipped to one of these "repair centers" - it would mean a whole summer with a car that is not up to par
If the repairs are done during the summer it means the loss of the car during the driving season...

 

[knuk]

Fred, possibly the trained technicians could travel around the various regions to to the repairs. This would make it convenient for all even though we would have to wait till the tech is in our area before the repair can be done...I would be willing to wait.

 

[Milksnake]

" I also suspect there is damage being done to the valve seat and am sure some will disagree but I do not care about conjecture only the facts and an appropriate fix."

Based upon what Fred said (see above) should we all stop driving our cars to prevent any further damage (that D/C would not fix)?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

The official instructions are to drive and enjoy your car.

That is what I am doing.

When the heads come off they will be inspected and serviced as required. If the seats are not damaged great. If the damaged is substantial also great and I get a new set of heads.

 

[GTS Dean]

" I also suspect there is damage being done to the valve seat and am sure some will disagree but I do not care about conjecture only the facts and an appropriate fix."

Based upon what Fred said (see above) should we all stop driving our cars to prevent any further damage (that D/C would not fix)?

I think this is being blown completely out of reasonable proportion. Nothing bad is going to happen to your engine by contituing to run it. I have heard NO official destription of EXACTLY what about the intake valves is out of spec. My guess is they missed a machining angle (one of at least 4) on the valve. The way I see this situation, the biggest downside to the owners is disappointing dyno or heads-up street racing results.

If D-C fixes the valve issue, all they seem to want is for those affected to give up on the poor performance ******** rights for the time prior to the fix. They aren't asking to give up your rights to warranty work after the fix. They are just hoping to avoid the situation that plagued the Ford Cobras that were supposed to have 390 hp, but fell substantially short. Ford went into the denial phase, whereas Daimler-Chrysler has been very up-front about the whole thing.

Get real, folks!!!!!!

 

[knuk]

GTSdean - what do you mean when you say "give up the poor performance ******** rights"?
All we want is to have are cars repaired properly and to get the performance that WE PAID FOR.
So please stop the crap when you tell us to "get real folks"
Do you have own of the SRT's with the valve problem??

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

GTSDean,

Thanks for letting us know what you think! Your expert opinion is noted!

Let me tell you what I think! The loss of power is due to poor seal caused by a the last grind being skipped.

The exhaust valve sheds most of its heat through the seat, so when the face and seat contact is reduced, the valve starts to run hot. Eventually the buildup of heat weakens the metal and pieces of it start to break or flake away. Once this happens, it forms a hot spot that accelerates the process all the more. The valve begins to leak more and compression drops. The result is a weak or dead cylinder and a noticeable drop in engine power, smoothness and performance. And now a major repair cost for DC.

I know the Viper motor GEN2 motor has a solid reliability history winning Le Mans etc. But not with leaky valves and we have no history on the GEN3 motor.

That said who really cares as long as a proper fix is provided. To me a proper fix is done by a mechanic with Viper motor building experience.

It is not fair to expect a Neon mechanic to know how to pull the heads on a Viper motor and replace the valves without causing real and/or cosmetic damage to these cars. This puts the dealership and mechanic in a bad position. And DC will be forced to correct the errors of all (mechanic and dealership) parties.

 

[Tony Estes]

Fred the only valves that are wrong are the intake valves.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Thanks Tony,

My error! The intake valves may or may not react in the same manner.

We simply want the job done right!

 

[Dead President]

Who isn't going to dyno their SRT at least after the repair ? How could you not. You'd always wonder.

I am going to dyno mine before and after.

Add 1 or 2 dyno trips to the headache list caused by this goof. $300 is not nearly enough for this inconvenience. They are treating us like Dodge owners!

I vote for Caldwell to do the work. If they can build LeMans engines . . .
Besides, they are only 10 miles away!

 

[knuk]

I think DC should pay for us to dyno the car after the repair if it's not 100%, then back to the shop until they get it right.

 

[EXECMALIBU]

DC IS NOT BEING HONORABLE!

DC SOLD VIPERS THAT WERE REPRESENTED AS HAVING 500HP AND SOME OF THEM HAVE LESS HP! THIS IS DUE DIRECTLY TO DC AND/OR THEIR SUB-CONTRACTORS.

THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOW SAYING THAT THEY SCREWED UP IS ONLY AN ATTEMPT TO COVER THEIR ASSES FROM FUTURE LITIGATION..HENCE THE RELEASE!

DC IS OFFERING TO PAY THE DEALERS FOR 6.2 HOURS TO REMOVE AND REPLACE BOTH HEADS PLUS INSTALLING 10 VALVES..THIS IS A JOKE! THEY MEAN PER HEAD? RIGHT??

