Oil Pick up for Racing

[Kai SRT10]

I'm curious about the oil pick up for Vipers that race.

I could see where if you were going round and round on a high-speed oval, the oil would tend to collect on one edge of the oil pan, and you might have issues gettin sufficient oil pick up.

My car has never seen an oval. I get to the track now and again, but the tracks I visit are twisty-turning road courses. If what happens to the driver is any indication, the oil in the pan is getting sloshed back and forth constantly, as I am turning, braking, and accelerating constantly. I'm usually driving "hot laps" for no more than a half hour or so between cooldowns. I've never noticed any lack of oil pressure while racing, and I keep a pretty regular eye on the gauges.

Should I be worried about oil pick-up? Should I invest in the oil pick-up thingie?

Anyone out there with any first hand experience in this area?

Kai

 

[Vipera Russelli]

I talked with Courtney at Viper Days yesterday and she warned me about this oil pan issue. Remembering your post above, I tried your “high-speed oval” theory on her, which I thought was a reasonable argument , to which she replied "doesn't matter, any really hard left-hand turn, even if between right-hand turns, can result in catastrophic engine damage so long as you have the stock oil pan.” Rats. I’m starting to get too much money in my Viper to risk easily preventable damage, especially given that my warranty is becoming of questionable value. So today I called JonB at PartRack who immediately made a few phone calls and fixed me up with the oil pan and lifter arm set up that is the same fix being performed on the Comp Coupe for this very problem. I got a really great price from him and it drop ships tomorrow.

So in short order I'll have both the oil pan and the roll bar that I though I already had, hehe. If it was already perfect, we couldn’t have fun perfecting it.

 

[Kai SRT10]

I talked with Courtney at Viper Days yesterday and she warned me about this oil pan issue. Remembering your post above, I tried your “high-speed oval” theory on her, which I thought was a reasonable argument , to which she replied "doesn't matter, any really hard left-hand turn, even if between right-hand turns, can result in catastrophic engine damage so long as you have the stock oil pan.” Rats. I’m starting to get too much money in my Viper to risk easily preventable damage, especially given that my warranty is becoming of questionable value. So today I called JonB at PartRack who immediately made a few phone calls and fixed me up with the oil pan and lifter arm set up that is the same fix being performed on the Comp Coupe for this very problem. I got a really great price from him and it drop ships tomorrow.

So in short order I'll have both the oil pan and the roll bar that I though I already had, hehe. If it was already perfect, we couldn’t have fun perfecting it.

Ugh! Seems like a car like this one should come with an oil pan that can handle hard cornering. Looks like It ought to be called and SrT-10, as the Racing part seems to have been overlooked in a few cases. (I too am installing an autoform bar, both for general peace of mind, and so I can participate in the Sandhills race this Summer.)

Looks like I'll be making another call to Jon at Parts Rack about the oil pick-up. The wife is starting to get pissed at all the money I've been pumping into a brand new car (and I haven't even started on the exhaust mods yet.) Groan.

Kai

 

[Viper Specialty]

What is this "Lifter Arm" you mention? I have not heard anything about that until now. The oil pan and Swing arm, yes...but Lifter Arm...?

 

[Kai SRT10]

any really hard left-hand turn, even if between right-hand turns, can result in catastrophic engine damage so long as you have the stock oil pan.”

Can this be true!?!?! I find this hard to believe.

Sounds like not just a racing issue, but a simple driving issue to me.

Case in point: I live sort of out in the country. Driving home, I take a pretty empty two lane state highway. Long, smooth, empty, excellent line of sight. Speed limit is 50, but on occasion, I've been known to more than double that. I will often cruise down the road at triple digit speeds, stomp the brakes, rev the rpms, shift into 2nd, and crank a 90 degree left turn onto my road, testing the limits of that stock Michelin rubber. Should I be expecting my engine to grenade on me? This isn't racing, it's just "spirited driving" which is supposedly what the Viper is all about. If the Dodge engineers designed a car that will be destroyed with just a hard left turn, then something isn't right.

It it's true, then it ****** me off more than a little bit.

 

[SnakeEye]

any really hard left-hand turn, even if between right-hand turns, can result in catastrophic engine damage so long as you have the stock oil pan.”

