Paddle Shift
- Thread starter BigSaleen
- Start date
Bwright
Enthusiast
Your point necessarily assumes, incorrectly, that a missed shift is the only, important or even significant thing that can slow you down or make you fast in a race. On the contrary, consistently choosing the right line and timing your braking distances alone represent nearly infinite key and significant variables since each and every input over the course of a race is different depending on where the other cars are relative to you at any given point on any given lap. A “mediocre” driver, to use your words, will not suddenly smarten up and figure out the split second timing, newly optimal line, ever changing steering, braking and throttle timing needed when there is someone else in the way of a sequence of corners ahead and a competitor is breathing down his neck at high speed (more on that later). The paddle shifter will not tell him when to go to power depending on his exit point from the turn and how much force he should put on the pedal to not spin the car. It also won’t tell him when to downshift so he does not go off into the sand trap because he wholly misjudged his corner entry speed and angle.
Again, the incredibly overlooked factor in all of this is the driver. It does not matter how much technology you throw at a problem if the operator is incompetent or mediocre. Pick a mediocre driver and give him a Viper SRT-10 with a sequential shifter and pit him against Tommy Archer in a manual 997 GT3 short 4 cylinders, nearly 100hp and even more torque. Give the mediocre Viper driver a 10-second head start over 12 laps and then have Archer pick the track. Then take bets on how long before Archer laps him.
Part of winning a race is indeed making fewer mistakes but it does not come remotely close to ALL of what it takes to consistently win. Winning a race comes from a combination of talent, training and experience. You can make no mistakes and still lose a race even when the technological playing field is not only level but in your favor. Witness the epic struggle of Michael Schumacher against Fernando Alonso in the now legendary race at San Marino in April of 2005. Alonso had the lead with the great German hovering literally a foot away as the cars raced through turn after turn for 10 agonizing laps at speeds so extraordinary they seemed almost like a Matrix-style special effect. Shifts were coming so fast they sounded like automatic weapons fire. Unlike the Tommy Archer hypothetical where you have a mediocre driver with a supposed technology edge against a better driver with a manual here you had two cars, same systems, talented drivers and no mistakes. In fact, the systems on the more expensive Ferrari were better and, as such, the Ferrari was significantly faster which should have allowed it to compensate for any mistake Schumacher made. But the better driver that day, Alonso, won. Carefully read Alonso’s comments to the BBC afterward and take note of what it was about what Alonso told himself and did to win against the combination of a car and highly talented driver that Alonso readily admitted was faster than him: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4479009.stm
Something that requires more "talent" does not mean that it is better or the way to go. Remember, one day we were fighting with sticks and stones. Today we have nuclear weapons. Takes a lot more "talent" to work a slingshot but which one do you want to go to war with? Why stop at the "talent" required to drive a manual shifter? Let’s go back 50 years to drum brakes, bias ply tires, live axles and the most archaic suspension you can think of all of which are inherently inferior today but required more "talent" to operate when put on a car. Is a driver who chooses to stick with those technologies justified in berating you as an impure techno-wonder because relative to his car your Viper with modern tires, brakes and suspension is current with the things it NOW takes to win? Time and technology move on but the mission - making and executing skillfully timed decisions in the face of ever changing variables in order to win - does not change. And the stresses, pressure and dangers on and to drivers today are far greater now that technology has dramatically expanded the performance envelope of the modern performance cars. It only gets worse every time technology moves forward.
Technology in and of itself changes virtually nothing. Look around you at all the left lane bandit, forgotten blinker on, cell-phone yakking, no track time and/or no car control losers you have to share the public roads with. If you think there is any technology that will make them remotely "level" on your playing field then I have to give you credit for you are the very definition of an optimist.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
You're terrific at comparing apples to oranges. Archer vs. some mediocre driver? Auto tech vs. war tech? LOL Are you serious?
Forgive me for ignoring the fun vs. life-or-death analogy. I'll focus on the more pertinent subject.
Drums, tires, axles certainly DO NOT require any more talent than disc, slicks or IS. The car is inherently faster because of them but the difference in skill required is from the resulting speed increase. That being the case, disc, slicks and IS require more talent obviously. A case where more tech requires more, not less talent.
How about Archer vs. someone not quite as fast as him? Give the slower guy the advantage of paddles and see how much closer the race is.
You admit yourself it comes down to driver skill. And paddle shifters eliminate one more skill requirement.
Dumb question here but read the following and tell me how the Viper should proceed in this scenario.
It is 2018 and the manual transmission as we know it no longer exists. All transmissions are either layshaft transmissions with dual clutches (aka DSG style) or direct transmission driven by both the engine and an electric motor. The dual clutch transmissions are all electronically operated, either manually with a paddle shift variant or automatically by computer control. The direct transmission is purely computer controlled.
Should the Viper continue to use aged technology that is no longer offered elsewhere in the market place (aka Nascar) or evolve to the emerging technologies at an appropriate time?