DC ONLY PAYS THEIR DEALERS $45-48 PER HOUR FOR WARRANTY REPAIRS. THIS EQUATES TO THEM PAYONG LESS THAN $300 TO HAVE BOTH HEADS REMOVED AND ALL 10 VALVES REPLACED!

I CALLED THE LOCAL DODGE DEALER THIS MORNING AND ASKED HOW MUCH TO REPLACE THE INTAKE VALVES ON A NEON.. THE SERVICE WRITER SAID THAT IT WOULD BE AROUND $1,200!

BASED ON HOW DC FIGURED THE SRT-1O REPAIRS AT $300(V-10 WITH 2 HEADS VS 4 CYLINDER 1 HEAD) THE COST TO DO A NEON VALVE JOB SHOULD BE AROUND $75..

LETS SEE WHAT THE DEALER SAYS WHEN I OFFER THEM $75...

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I would like to know how many dealerships have be authorized to pull heads under warranty? Time frame 1992 to 2002.

The dealerships that visit this site are staying below the radar on the Hot potato.

This program was a quick PR approach to the problem with little to no implementation and logistics consideration.

This problem is passed along to the dealerships to correct and the dealerships lack the resources to implement a quality solution leaving the owners and dealerships at odds. Some dealerships may try to correct the problem and screw up a paint job on a 84,000 car, put the motor back together with contamination in the cylinders, air tool marks the motors(which new look great) and get paid less then it cost to repair.

Everyone is a loser under the present program.

 

[knuk]

I called DC in Canada today and spoke to the rep who first advised me that my car was one of the problem cars. I thought I should at least start by calling DC and voicing my concerns and hope all other owners do the same.
I asked her if a Viper tech would be working on my SRT and if so what sort of experience he/she has on replacing valves on a SRT? Her answer was that techs will be trained on corporate cars before they fix customers BUT she still had to check to see if my dealership would actually have one if these trained techs.
I voiced my concern regarding doing the job in a "clean" shop to prevent contamination in the cylinders, and how the motor and body of the car is flawless now and I would hate to see it returned in any other condition - no marks or scratches.
I asked how they were going to prove to me that when the car is repaired that it has 500hp and 525 torque - she said that the valve replacement would give the car those numbers but I repeated that I would like some sort of proof - dyno?
My last comment to DC was the fact that people are starting to say that they would never buy one of the "problem cars" and this has probably depreciated my car now. I suggested that DC make these cars "special" by giving them a port and polish.
I was told all of the comments will go on my file and they will get back to me.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Just a brief observation, but I noted you are in Cary , North Carolina, and I am sure you will be able to have your car shipped to D& E Dodge ,in
Wilmington. Your one fear that an unseasoned Viper Tech will work on your car can be alleviated , as Tom Sessions is not only one of the best in the
country, he is also the Tech Inspector for Viper Days. Give him a call, and I am sure he can help you with some of your concerns.

1-910-799-4210
Tom Sessions

 

[Mike Brunton]

My SRT is "one of the affected ones" I think, but actually I let the dealer keep mine in favor of a 2004 (hoping for YELLOW), but as someone who experienced a "near miss", I have to agree with Fred.

I have done quite a few valve replacements on various cars... and personally, my biggest concerns would be that DC is *NOT* allowing enough time to R&R the valves. Hence, either the dealer takes their time and gets screwed (bad deal for the dealer) or they do it quick quick quick and rush and maybe forget something (bad deal for the customer). Now, the GOOD dealers who we DO trust to do this work probably don't WANT 50 SRT's coming in that they are going to lose a ton of shop time on. I feel bad for guys like Tator who will probably work god knows how many unpaid hours fixing valves right. Furthermore, my LOCAL dealer consists of a bunch of ill-trained monkeys. I'd NEVER trust them. We hear the stories about the dealers f-ing up cars or dinging them, leaving them outside, causing damage and denying it later.

IF the tech
-scratches your fender
-Forgets to route the wires/hoses the way the factory did
-tears one of your plug boots
-nicks the cylinder head chamber with a tool
-drops some dirt into the valve tract

or any other number of things - are you going to know about it? Or will they say "screw it" and just button 'er back up? What would YOU do if you were the tech working 15-18 hours and getting paid for 6? Would you take time to clean the area, put towels/drapes down, degrease the area, immaculately clean the heads, etc, etc, or would you rush the job because it's not YOUR car and you ain't getting paid for it. I bet at least a few SRT's will suffer due to this 'repair'.

As Fred says, if a machining step was missed, the pressure at the area where the valve meets the head would be significantly raised. Enough to cause damage? I dunno. If it was possible the head may be gouged because of it, would DC admit it and R&R all the heads, or would they just R&R the valves and wait for potentially affected owners to come forth later with legitimate problems due to the valves?

