Paxton vs PD Blower - my Z06 vs my Viper
- Thread starter Nine Ball
- Start date
RECOIL
Enthusiast
The former owner changed my redline to 6200. Guess that helps to a degree. I am learning alot by reading all of this. Thanks guys.
viperpat
Viper Owner
I have to say the LS7 is a very impressive engine, it’s amazing that it can rev to 7000 I am surprised they didn't put the ls7 in the zr1 but I understand why they didn’t. but I still think the v10 is the motor to have and my 8.4 with variable timing and awesome race heads is amazing motor i think it has more potential than the LS7 when it comes to big HP.
FastMatt
Enthusiast
Once the FI kits come out for the 08-up Vipers it's going to be cool. At this point the problem is no matter what you do to them your right around 600 whp. My Heads/cam Gen 2 has 612 rwhp so it's hard for me to make the jump.
But once there is DIY blower out for the gen 4 it's going to be game on. Hell it should make 900+ crank HP at 8psi (800ish wheel). Thats a hell of a bolt on car! Add headers/exhaust, 10psi O MY!
I'm waiting....
viperpat
Viper Owner
I know, I cant wait my friends 750 hp tech art porsche will be sucking my dust, Im sick of lookng at his wing LOL 800 HP to the rear wheels is the perfect number to take care of business!!!
Here is the info on RPM drop on shifts.
Tom
Here is a website which will quickly show you what you need.
http://www.f-body.org/gears/
Rear end 3.07
1st: 2.66
2nd: 1.78
3rd: 1.30
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.78
6th: .050
If you shift at 6000, it drops to 4000 from 1st to 2nd, 4350 from 2nd to 3rd, 4600 from 3rd to 4th, 4700 from 4th to 5th.
Tom
Here is a website which will quickly show you what you need.
http://www.f-body.org/gears/
Rear end 3.07
1st: 2.66
2nd: 1.78
3rd: 1.30
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.78
6th: .050
If you shift at 6000, it drops to 4000 from 1st to 2nd, 4350 from 2nd to 3rd, 4600 from 3rd to 4th, 4700 from 4th to 5th.
ROCKET62
Has Left the Room!
I would tend to doubt that the stock internals are going to withstand 800hp. A normally aspirated Gen 4 motor with well over 700 is within reach as demonstrated by the Challenger V10 drag pack.
Viper Grenade
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2010
- Posts
- 325
- Reaction score
- 0
If your going to pull the trans to replace 5th...might as do it right and use this gear set up.
This setup will allow you to use 1st to start with. It also allows you to in effect have a "higher" redline as you can hold each gear for a higher mph. With most drops going from 6000rpm to about 4500rpm...you have a nice tight ratio to stay in that small power band.
Rear 2.73
1st = 2.66 (66mph) (50mph = 4500rpm)
2nd = 1.78 (99mph) (66mph = 4000rpm)
3rd = 1.35 (130mph) (99mph = 4550rpm)
4th = 1.00 (176mph) (130mph = 4450rpm)
5th = 0.84 (209mph) (176mph = 5050rpm)
6th = 0.56 (314mph) (70mph = 1350mph...great mpg
)
This setup will allow you to use 1st to start with. It also allows you to in effect have a "higher" redline as you can hold each gear for a higher mph. With most drops going from 6000rpm to about 4500rpm...you have a nice tight ratio to stay in that small power band.
Rear 2.73
1st = 2.66 (66mph) (50mph = 4500rpm)
2nd = 1.78 (99mph) (66mph = 4000rpm)
3rd = 1.35 (130mph) (99mph = 4550rpm)
4th = 1.00 (176mph) (130mph = 4450rpm)
5th = 0.84 (209mph) (176mph = 5050rpm)
6th = 0.56 (314mph) (70mph = 1350mph...great mpg
)FastMatt
Enthusiast
700 at the crank is easy on a gen 4 as demonstrated by the 600-620 RWHP gen 4 vipers out there. But there is a big difference between 700 crank HP and 700 WHEEL HP.
And dear god I would sure hope a 8.4L V10 that makes 600 hp stock can suport 900hp crank (~800 rwhp)with mods like a blower on stock internals. I have made 800 AWHP (over 900 crank) out of a stock 3.0L V6 in one of my stealths, cast pistons and from a motor that only made 300hp stock. I also have made 700 rwhp out of a Stock bottom end 6.2L LS3 with heads/cam/ blower on pump gas in a 2010 camaro And thats double the power at the wheels the car made stock. It's taken a daily beating for a yr and still runs like a top.
