Optimism, Pessimism and Trolls

[bluestreak]

Up until this point? I clearly remember the Gen III getting thrashed by the C6Z. The non ACR Gen IV was neck and neck with it with far better tires (MPSC). About time you go and study up on your history bud. By the time the Viper even came out, the C4 had already been out 10 years, no real competition there. The Porsche 993 TurboS was faster 0-60, and equal 1/4 mile time with a higher top speed than the Gen 1 and Gen 2 in independent testing. The Gen 2 split into the dawn of the 996 and C5 Versions of Porsche and Corvette respectively. The Gen 2 did not dominate either the C5 generation nor the 996 Gen. The Gen III never made any waves really. Mind you Nissan was not a major player at the time as the GT-R's were not being imported and they had the gentlemans hp agreement. The Ferrari 360 came out in 99 with the Stradale after that. The RT/10/GTS was not a road course dominator at all (in street car form), and pretty much all of these cars could run with it in basic magazine accel tests (since that's your criteria for calling the Gen V a failure). Mind you there was no C5 ZR1 to contend with but I think we can all imagine what would have happened with a suspension tweaked, better tire, 100 more hp C5Z. The NSX was a good handling car, but common less than 300 hp. The Supra's were only good modded, bad handling cars without modifications. Mustangs were still ill handling pony cars with pretty weak hp.

There was no Koenigsegg, Gumpert or Lexus Supercar, Lambo did not have Superleggerra's and LP versions of it's cars (During Gen 1 and 2). And since they have, I think most all of them are faster than the NON ACR Gen IV around a track. Not to mention Ford GT, Porsche CGT, all still faster than Gen 3 and 4 (again non ACR).

The point here is not to diminish the Viper, but to give you a reality check since you seem to act like the rest of the Vipers were untouchable. The point here is to compare apples to apples. The point is that the Gen V is holding it's own amongst the elite just as well as it's predecessors. And we haven't even seen the best of the GTS/SRT yet not to mention an ACR.

Go down the list of competitors and you will see that the results are far harder to get today than they were 20 years ago.

Another Newb who does not understand or "get" the Viper heritage. If you are surprised at the level of pessimism, you just don't get it. Up to this point, me·di·oc·ri·ty and Viper were never two words mentioned in the same sentence. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Definition of MEDIOCRITY

1
a : the quality or state of being mediocre
b : moderate ability or value
2
: a mediocre person
See mediocrity defined for English-language learners »

Examples of MEDIOCRITY

We were disappointed by the mediocrity of the new Viper as compared to the old ZR1.

 

[ACRucrazy]

The point here is not to diminish the Viper, but to give you a reality check since you seem to act like the rest of the Vipers were untouchable. The point here is to compare apples to apples. The point is that the Gen V is holding it's own amongst the elite just as well as it's predecessors. And we haven't even seen the best of the GTS/SRT yet not to mention an ACR.

Go down the list of competitors and you will see that the results are far harder to get today than they were 20 years ago.

One of many great posts in this forum.

 

[ViperSmith]

Please keep in mind that there are many "Enthusiasts" that are also long time viper owners who may not have joined this VCA Fourm as early as others and/or do not want to be a part of the VCA or "clubs". I could just as easily say that Bill Pemberton's job is to sell Vipers to as many people as possible. Therefore, Bill is full of Viper Kool-Aid and his opinion is biased and does not count.

I was just curious and looked through your post history. You have not a single positive thing to say in the Gen V forum. Not one. You trashed it from the debut to now.

And curious enough, you tell new folks they "don't get what it means" to be a Viper owner, but you have put a whole 600 miles on your 2008 Gen IV - I guess if you don't drive the car, figures form magazines are pretty important.

 

[bluestreak]

You know for every model/brand, there will always be guys who own previous models and want them to stay relevant so they trash the new ones non-stop. Same thing happened with the Gen III, actually probably much much worse than this.

 

[tbi]

Blue streak I gotta disagree with you.

The gen3 came out in 03 and with a 11.7@123 mph 1/4 mile it bested the fgt in a 2004 head to head test and not till 06 was it trounced by the z06.

In 2008 the gen4 beat the z06 in straight line speed as well as the road coutse in every single review.

The acr handled the zr1.

The viper is simply put a badd MF that is never to be taken lightly. It is always on top or at a minimum toward the top.