I think DC needs to extend the warranty for the affected cars. And not let joe-greasemonkey dealer do the work when he's never touched a set of Viper heads before, has never done a valve job on a Viper, probably rarely does valve jobs anyways, and isn't getting paid even half of what it will take to do the job.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Hi Bill Pemberton,

Do the owners in California Canada send their cars to Woodhouse? Chuck Tator? or D & E Dodge?

There are no, identified, Viper friendly dealerships in California! That is why Woodhouse sells so many Vipers to California Viperholics.

Do you think Bob would like to do a 100 of these cars?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Mike,

Agree with your warranty Idea. How about a special Bumper to Bumper warranty that stays with the car. That should remove the long term concerns about the motor. Keep the $300.00 and loaner car. Give those $$ to the Viper Tech.

 

[JonB]

..... My guess is they missed a machining angle (one of at least 4) on the valve...

As with 99.723% of the time, Dean is correct on this point.

Contrary to my post of last week, the CORRECT REPLACEMENT valves are now RELEASED and I held a new valve in my hands today...... the "bad" valve was indeed easy for CAAP to miss. One of the TINY (1mm?) angles was not finish-ground, but you had to look closely to see it the first time.

Furthermore, they look 'almost exactly' like one could substitute the STAINLESS Gen-1 / Gen 2 oversized valves from MoPar.

 

[Edward 96GTS]

Jon,
What would be the point in using a stainless gen 2 oversized valve?
Ed

 

[EXECMALIBU]

JON B,

IT DOES NOT SEEM POSSIBLE THAT JUST 1MM OF SURFACE OF THE VALVE NOT BEING FULLY POLISHED COULD CAUSE A 25+ HP REDUCTION?

I THOUGHT THAT A MULTI ANGLE VALVE JOB WAS MORE FOR DURABILITY THAN PERFORMANCE..

 

[luc]

the way the program is set-up now,
it's a loose-loose situation for everyone involved,the owners,dealers and DC.

Dealers will refuse to do the job (why loosing money) or do it badly to stay in the time alloted.
Owners will never know if the job was done correctly and the car have more chance to be damaged (paint scatchs,fasteners damaged,etc) than if the car didn't have the problem to start with.
And it's bad PR for DC.

but it is DC responsability to see that the customer get what he paid for,in the long run DC will better off to do it correctly (even if that mean sending the car back to the factory and spending $2k extra per car to do it).

luc
00GTS
03SRT (ordered)

 

[knuk]

It has been reported that 200 cars are affected...that's over $16,000,000 (24 million Canadian) worth of sales for DC. Think they should try a little harder in the customer satisfaction area??

 

[JonB]

CLARIFICATIONS........

I earlier stated something about the "the valve replacements at CAAP" intending to mean UNDELIVERED cars. Someone challenged this comment in another thread so I will clarify here:

As you know, about 275 or so CARS were affected. Some cars were not yet shipped (148) and Some motors not yet installed; the DELIVERED cars (only about 130??) are the hottest topic of this thread.

CAAP fixed all uninstalled motors as well as the unstreetable 'hot chassis' at CAAP. CAAP also built correctly-valved heads for expeditious replacement into the 148 already-built cars. These cars and heads were transported to a "nearby DC facility" and the correctly valved heads swapped out there. (Mentioned elsewhere, this faclity is in Sterling Heights MI.) The take-out new heads were returned to CAAP.
-------------------------------

I also suggested later that the great stainless 2.02 MoPar intakes valves of Gen 2 might be a direct replacement IF--IF a person was to do some opportunistic porting and polishing. The SRT has 2.00 valves....the MoPar stainless are 2.02. Im still checking stem lengths, but it appears aa likely UPGRADE for some so inclined........

-------------------------------
Finally....Some of us here were once 10X - 20X as active with 'free advice to the best of our ability'. The potshots get old, and the helpers get scarcer.

I want to thank Joe Houss for being available and hooked up and honest with us here.....while walking a P.C. tightrope with D-C, while some of you take ***-shots. Even tho he can clearly take the heat, Please Don't Shoot At Your Ally. You only make his unpaid job more difficult. And the next time he has a choice, he might chose the easier path. Would'nt you ??

 

[Cris]

JonB.

First I want to apologize if any of my comments were taken as potshots. They were not intended to be as such.

The primary point that I was trying to make is that the valves were not replaced individually, but as cylinder head assemblies. It may seem nearly the same. However, to one who has observed many engine assembly lines, the difference between a head built to a standardized process, including all in-line and audit checks to verify the assembly function and a mechanic or technician installing them in a head on a work bench and just reassembling the engine is significant. In a normal cylinder head assembly process (note I cannot verify Connor's process) the combustion chambers are tested for sealing via pressurization and a measured leak rate. When valves are installed at a dealership what is the check?