If the gen 4 Viper motor cant withstand a 50% power increase on the stock block Dodge needs to go back to the drawing board because every other modern motor can, and can with ease.
mnc2886
Enthusiast
Expecting that kind of increase is unfair and unrealistic. You have to remember the total surface area subjected to pressure is much higher on the viper than the lsx and stealth engines. Bigger bore, and more cylinders with similar pressure means a significantly higher amount of total stress.
Unfortunetly the nature of the gen 4 beaste isnt only limited by the tuning...the compression of that car just isnt meant for boost...
youve got three options...
-610 rwhp with every bolt on
-stock engine plus 4psi of boost for 650 rwhp
-all the bolt ons and 4 psi of boost for 710 rwhp
or you could buy a gen 3 and change the hood and add motons and a paxton for 710 rwhp and have a car as powerful that looks the same and handles better with maybey 10k more miles and still have a few k left in your pocket over buying a stock 2008..
2008 is only the right choice if 550 rwhp stock or 600 rwhp with boltons and still haveing warranty means somthing to you
youve got three options...
-610 rwhp with every bolt on
-stock engine plus 4psi of boost for 650 rwhp
-all the bolt ons and 4 psi of boost for 710 rwhp
or you could buy a gen 3 and change the hood and add motons and a paxton for 710 rwhp and have a car as powerful that looks the same and handles better with maybey 10k more miles and still have a few k left in your pocket over buying a stock 2008..
2008 is only the right choice if 550 rwhp stock or 600 rwhp with boltons and still haveing warranty means somthing to you
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
If your going to pull the trans to replace 5th...might as do it right and use this gear set up.
This setup will allow you to use 1st to start with. It also allows you to in effect have a "higher" redline as you can hold each gear for a higher mph. With most drops going from 6000rpm to about 4500rpm...you have a nice tight ratio to stay in that small power band.
Rear 2.73
1st = 2.66 (66mph) (50mph = 4500rpm)
2nd = 1.78 (99mph) (66mph = 4000rpm)
3rd = 1.35 (130mph) (99mph = 4550rpm)
4th = 1.00 (176mph) (130mph = 4450rpm)
5th = 0.84 (209mph) (176mph = 5050rpm)
6th = 0.56 (314mph) (70mph = 1350mph...great mpg
Nice plan there. Do you know if all those gear sets exist, including the 2.73 rear gear?
2008+ Viper 8.4L Engine (rated 600 hp)
Bore x stroke 4.055 x 3.96
Compression 10.2:1
Redline 6,250 rpm
2006+ LS7 7.0L Engine (rated 505 hp)
Bore x stroke 4.125 x 4.00
Compression 11.0:1
Redline 7,000 rpm
2008+ LS3 6.2L Engine (rated 436 hp)
Bore x stroke 4.0065 x 3.622
Compression 10.7:1
Redline 6,600 rpm
There are hundreds of LS3/LS7 cars out there pushing 650-700 rwhp (740-800 crank hp) on stock internals, using mostly Prochargers or turbos. As you can see, the LS7 has a higher CR, larger bore and stroke than the Viper engine does. I'd expect the factory 2008+ V10 to be at least 750-800 rwhp capable, if the pistons/rods could hold up. That is the main question.
Last edited:
mnc2886
Enthusiast
That is what I am getting at. Even though the bore on an ls7 may be bigger, the total stress on a viper is higher. What I meant by my comments is that expecting a linear result as far as sturdyness is not realistic. Just because you can double the HP of a 300 HP engine without changing internals doesn't mean the same should happen with a 500 HP engine. The guy's statement was that the SRT team should go back to the drawing board if their engine can't handle 900 hp with stock internals. I took the liberty to do some quick rod load calcs.