The genv is no exception. a 1.35 at LS is already towards the top.. 0-60 in 3.2 is already towards the top

For crying out loud it just bested the zr1 from 0-100 mph by a tenth.

As far as I know the only car even remotely in price range that beats the zr1 0-100 mph is the Aventador.

The genv just started this race and has already bested 90% of its competition.

I mean what do we want? A 99k base car that does
0-60 in 2.7
0-100 in 7.0
1/4 mile in 10.7 @ 135 mph
top speed of 210 mph
Laguana Secca in 1.32.9

Give srt and the mags a lil more time. Give actual owners a lil time.

 

[tbsviper]

The viper is simply put a badd MF that is never to be taken lightly.
.

I'll drink to that...

 

[bluestreak]

I think overall we are on the same page, but for the sake of argument.

I digress even though the Ford GT in that test was 3/10th's quicker to 60 mph and trapped higher (sounds like a missed/slow shift) somehow allowing the Viper to come back.. No road course comparos at the time, but we would soon find out that the Ford GT was much faster along with the fact that it ran low 11's and trapped over 130, something the Gen III never did in testing. I know the early GT's were not as fast as the later ones, but still same time span.

That being said, the Ford GT was a BOSS. Easily could liken it's relative performance to the ZR1 today. And if we used the same criteria, the Viper has more than helds it's own in 0-60 and 1/4 mile testing. With some similar tires it will also hold it's own on the road course too. (vs ZR1)

I did not say the C6Z beat the Gen IV, but the gap was marginal considering the PS2 hybrid tires vs the worst tires ever put on a car with supercar performance. There was no ********** there. Road Course times were mostly neck and neck.

Blue streak I gotta disagree with you.

The gen3 came out in 03 and with a 11.7@123 mph 1/4 mile it bested the fgt in a 2004 head to head test and not till 06 was it trounced by the z06.

In 2008 the gen4 beat the z06 in straight line speed as well as the road coutse in every single review.

The acr handled the zr1.

The viper is simply put a badd MF that is never to be taken lightly. It is always on top or at a minimum toward the top.

The genv is no exception. a 1.35 at LS is already towards the top.. 0-60 in 3.2 is already towards the top

For crying out loud it just bested the zr1 from 0-100 mph by a tenth.

As far as I know the only car even remotely in price range that beats the zr1 0-100 mph is the Aventador.

The genv just started this race and has already bested 90% of its competition.

I mean what do we want? A 99k base car that does
0-60 in 2.7
0-100 in 7.0
1/4 mile in 10.7 @ 135 mph
top speed of 210 mph
Laguana Secca in 1.32.9

Give srt and the mags a lil more time. Give actual owners a lil time.

 

[Torquemonster]

The car is not even fully sorted let alone evolved to it's final form.

Some of the very negative comments might as well be from trolls. The GTS is not boosted and the extra engine size will never compensate for a pulley change and retune if GM want to up the game with their ZR1. Apples to apples - it is GTS vs Zo6. Nevertheless I suspect the Gen 5 will get better. That ZR1 was not a pre-production car.

The Viper will be the baddest RWD NA powered American car. Want more then add your own boost or ask SRT to do it.

 

[madninjaskillz]

I mean what do we want? A 99k base car that does
0-60 in 2.7
0-100 in 7.0
1/4 mile in 10.7 @ 135 mph
top speed of 210 mph
Laguana Secca in 1.32.9

Give srt and the mags a lil more time. Give actual owners a lil time.

that sounds about right.

 

[HOLLYWOOD1]

Please keep in mind that there are many "Enthusiasts" that are also long time viper owners who may not have joined this VCA Fourm as early as others and/or do not want to be a part of the VCA or "clubs". I could just as easily say that Bill Pemberton's job is to sell Vipers to as many people as possible. Therefore, Bill is full of Viper Kool-Aid and his opinion is biased and does not count.

I agree SSG, Bill should stick to what he does best, selling Vipers. Thats good that "other car owners" are expressing interest in the new gen but lets see who really opens up the cheque book. My bet is not as many as we are led to believe. It should also not be his concern as to he thinks is a troll or not. Whether these guys are "trolls" or not leave them as they are entitled to their opinions whether they are a enthusiast or not. Its an open forum and everyone is entitled to their opinions and I for one appreciate the diverse opinions. If I had not been played by SRT for 2 years and the product was stellar then we would not even be having this kind of discussion.