A racer or experienced engine builder may blue the seats and make sure he gets full contact (a nice even, relatively thin line of contact) when the valve is seated. Or he will true the surfaces by lapping in the valves. But if these are not done what is the check to make sure that one of the valves is not nicked or out-of-round (high runout)? Visual inspection is not good enough for my tastes. Laser gauging the valves and runout testing the seats. That would be okay in the hands of a valvetrain expert but not a normal dealer mechanic. Leakdown testing after assembly. That is possible as it could verify a gross leak. But it is not a very repeatable test and test limits would be unavoidably large.

These reasons among others are why I am in favor of the regional facility where technicians perform the procedures, using both assembly procedures and in-process tests that would be acceptable in production. Note these are NEW cars, and are expected to be as good as any other new car when completed. If critical process or component controls are bypassed then the product in some way is cheapened.

I have not even got into the difference between using hand torque wrenches in reassembly of the cylinder heads versus the production automated and simultaneous head bolt tightening fixture. There is no way that in-field head replacement will attain the same level of cylinder head bolt tightening than on-line.

Obviously there has to be some give and take as a true production process cannot be replicated. But having Joe mechanic at my local Dodge dealership perform the repair with minimal training, with no experience and with tools/gauging that are far inferior to that used in lab built or assembly built engines, is just not acceptable to me.

With new cars I believe we have significantly more leverage than previous issues. Can you imagine Dodge buying back or replacing all of these vehicles? That is one alternative that may be pursued if other reasonable alternatives are not identified. I would rather miss a summer and wait for a replacement than be stuck with a car that has a lower intrinsic value due to an issue that was created at initial assembly. Let's find a solution that does not result in a lower intrinsic value to ANY of the affected cars.

 

[JonB]

Cris,

You bring up a very valid dual-point...the kind that often surfaces from clear-headed, unemotional discourse. Anyone who has visited CAAP since 5/02 will immediately realise them. They are:

The "Completed Motor" Checks CAAP performs on the newly-assembled motors are impressive and extensive. Even BEFORE the motor is installed and the hot-rolling-chassis test occurs later.

a) I wonder why the dual tests did not discover this vendor oversight waaaay earlier.

b) The 'repaired' motors will certainly not have the benefit of this first test...but I bet a LOT of the affected bretheren will perform a Dyno

P.S. an OR VCA member (RW) today just walked away from his Valve Job SRT. Sold the SRT back to the dealer. It was his parts and process I was following closely. I will watch the repairs and report.

PPS. The OE IM bolts were indeed allen bolts, not TorX

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

First am not apologizing if any of my comments were taken as potshots.

The car(approx 130 if JohB's info is correct) owners I know want their cars fixed with the same quality and repair procedure as those fixed before shipping.

What is offered instead is your car picked up at your house or you can drop it off and get a car during the repair time. The cars would be repaired by a nonexistent dealership with no Viper Techs, if we were not aware of the service dynamics in our area.

 

[Cris]

Agree Fred. In reading concerns noted from all regions, there is one common theme. That is that they do not have a dealer where they feel assured that this repair would be done correctly without ensuing some other damage. That is the central concern noted by most. Only a few dealers in the US appear to be qualified.

We need an action to bridge this shortcoming.

 

[Joseph Houss]

Here's some info:

First and foremost, PVO has been actively viewing this topic, and do concern themselves with your valid sensitivity to this issue.

It is my understanding that we, the "valve-issue" customers, can decide where we take his car (within logical geographic boundaries), and Dodge is providing transportation to and from that dealer if you would rather not take the drive.

There seems to be a few regions in particular, that unfortunately don't have a "Viper friendly" dealer, and this issue is being addressed as we speak.

Hang in there.

This is a VALVE replacement for maximizing horsepower (awesome published level!). In my humble opinion, It does not seem that it would be realistic to think that your car is at LESS risk of scratches, damage, etc if you pull the motor and send it out... as the SAME Mechanic that some are suggesting can't do a valve swap....will have to disconnect all fittings, connectors, fuel lines, brackets, etc .... lift that baby up, crate it..... and then do the same thing once again... on the way back in....after storing it for quite a while as well.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be logical (just my opinion) that the ultimate scenario would be to satisfy all concerns by finding a mega-qualified tech that will quickly AND carefully, and with all TLC, complete the upgrade expediently. I believe this would be the ultimate scenario for Dodge as well, as they would be responsible for any mishaps, additional servicing, etc if the job is not done absolutely perfect... and that is what PVO is striving for right now!

As far as the "loss of value" suggestions, as an SRT owner myself, I believe that the FACT that you will HAVE a document confirming that the service has been performed, will be an ADDED value, as when it's time to upgrade that baby for your next Viper... you will have the ability to prove that your 2003 is guaranteed to have the latest and greatest, maximum HP, valves installed.

As far as extending the warranty? All SRT owners already have 7/70 on engine and drivetrain..... I'm sure any issue with the replaced valves would surely present themselves before then?