A stock gen 4 viper engine with the specs you stated will see a total of 5,384 lbs of rod load per cylinder at 195 psig on the compression stroke. That times 10 cylinders is 53,847 lbs or rod load for the engine. Now, the LS7 with a bigger bore and higher compression ratio will see 5,612 lbs of rod load per cylinder at 200 psig on the compression stroke. That times 8 cylinders is a total rod load of 44,902 lbs. That is a 8,945 lb difference in total stress. Add a supercharger with 8 lbs of boost, the total rod load in a gen IV Viper jumps to 69,447 lbs as opposed to a total of 57,702 lbs in a LS7. So I guess to sum everything up, I was trying to say that you can't expect linear stress tolerance based on HP.
Viper Grenade
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2010
- Posts
- 325
- Reaction score
- 0
Nice plan there. Do you know if all those gear sets exist, including the 2.73 rear gear?
QUOTE]
You bet. Common T56 gear ratios. You might want to go a little higher on 1st but it would be super tall and a PITA in a parking lotThat would help with the rpm drop between 1st and 2nd. But...you could start a 50-150 roll-on from 1st.
FastMatt
Enthusiast
Try Triple the HP of said 300hp V6
And I'm not asking for Triple, or even Dbl, but dear god 50% more, thats not asking for much. Hell I added nearly 54% RWHP to my 2001 "cream puff" Gen 2 viper by simply doing striker heads/cam/header/exhaust/tune (399 rwhp to 612 rwhp)
Did you really just say that a V10 8.4L motor making 900 hp at 8psi of boost there is MORE stress on the motor then a 3.0L V6 making 900 hp at 30psi of boost?
Man we better call the Top fuel guys and tell them to go down to 1.0L single cil.motors. They will be under less stress at 8000 hp then there 500 cid V8's are! think of all the money they will save on motors!
You dont need to be a rocket scientist to know that making 4.92 HP pre Cid on 6 rods, 6 pistons, 4 main caps is harder on parts then making 1.75 hp per Cid on 10 rods, 10 pistons, 6 main caps .
Sorry NineBall I think be have got your thread way off Topic..... End Hijack
Last edited:
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
Not a hijack, it is a good discussion. Extra pistons don't mean too much to me, because as you said the block is longer and there is also more bearing caps to take that load.
mnc2886
Enthusiast
First of all, I never said anything about a 900 hp 6 cylinder being under less stress than a 900 hp 10 cylinder. The fact that you claimed I said so is quite silly since you are quoting me in my response. I specifically said that expecting tolerance for 50% more hp, no matter what the starting point, is ridiculous. Remember, you said the srt team needs to go back to the drawing board if a gen IV engine can't handle 900 hp in stock form. So again, so there is no confusion, you can't expect a engine to tolerate a 50% increase in HP just because a dodge stealth did. I think it is pretty fair to assume that just about everyone on the board will agree, there is not one gen IV viper that can handle 900 hp with stock internals. I really don't want this to turn into a ******** internet argument/bashing, but since you made such heated comments while claiming I wrote something that I did not, which is on the same maturity level, I feel it is going that way. I hope you don't take it to that point.
Tony,
I apologize if my input has caused disruption of topic.
FastMatt,
To your point though, I do hope that one day a Viper comes stock with forged internals similar to a Ford GT. However, I'd rather it not and stay under $150K, which I believe is the direction the Viper would go if it took that route. Remember, they have to add all the electronic nannies for the Gen V. The R&D from that, plus the actual equipment I fear will put the Gen V Viper at a starting point of $120K.
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
I did one of my Sr papers in engineering school on piston materials. The reason that factories use hypereutectic pistons is for a few reasons.
Hypereutectic cast pistons are cheaper and easier to mass-produce.
They also thermally expand less than forged pistons, allowing closer tolerances for the final diameter machining. This provides a better seal, and less burnt oil during the warm-up cycle.
Most of the time, the hypereutectic pistons weigh less than forged pistons.
If you were planning on building an all-motor performance engine, the hypereutectic pistons are actually a very good choice.
Hypereutectic cast pistons are cheaper and easier to mass-produce.
They also thermally expand less than forged pistons, allowing closer tolerances for the final diameter machining. This provides a better seal, and less burnt oil during the warm-up cycle.
Most of the time, the hypereutectic pistons weigh less than forged pistons.
If you were planning on building an all-motor performance engine, the hypereutectic pistons are actually a very good choice.
If your going to pull the trans to replace 5th...might as do it right and use this gear set up.
This setup will allow you to use 1st to start with. It also allows you to in effect have a "higher" redline as you can hold each gear for a higher mph. With most drops going from 6000rpm to about 4500rpm...you have a nice tight ratio to stay in that small power band.