Can this be true!?!?! I find this hard to believe.

Sounds like not just a racing issue, but a simple driving issue to me.

Case in point: I live sort of out in the country. Driving home, I take a pretty empty two lane state highway. Long, smooth, empty, excellent line of sight. Speed limit is 50, but on occasion, I've been known to more than double that. I will often cruise down the road at triple digit speeds, stomp the brakes, rev the rpms, shift into 2nd, and crank a 90 degree left turn onto my road, testing the limits of that stock Michelin rubber. Should I be expecting my engine to grenade on me? This isn't racing, it's just "spirited driving" which is supposedly what the Viper is all about. If the Dodge engineers designed a car that will be destroyed with just a hard left turn, then something isn't right.

It it's true, then it ****** me off more than a little bit.

It would seem as though if your engine were starved of sufficient oil because of a faulty or poor oil pan/pick-up design when making a sweeping left curve or sharp left during "spirited driving" and damage (as you’ve suggested) was to occur, it would probably be covered under warranty. Why not? One could conclude that if this was common or a statistically sufficient probability, DC would address the issue perhaps even with a recall so as to avoid the liability and/or excessive claims. It certainly would seem to be justifiable from a cost analysis angle. Of course, if you are racing your vehicle and it has a failure it would likely be on your nickel anyway (or your sponsor’s). It’s somewhat disappointing to think an optimal oil plan may have not been utilized for production vehicles; perhaps a question for the SRT team? This is after all, a Viper SRT10, one of the highest performance vehicles on the market today. Just my $.02.

 

[Viper Specialty]

From what I have gathered on this issue, the oil pickup problem will only occur when using other-than-stock tires, and exceeding 1.0G in a left-hand sweeping corner. (something quite hard to do on michelins, and on public roads)

 

[Janni]

I am not sure I'd be that confident. Taking an on ramp at speed can certainly push all the oil over to one side of the pan for a decent amount of time. I guess we're lucky most of them are right handers?

And let's see what happens are VOI - Texas Motor Speedway is a series of HUGE sweeping, banked, left handers.

Realistically, not an issue for the street unless you push 10/10th's - A LOT. But is an issue if you track your car. Gen I and Gen II folks had issues and grenaded more than a few motors on banked tracks - so that was solved with baffled pans.

Right now the only fix for the SRT is the Comp Coupe oil pan and pickup - to the tune of about $1500. Add the cost of a roll bar, and it's a high cost of entry to see if you might like this HPDE/ViperDays thing....

Skip Thomas (ViperDays) is working to address these issues and one way to do it is a speed limitiing computer for first time SRTs on the track - safer for you and safer for the car..... and no cost to try it out.

 

[SCLSSRT10]

I have had the Comp Coupe pan installed in my car. Since I plan on 5 or 6 Viper Days events I didn't want to risk the possibility of damage and potentially not being under warrantty due to "racing". Bit the bullett and had it installed at Roanoke two weeks ago. The really bad part was DC wanted the stock pan back. I'm still working on that with Roanoke. I have heard that VOI8 will be running the rack backwards so as not to create any potential problems. That being said I am sure the VD event being held immediately after VOI8 will be running the track in the normal counter clockwise(left hande turns) direction, I do not know that for sure at this time. The pan is baffled differently and the oil pick up has about a 60 degree range of "swing".

 

[kverges]

Looks like this issue is finally getting noticed by more owners. I noticed this over a year ago when I first took my SRT to the MotorSport Ranch. DC said they'd do nothing about it and that I should not track the car. I asked what the "R" was for and refused to spend the $1500 or so for a new oil pan and swing arm pickup (not lifter arm). I felt then and feel now that the car should EASILY handle 1G turns all day long and not starve for oil.

Long story short is no more SRT for me, my replacement production car has a dry sump and my crappy race car with race tires has no problem with a 4 qt, bone stock, wet sump.

I don't recommend tracking the SRT without some kind of oiling improvement and I'll tell you that a blown engine may only earn you a fight with DC over whether you "abused" your car, rather than warranty repair with a smile.

Not that DC cares, but after buying 5 new Vipers starting in 1994, I now own my "Final GTS" (which I love, BTW), but won't purchase another DC product.