 

[HOLLYWOOD1]

First off, great to see others that are excited about this Gen V as I am. Love the enthusiasm!

I thought everyone made solid points, and would like to respond to this one:



You would be surprised how much some of us "newb's" understand and "get" the Viper heritage. I don't think there's a single Viper guy that isn't disappointed by the Laguna Seca defeat by the ZR1. But there are plenty of current Viper owners and newbies that choose to not dwell on one loss, we look at the bigger picture.

We have lost a couple of battles, but not the war.

Mediocrity? Really? Let's look at the big picture. Here's how I would rate the Viper, this doesn't sum up to mediocrity. My opinion only, but supported by the majority of the automotive press:

Acceleration - world class
Styling - world class
Interior - world class
"Toys", as Jalopnik calls them - world class
Handling - world class
Braking - very good, not world class YET
Tires - very good, not world class YET

Now here's what I've learned, reading posts by some of the more knowledgeable in this forum. I submit that the game is not over. It may be as simple as this - tweak these three things and the Viper may be able to beat the ZR1 at Laguna Seca:

Tires
Brake pads
Aero, perhaps even the carbon fiber aero package that SRT will offer in February

Those are easy knobs for SRT to turn! Didn't you notice that GM has been improving the Corvette year after year, why wouldn't you give SRT the benefit of the doubt that they will do the same?

And if that's not enough, I'm sure SRT has a few tricks that up their sleeve when they introduce the Gen V ACR. And I'm sure they're stinging from the loss to the old ZR1 at Seca, and are highly motivated to make the Viper kick ass on the track.

Keep the faith!

All I can say to this is one word.....delusional....we plain got our a$$ handed to us and while we are all hoping that a ACR will be around the corner.....I say keep waiting and hoping as to my knowledge is not even close to confirmed any time soon. Like I said in a previous post that you may have missed. take this 2 second "gap" for a 2.3 mile course and extrapolate these numbers to the 7.3 mile Ring and guess what we will really have our a$$ handed to us in the form of probably over a 6 second "gap". take these numbers to the bank as this will surely happen. My advise to SRT is stay the hell away from the Ring. The tire excuse just does not work as if they thought that sport cups would have worked then these tire would have been on the car.

 

[1badacr]

Up until this point? I clearly remember the Gen III getting thrashed by the C6Z. The non ACR Gen IV was neck and neck with it with far better tires (MPSC). About time you go and study up on your history bud. By the time the Viper even came out, the C4 had already been out 10 years, no real competition there. The Porsche 993 TurboS was faster 0-60, and equal 1/4 mile time with a higher top speed than the Gen 1 and Gen 2 in independent testing. The Gen 2 split into the dawn of the 996 and C5 Versions of Porsche and Corvette respectively. The Gen 2 did not dominate either the C5 generation nor the 996 Gen. The Gen III never made any waves really. Mind you Nissan was not a major player at the time as the GT-R's were not being imported and they had the gentlemans hp agreement. The Ferrari 360 came out in 99 with the Stradale after that. The RT/10/GTS was not a road course dominator at all (in street car form), and pretty much all of these cars could run with it in basic magazine accel tests (since that's your criteria for calling the Gen V a failure). Mind you there was no C5 ZR1 to contend with but I think we can all imagine what would have happened with a suspension tweaked, better tire, 100 more hp C5Z. The NSX was a good handling car, but common less than 300 hp. The Supra's were only good modded, bad handling cars without modifications. Mustangs were still ill handling pony cars with pretty weak hp.

There was no Koenigsegg, Gumpert or Lexus Supercar, Lambo did not have Superleggerra's and LP versions of it's cars (During Gen 1 and 2). And since they have, I think most all of them are faster than the NON ACR Gen IV around a track. Not to mention Ford GT, Porsche CGT, all still faster than Gen 3 and 4 (again non ACR).

The point here is not to diminish the Viper, but to give you a reality check since you seem to act like the rest of the Vipers were untouchable. The point here is to compare apples to apples. The point is that the Gen V is holding it's own amongst the elite just as well as it's predecessors. And we haven't even seen the best of the GTS/SRT yet not to mention an ACR.

Go down the list of competitors and you will see that the results are far harder to get today than they were 20 years ago.

I agree with most of your post, but being a viper owner, I can see why some people are PO'd, your post confuses me
As I've owned multiple C5's and a C6Z, the C5 Z was still easily beat by any gen 2, the C5 coupe weren't even close.