Rear 2.73
1st = 2.66 (66mph) (50mph = 4500rpm)
2nd = 1.78 (99mph) (66mph = 4000rpm)
3rd = 1.35 (130mph) (99mph = 4550rpm)
4th = 1.00 (176mph) (130mph = 4450rpm)
5th = 0.84 (209mph) (176mph = 5050rpm)
6th = 0.56 (314mph) (70mph = 1350mph...great mpg
I mentioned this in my previous post. A taller rear. I'd be interested after test of a similar gear. Someone mentioned they have one in development.
Wonder if they would be in negative to this. You would lose some low end grunt but would make up for on the top in and staying in gear longer. 90s in second is nice.
Not for a stock viper but those over 700.
FastMatt
Enthusiast
FastMatt
Enthusiast
I'm prity sure Stock viper rods have already supported over 900hp on quite a few cars.
And you really think by simply going from cast pistons to Forged would add $50,000 to the price of the car.
This point is moot anyway, Power does not brake pistons, detonation does. I have been able to make 150HP PER cylinder on cast pistions not have one brake as long as you stay away from detonation. All forged pistons do is give you a margin of error when it comes to detonation. But only a small one when you are talking big power cylinder, detonate it hard and your piston may not brake but you will flatten your rod bearings.
I have built 1000's of FI motors over the last 14 yrs in busness, your not talking to a a internet keyboard warrior here. I hold the world record for the fastest Stealth/3000gt at 8.7@168mph (Uncorrected at 3600ft altitude!) all from a 3.5L V6 and did it with a stick shift.
I have installed countless FI kits on stock motors, I have still yet to see ANY modern production motor that cant support a 50% power increase and last for years and years as long as the car is tuned right. Not one.
fastMatt your looking at this wrong..
I have little doubt that the gen3 engine could handle 800 rwhp on the stock internals via boost..I have little doubt that the gen 4 could handle 800 rwhp on the stock internals via boost...
But these arent engines that you can blow and pick up used for 2-5K..The 300 HP v6's your talking about that have 600 HP under boost are likely mass produced with hundreds if not more people pushing the limits ect and posting results..
srt10 vipers?????? Your not gonna find many gen3 owners willing to go over 700 rwhp on their 25K engines...We are all told 700 rwhp and under is safe on gen 3's with stock intrnals..So being the price of the engine 99% of us stay at that level..With that said I remember on guy here a year ago who was pushing 760 rwhp on stock internals..people gave him hell and said it was gonna blow..Well as far as I know he never posted anything negative about it..
These cars are so rare and engines are so expensive that we just dont have any real ground breakers who are pushing the stock capabilities like you would a 35K v6 car..And because of the high entry price of a srt10 at 38K being the cheapest examples up to 110K being the most expensive examples..Well most who want bigger power can spend the 5K to build the engine to safely handle 1000 plus rwhp and would never risk blowing the engine just for 750-800 rwhp when they can safely push 700 rwhp..
As for the gen4's...Their are no pioneers at this point..I beleave that a bolt on car at 600 rwhp probally could hit 800 rwhp with 5-6 pounds of boost..But who's gonna be the guini pig..Who's gonna be the first to risk there engine on stock internals no less..If you can afford a 60-110K viper then you would probally build the engine..
Thats the differance between us and the mass produced v6's and v8's of the world...rarity is really only kool for bragging rights and possibly resale...But strength is in numbers..
Do a search here and in 2004 you will see that the viper record for a head and cammed srt10 was only 530 rwhp..I think it was Utah viper..or..I forget but the guy who ran the first 11.7 at 123 in a stocker at the track..
fast forward to 2011 and we have guys with just bolt ons at 500-520 rwhp and the head and cammed guys are up to 650 rwhp...
As time goes forward we may see 800 rwhp stock internal gen3's and gen4's..Especially with the less harsh on the engine roeTT setups for the gen3's...But your talking about mayebe 12000 srt10's made in the WORLD from 2003-2010...With such low numbers it is just unfare to compare us to cars with hundreds of thousands of owners and 2-5K replaceable engines
I have little doubt that the gen3 engine could handle 800 rwhp on the stock internals via boost..I have little doubt that the gen 4 could handle 800 rwhp on the stock internals via boost...