 

[Kai SRT10]

Well, I bit the bullet today and ordered the oil pan. The good news is that the installation will be pretty cheap (estimate of $150 from the dealer.)

I'm a bit grumpy about this. Seems like if Dodge knows that the current oil pan doesn't work well, they ought to have changed it out for one that does work. I guess the "racing improves the breed" adage only holds true if Dodge is willing to take what they learn in racing and actually use it in the production car. It's a sports car, after all, and should be up to hard cornering. Now I'm going to be paranoid every time I pull a hard left turn until I get the oil pan changed.

Reminds me of an old punk rock song refrain:

"Can't go left in General Pinochet's Cadilac."

Kai

 

[NDW]

Has Dodge addressed this problem in the 2004 models, or do they have the same pan as the 2003's?

 

[Janni]

I don't believe Dodge views it as an "issue" for a street car - and therefore - no need to address it in production.

The answer is - as told to Keith Verges - buy a Comp Coupe oil pan/pickup.......

 

[Toddh]

Keith,

Can you share with us the result of your litigation with DC over this issue? Did they end up buying your SRT back?

It seems a difficult argument to defend that the oil pan issue isn't a design flaw if they are truly planning on _reversing_ the travel direction at TMS just for the sake of the oil pick up in the SRT-10s at VOI8.

Roll bars, oil pick up...*sigh* Good thing I have been too busy to go to the track...I guess. Although my Corvette should handle it well enough, so I guess that's an option ;-)

 

[ViperRay]

Must the oil pan and pickup be dealer installed to maintain warranty validity? I changed out the pan in my GTS (baffles, blah, blah, blah) on my lift...easy job. Also, if DC knows you are changing out the oil pan and pickup then they know you are "racing" it since it is otherwise not necessary. Is this a problem? After all, if they didn't put this system in, they don't want you to "race" it. They can't maintain such a contradictary position!

 

[JWALK35]

So if you have the dealer install the oil pan and pick up they will warranty the motor if you blow it at the track? Does anyone make an aftermarket pan and pick up?

 

[kverges]

I cannot share the results of my dispute with DC. I can say that DC's attitude about what should IMO be a track-worthy car soured me on DC permanently. I don't know about others, but I simply can't explore the full performance of the Viper (or for that manner any sports car) on the street. Curbs, poles, people and pets are just too abundant to try out the super handling, brakes and power (check out the upside-down SRT in Michigan).

I would have thought DC would want its halo car (or is it now just AMG?) to be used and seen on the track. Owners of other marques such as Porsche and BMW often think the Viper is a middle-aged-crazy poseur car and I enjoyed the few laps running with a GT3 Cup car on slicks to disabuse them of this notion.

Bottom line is that the oil pan issue was frustrating and the questions above still lingered in my mind, e.g. what if the engine lets go anyway after adding the pan? DC's attitude about tracking the car had me very concerned that there would be a big fight over abuse by taking the car to the track.

Simply stated: I won't have a sports car that I can't run at MotorSport Ranch and the occasional DE track event. So I don't have a SRT.

It is a shame, as DC's attitude used to be very different.

 

[Toddh]

Maybe someone will corner one of the DC execs or engineers at VOI8 on this issue and get them to say something about it. At the very least, they should come out and say positively one way or another whether tracking the car, as built (i.e., no slicks, etc.), constitutes "abuse" and whether engine failure resulting from the oil pan design is covered under warranty or would be covered if the Comp Coupe oil pan is installed by a dealer.

I would personally have a hard time believing that tracking the car at MSR is "abuse" that voids the warranty, when you're doing pretty much the same thing at VOI, which is supported by DC. That would be a pretty hard sell to a jury, judge, or a mediator.

My guess here is that DC/SRT will refuse to address the issue publicly and prefer to deal with people on a case-by-case basis if someone has an engine fail on a track. That *****, but it's understandable. There's a ton of variability is what "tracking" the car means. For me, it's taking it to the drag strip for fun or out to MSR for some recreational driving and hopefully a driving school or two. My driving skills are novice, so I'm doubtful I even have the ability to push the car beyond tolerance. At least for now. For other more experienced drivers, that probably means something totally different - slicks, serious performance mods, much harder cornering, faster speeds and times - that could substantially increase the chances of engine failure. I wouldn't say I buy this, but DC does have the position/argument that if you spend $1800 on a roll bar, $2K-3K+ (more?) on wheels and slicks, then $1500 on an oil pan is part of the price of admission.