My C6 Z was defiantly quicker than the gen2/3 vipers, but not by much, gen 4 viper was neck and neck with the ZR1
Not the Z06, you say you are not trying to diminish the viper but do, making me think you don't know much about
The viper. (Please correct me of I'm wrong)

Also apples to apples should be SRT vipers best vs corvettes best, as you said this is srt's 1st car,
Not its best, the lighter base model was said to be the track car(until the ACR) yet SRT still hasn't released numbers.
Adding a gumpert, is not apples to apples to any of these cars, and sounds allot like what a corvette
Owner would say at the corvette forum, again I'm not calling you out, as you have good points about the
The gen 5 that I agree with, but being a viper and vette owner your post confuses me, are you a
Corvette owner, new to the viper?

 

[FrankBarba]

Hey...The new Stryker Badge is Bad A$$ though.

 

[bigmack339]

If you want a car that can beat a ZR1, then the 2010 ACR is for you.
If you want a car that has a world class interior with great performance, then the GEN V is for you.

There is a Viper for everyone.

Quit confusing the two please.

 

[Goehner]

I can't wait to see one on the street with my supercharged Challenger, I am gonna light it up.

 

[bluestreak]

I agree with most of your post, but being a viper owner, I can see why some people are PO'd, your post confuses me
As I've owned multiple C5's and a C6Z, the C5 Z was still easily beat by any gen 2, the C5 coupe weren't even close.

My C6 Z was defiantly quicker than the gen2/3 vipers, but not by much, gen 4 viper was neck and neck with the ZR1
Not the Z06, you say you are not trying to diminish the viper but do, making me think you don't know much about
The viper. (Please correct me of I'm wrong)

Also apples to apples should be SRT vipers best vs corvettes best, as you said this is srt's 1st car,
Not its best, the lighter base model was said to be the track car(until the ACR) yet SRT still hasn't released numbers.
Adding a gumpert, is not apples to apples to any of these cars, and sounds allot like what a corvette
Owner would say at the corvette forum, again I'm not calling you out, as you have good points about the
The gen 5 that I agree with, but being a viper and vette owner your post confuses me, are you a
Corvette owner, new to the viper?

Let me clarify as I tried to cram a lot of info into as short a post as possible.

Yes, the Gen 2 comfortably beat the C5Z, but the C5Z was not a world class performer like the C6Z started off as, and has been agree? The Gen 2 was an 11.7, 11.8 @ 119 ish or so car while the C5Z was a 12.1 or so car at 117 except for when GM took one to the track and got an 11.8, but that's not really independent testing. In the real world though, we saw the cars were pretty close. In the C5 Generation, GM stopped at the Z06, so the Gen 2/3 didn't have to face a ZR1 level opponent from the same shores (the ultimate benchmark for the Viper).

Remember the fastest real world times (guys like Ranger and Wanted) were pretty nip and tuck. I think they did actually end up at the track for a competition but it's been so long I can't remember who won, or if the track competition was between the C5Z and Gen 2 or C6Z and Gen 4. But those names were at/near the top of the time sheets for both. However when the Gen IV vs C6Z came about you had guys like Jamie Furman and the other guy in the Vette (can't remember his name) added to the mix and still the best times were VERY close. The Gen IV was significantly stronger than the Z06 in high speed pulls, but their 1/4 mile times as tested by the mag (don't forget what criteria we are using 0-60 & 1/4 mile as tested by magazines) was still very close.

My point about the other cars like Gumpert etc. is that you didn't have the same number nor same performance bar when the Gen 1 & 2 were around. The Gen 1 and 2 had far fewer and far less potent supercars to contend with in assessing it's performance vs the rest of the world. Because at the end of the day, that matters too.

I have owned a C5R 427 Twin Turbo C5 Coupe, then had a deposit on a Gen 2 GTS that I backed out of due to advise from this forum on the dealers rep, looked at a few more but ended up a few months later stumbling into a 996 TT. Converted it to track car and have had it since (2006). Have also owned BMW M5. In essence, I like everything (except the GTR) and will have another Corvette, or Viper in the not so distant future. I honestly have no bias. But have extensive history as an enthusiast of pretty much everything.

 

[SSGViper]

Wow, ok so according to "bluestreak" the Viper was never a real contender and was mediocre? What was it? You are backtracking now. Make up your mind. You state you have extensive history as an enthusiast but appear to not know much about the Viper history.