This type of question could have been posed 40 years ago for the Cobra, or even the Corvette. Do you think they would have turned their nose up at radial tires, electronic fuel injection (note cars of that era required skill to "tune" the engine), disk brakes, advanced suspensions, ABS, etc)? Or would they have embraced the technologies when they became required to compete in the worlds arena?
My expectation is that they would have used every available weapon in their arsenal in order to maintain a competitive advantage. The main driver is to be the fastest, not the most technical nor the least technical. The primary factor is speed.
That should be our focus. My $0.02
It is 2018 and the manual transmission as we know it no longer exists. All transmissions are either layshaft transmissions with dual clutches (aka DSG style) or direct transmission driven by both the engine and an electric motor. The dual clutch transmissions are all electronically operated, either manually with a paddle shift variant or automatically by computer control. The direct transmission is purely computer controlled.
Should the Viper continue to use aged technology that is no longer offered elsewhere in the market place (aka Nascar) or evolve to the emerging technologies at an appropriate time?
This type of question could have been posed 40 years ago for the Cobra, or even the Corvette. Do you think they would have turned their nose up at radial tires, electronic fuel injection (note cars of that era required skill to "tune" the engine), disk brakes, advanced suspensions, ABS, etc)? Or would they have embraced the technologies when they became required to compete in the worlds arena?
My expectation is that they would have used every available weapon in their arsenal in order to maintain a competitive advantage. The main driver is to be the fastest, not the most technical nor the least technical. The primary factor is speed.
That should be our focus. My $0.02
VENOMAHOLIC
Enthusiast
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It's an excellent comparison to bring up the original Cobra that was in part an inspiration for the Viper concept car. Those cars have 427ci engines, 4 speed stick, and cook the driver. They ,with fresh rubber, still outperform lots of todays cars. They are primitive and raw but today there would be a very long line if free drives in one were offered. The Cobra has to be the most copied car in the aftermarket today regardless of competition.
The fact that it is technologically simple have allowed specimens to exceed 200k miles. Today the only hard part of maintaining one is to get OEM parts for it at a reasonable price due to collector value. I have yet to see a paddle shift in one and it would be a sacrelidge to do so.
The Viper can have success in the distant future like the Cobra if it keeps the same basic formula it started with.
Hmm. I work for a multi-billion dollar manufacturing company. I would bet with a fair bit more knowledge of the automotive development and manufacturing process than most here. And of all the things stated above only the paddle shifter stands out as impractical (I think I even stated that above) - note not impossible, just impractical.
And just because a race car has it or some guy did it in his back yard means nothing in terms of ability or cost on a mass production and governmental compliance basis.
And just because a race car has it or some guy did it in his back yard means nothing in terms of ability or cost on a mass production and governmental compliance basis.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
That's what I've been trying to tell some of these guys.
Warfang
Enthusiast
It's the thread that won't die. We'll all just have to agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Oh yeah, and see you next month, when the next nanny-no nanny flame war starts. 
ps... the purists are RIGHT!
ps... the purists are RIGHT!
Bwright
Enthusiast
Great question, well put. The obvious answer in that situation would be that failure is not an option. The only catch with your question is that it is extremely unlikely that the Viper will make it to 2018. Its development budget is about $100mm and it consistently loses money. Sales of the current generation have declined by double-digit percentages every year since its introduction. As such and as can readily be seen on Ebay, the car has no pricing power. As Toyota demonstrates every day, a halo sports car is not needed to generate profits which, at last count, exceeded those of Ford, GM and Chrysler combined. This is a fact which is not lost on DCX.
If there is another generation of Viper and it fails to attract enough buyers to turn a steady profit then that will be all. Dodge is not in the charity business. With their market share shrinking literally by the day under ferocious assault from every direction, they can no longer afford to routinely throw $100mm down the functional equivalent of a financial sinkhole to stroke the egos of less than 1,800 buyers a year in a 17 million unit car market where aggressive foreign competition has not stopped at forcing Chrysler to seek shelter in the arms of a stronger company but now appears bent on killing them outright.
Good luck.
Viperfreak2
Enthusiast
Your Toyota analogy might work today, but a new Supra is on the way with a rumored 500 hp. The reason the previous Supra didn't work was due to styling and relatively high price. As it was on it's way out of the market, turbo-tuners realized the engine could handle obscene levels of power and the demand from the Fast and Furious kidz for the used cars went sky high. Therefore, the HALO effect is higher now than when the car was sold in the US! We even talk about them here.
Toyota has an entire branch of 'halo' cars called Lexus, none of which is a 'halo' for sports cars. Rumor has it, that too will end soon.....
I'll bet it has a paddle shifter option.
Toyota has an entire branch of 'halo' cars called Lexus, none of which is a 'halo' for sports cars. Rumor has it, that too will end soon.....
I'll bet it has a paddle shifter option.
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