Thanks for sharing what you could of your experience, Keith.

 

[kverges]

Todd, all you points are valid and I can see DC's point from a business perspective. I even imagine there is a decent chance no SRT owner will suffer engine failure with a stock pan and street tires, and the outside chance of failure is a lot cheaper than putting the fancy oil pan (that may have reliabiity issues, too, due to the moving pickup) on every SRT. Every SRT owner might start clamoring for the pan, even though they have no intention of driving the car in such a way to need the pan, just because it is a "race" part. That's a pretty expensive thing for DC to have to do - millions of dollars, potentially.

I look at it from an enthusiast standpoint. I have a freakin' Miata race car with race tires and a bone stock engine with 4 qt sump that never misses a beat and a Formula Mazda race car with slicks (can pull 2.5Gs or more) and a 4 qt wet sump, which I think is stock. Neither one has oil pressure problems.

No way, no how, should the SRT have oil pressure problems, IMO. I am obviously obstinate, even pig-headed, but DC is the one that used SRT in the moniker - maybe it should be SrT or just ST. Others may just say the pan is less than wheels, tires, harnesses and roll bar (none of which I ever added to my car) so quit belly-achin' and just put it on the track prep list.

 

[Toddh]

I agree with you, Keith. I'm not trying to defend DC at all here (hence, my jesting, if somewhat cynical, comment about at least I can take my Vette, above). No offense was meant and hopefully none taken, either. I was just contemplating what reasons they have to respond to the issue the way they have, because some people believe there are at *least* 2 sides in every dispute I tend to think that there's my side and the "wrong" side!

Personally, *if* my engine nuked at MSR on my car (bone stock right now, but K&Ns + tube from JonB soon, I hope) during recreational driving, and DC claimed "abuse" because I didn't have a different oil pan and refused to honor the warranty, the engine wouldn't be the only thing melting down. My temper would be right behind it.

 

[JWALK35]

I feel that at the very least DC should provible this mod at a reasonable price for those of us who wish to track this car. $1835 !!!!! Give me a break. Who's to say the will still warranty the motor if it still blowns.

 

[kverges]

No offense taken. I have my opinion and I'm sticking with it ;-)

 

[Cobra4B]

I know you guys generally don't give a crap about Corvettes, but we have a similar problem if you get crazy with track events. It oil pan design for a ls1/ls6 in a Corvette is shallow and wide. It is baffled in the ls6, but if you're running on Hoosiers and are on a course w/ long high-speed sweepers you can run into problems. Our owners manuals specifically instruct us to overfill the sump by one quart when racing the car. There's plenty of room for it and you won't hit the oil w/ the crank. I've had no problems w/ oil prssure, but I run on street tires still. People who want extra protection go w/ an Accusump to keep the motor lubed in the event of oil moving away from the pickup.

Wouldn't this be a much cheaper option than getting a super expensive oil pan?

I agree with ya'll that if you buy a $90,000 car it should be able to handle most everything you can throw at it.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I am a fan of Overkill myself... I just finished designing the SRT-10 prototype Accusump "pre-made bolt-on" kit that I will begin offering soon, and I also plan on adding the pan as soon as I find a little extra $ in the couch cushions. Tracked or not, it is a "what if" type of problem. I would rather be safe than sorry. I do think it is pathetic for DC not to address a situation like this though... For Gods sake, rasie the price of the friggen car a couple hundred bucks and fix this REDICULOUS problem already!!! No car should be able to out-do its stock oiling system when equipped in stock form. no way, no how. Are these engineers at DC on crack? I mean come on already...

 

[EuG]

I think C5s have similar concerns with oil starvation at high sustained Gs.
Not sure if it’s as bad as for SRT-10s, but GM recommends overfilling the motor with 1 extra Qt of oil for racing and draining it when you’re done.


Maybe you guys can try this also and hopefully it will help a bit….


Edit: Doh! Didn't see Cobra's post