 

[ViperJeff]

I'm an obsessively optimist and without a doubt the Viper is my crack of choice.

 

[doctorbob]

This post was started by Venom V to move on to the positive aspects of the Generation V. Yet, we have the same people on this post making the same complaints. This is a open forum but is it necessary to make the same negative observations on every thread? You have had a 1,000 opportunities to post negative comments on the last two threads on magazine reviews. No Viper is perfect for all owners. I pointed out some of the problems the Generation 1 Viper had, until 2000....the Generation 2 did not have ABS. The hood and styling was different on the Generation 3 Viper. The Generation 4 had a few changes and then we got the ACR. We were lucky we got a Generation 4 Viper. How many of you were in Detroit for VOI 10. We were looking at the end of the Viper. We were lucky Fiat bought Chrysler. The company is becoming profitable and have paid back the vast majority of the loan from the government. The Generation V prototype/mockup came into being because of the beauty of the car and Ralph and the SRT teams hard work. It was painted Sergio's favorite color(if you don't know that is how Stryker Red came about). The Generation 3 Viper evolved into the Generation 4. The ACR had been in the works for awhile. The current generation is not out of the box yet. Give it a chance.

On a different subject......there has been several comments about being not offended. I am offended some of you are making negative comments about Bill Pemberton. He is a Midwestern guy....honest and straight forward. Woodhouse would not be the premiere dealer in Vipers if it were not for quality people like him. He has a passion for the cars. He is objective about the pluses and minuses of every generation. If you ask him a question, you will have an email response within 24 hours. I have known him for years and am fortunate to call him a friend. His reputation stands by itself.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

In addition to what doctorbob said, I am completely puzzled why all the negative folks keep at it with the negative talk instead of feeding SRT with constructive criticism

Example: I drove the Pebble Beach Launch Edition during VOI 12 and I noticed that the seats were not tilting downward far enough (short legs) for me to obtain the ideal seating position, the pedal movement and seat forward/backward movement were good though. This was mentioned to the engineer right next to me in the passenger seat in a polite and observative way and he said he would see what they could do.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

And yes I am also offended about the comments towards Bill Pemberton because they are grossly misplaced as Bob already explained. He and 2 members of the Woodhouse team are currently helping me with a question that is not asked every day and are accomodating to the max in getting me what I want/need. That is called SERVICE despite me not being the owner of a Pentastar product, something that the closest-to-me dealership here in The Netherlands can learn from.

 

[InjectTheVenom]

One final ranting point, if a dealership is able to join a manufacturer in a joint venture that is both custom as well as stock, eventually producing a limited run of Gen 4 ACR convertables WITH factory support (yes the same Woodhouse team that Bill Pemberton is a member of)... do I need to finish the conclusion or..?

 

[SnakeBitten]

I don't know where somebody is getting the idea that the 993 turbo was faster than the GTS straight line or twisties. I had mags with the Viper topping out at 192mph vs the Porsches 186mph. Also the 1/4 was also won by the Viper. It was turning 119mph to the Porsches 116mph etc. Both were in the low 12's with the Viper edging it out in ET. It also beat the Porsche in the road course. The only 993 Porsche that ever came close to beating the GTS was the Turbo S. they were pretty even if memory serves.

The C5z lost all around as well to the GTS. I remember a test where the Viper had mismatched tires and still dominated the likes of Lotus Esprit, Ferrari, Porsche on the same day. It won 7 out of 10 tests that day IIRC. Anybody that was a car but between 96-2000 knows how dominant the GTS was. Even on car forums killing a bone stock GTS in your modded Supra, Vette, Honda etc was like winning the lotto.

Anybody that says the Viper GTS wasn't dominant isn't a student of real hisssstory. (I know, that was lame lol)

 

[Jack B]

I do not include all enthusiasts in the folowing, this pertains to just a select few. This is getting really bad, one corvette owner/lover (enthusiast) makes a viper slam and another corvette owner/lover agrrees and thinks his post qualifies the first inane post. What is also irrating, this forum is for postive or constructive criticism and that is not what this forum has turned into. Get off your band box and and go back to the corvette forum, the pic's of the new vette are posted, that in itself should be a huge job for a select group of enthusiasts on this board to defend.

 

[bluestreak]

Dude, can you read? There was nothing mediocre about the cars the Viper has beaten or run with. I was only pointing out to people like you who have no real information yet continue to harp on how untouchable the previous generations were that the Gen V as much of a contender as before, the bar has just been raised.

Lets see you post something other than rants on the failure of the Gen V. And this time include some actual numbers so you at least look like you know what you are talking about, even though we all known otherwise.

Wow, ok so according to "bluestreak" the Viper was never a real contender and was mediocre? What was it? You are backtracking now. Make up your mind. You state you have extensive history as an enthusiast but appear to not know much about the Viper history.

Go back and look. I clearly said Turbo S. They came out pretty much the same time as the Gen 2.

I don't know where somebody is getting the idea that the 993 turbo was faster than the GTS straight line or twisties. I had mags with the Viper topping out at 192mph vs the Porsches 186mph. Also the 1/4 was also won by the Viper. It was turning 119mph to the Porsches 116mph etc. Both were in the low 12's with the Viper edging it out in ET. It also beat the Porsche in the road course. The only 993 Porsche that ever came close to beating the GTS was the Turbo S. they were pretty even if memory serves.

The C5z lost all around as well to the GTS. I remember a test where the Viper had mismatched tires and still dominated the likes of Lotus Esprit, Ferrari, Porsche on the same day. It won 7 out of 10 tests that day IIRC. Anybody that was a car but between 96-2000 knows how dominant the GTS was. Even on car forums killing a bone stock GTS in your modded Supra, Vette, Honda etc was like winning the lotto.

Anybody that says the Viper GTS wasn't dominant isn't a student of real hisssstory. (I know, that was lame lol)

 

[ROCKET62]

Maybe one of the trolls can chime in and tell me why you would waste the time and energy on a Viper web site if you have no intention on owning one? I just don't get it - time is the most valuable thing you have and to waste the time and energy makes no sense to me - get a life.

I did "lurk" on this website for about 2 years prior to buying one - but that was only because I knew that I was going to own Viper at some point in the future.

As far as the "negative comments" - I for one was disappointed with the results - and believe it is ok to express those concerns. Brake fade - what???? - never ever heard about brake fade with the Gen 3/4/acr - what the heck did they change? Bad seats? That's all they talked about was how good the interior was - and now we learn that those were pre-production seats - no where did I read a disclaimer by CD or MT that they were testing pre-production mules. Tires - anyone that remembers history will remember how all of the corvette fans were complaining about the PSC's on the ACR when the vette had the run craps on - fast forward to today - did SRT not learn their lesson with the tires? A track pack should have had track tires like the PSC and not settled for the mediocrity of the Pirelli's even if forced on them by Fiat. Bilstein shocks - does any other sports car use that brand? Why use an unproven shock when you have such good history with the KW's and Motons?

First impressions are lasting impressions and I for one would not have put the pre-production Vipers out there as outfitted knowing that they were going to be up against a formidable competitor in the ZR1 in that setting if I was SRT.

 

[ferraritoviper]

First impressions are lasting impressions and I for one would not have put the pre-production Vipers out there as outfitted knowing that they were going to be up against a formidable competitor in the ZR1 in that setting if I was SRT.

+1. Interesting and constructive post. Tks!

 

[FrankBarba]

Now i know why this Viper was such a secret. None of the Regional Presidents could talk about the Viper, Sworn Oath of Secret. SRT would not talk,
I guess if you went to VOI (you saw a rendition) or you were one of the important Enthusiasts that had the connections you were in the Know more than average viper owner.
Did i miss the the questionnaire that was sent out to us to discuss what we would like to see in the Viper ? If it was sent & i did not respond please disregard this post.

I'm ready for a new Spec Viper Racer....

 

[plumcrazy]

On a different subject......there has been several comments about being not offended. I am offended some of you are making negative comments about Bill Pemberton. He is a Midwestern guy....honest and straight forward.

I might not agree with this bill pemberton character on viper pricing at times but anyone who has ever bought a viper from him would never bash him personally. he is the real deal when it comes to vipers and a heck of a guy. bashing him personally is just stupid.

 

[SSGViper]

I might not agree with this bill pemberton character on viper pricing at times but anyone who has ever bought a viper from him would never bash him personally. he is the real deal when it comes to vipers and a heck of a guy. bashing him personally is just stupid.

Perhaps you should re-read the post regarding Bill and Bill's post regarding "enthusiasts". Nobody was "bashing" Bill personally. Anyone who knows anything about Vipers knows that Woodhouse is a stand up dealer.