But these arent engines that you can blow and pick up used for 2-5K..The 300 HP v6's your talking about that have 600 HP under boost are likely mass produced with hundreds if not more people pushing the limits ect and posting results..
srt10 vipers?????? Your not gonna find many gen3 owners willing to go over 700 rwhp on their 25K engines...We are all told 700 rwhp and under is safe on gen 3's with stock intrnals..So being the price of the engine 99% of us stay at that level..With that said I remember on guy here a year ago who was pushing 760 rwhp on stock internals..people gave him hell and said it was gonna blow..Well as far as I know he never posted anything negative about it..
These cars are so rare and engines are so expensive that we just dont have any real ground breakers who are pushing the stock capabilities like you would a 35K v6 car..And because of the high entry price of a srt10 at 38K being the cheapest examples up to 110K being the most expensive examples..Well most who want bigger power can spend the 5K to build the engine to safely handle 1000 plus rwhp and would never risk blowing the engine just for 750-800 rwhp when they can safely push 700 rwhp..
As for the gen4's...Their are no pioneers at this point..I beleave that a bolt on car at 600 rwhp probally could hit 800 rwhp with 5-6 pounds of boost..But who's gonna be the guini pig..Who's gonna be the first to risk there engine on stock internals no less..If you can afford a 60-110K viper then you would probally build the engine..
Thats the differance between us and the mass produced v6's and v8's of the world...rarity is really only kool for bragging rights and possibly resale...But strength is in numbers..
Do a search here and in 2004 you will see that the viper record for a head and cammed srt10 was only 530 rwhp..I think it was Utah viper..or..I forget but the guy who ran the first 11.7 at 123 in a stocker at the track..
fast forward to 2011 and we have guys with just bolt ons at 500-520 rwhp and the head and cammed guys are up to 650 rwhp...
As time goes forward we may see 800 rwhp stock internal gen3's and gen4's..Especially with the less harsh on the engine roeTT setups for the gen3's...But your talking about mayebe 12000 srt10's made in the WORLD from 2003-2010...With such low numbers it is just unfare to compare us to cars with hundreds of thousands of owners and 2-5K replaceable engines
Nine Ball
Enthusiast
I don't know about that Twister. If you can afford a Viper, I'd say you could also likely afford an engine rebuild, should it blow. I'm not scared of blowing an SRT-10 engine, they aren't that rare here. We have a plethora of SRT-10 Ram trucks to bone pick from. Maybe they are rare over in Hawaii, but not really here in Texas. You would only need a good block,heads, crank. The rest would be upgraded anyways.
..Yes you are quite right nineball...A used 2003 srt10 with 25K miles is a 40-45K car all day here in Hawaii..In texas the same car would be 34-39K..
If your not afraid then I say go for it!!!! Push the limits..get 750 rwhp on stock internals and race your z06 again (but this time for the love of all things precious start from 70 mph in second gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I swear to you starting at 50 mph in second gear in a srt10 is committing suicide for roll races....However my buddies z06 loves 2nd gear 50 mph rolls but not so much 2nd gear 70 mph rolls..
70 mph in second gear in a srt10 is INSANE..50 mph is just lugging
Push the limits and see if 800 rwhp is really survivable on stock internals
If your not afraid then I say go for it!!!! Push the limits..get 750 rwhp on stock internals and race your z06 again (but this time for the love of all things precious start from 70 mph in second gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I swear to you starting at 50 mph in second gear in a srt10 is committing suicide for roll races....However my buddies z06 loves 2nd gear 50 mph rolls but not so much 2nd gear 70 mph rolls..
70 mph in second gear in a srt10 is INSANE..50 mph is just lugging
Push the limits and see if 800 rwhp is really survivable on stock internals
the engine can handle a lot of HP but with a boosted car things happen faster. any detonation at higher power levels and the stock gen3 engines are going to be toast. thats why people go forged. they take a lot more abuse. if the tune is dead nuts on, no problem....one hiccup and look out at 800rwhp
tony, youre right, the cast pistons were for tolerances.
tony, youre right, the cast pistons were for tolerances.
George Murray
Enthusiast
Wouldn't the 2006 Viper be able to put 600 HP to the wheels with a set of heads and aftermarket exhaust? No blower hassles?
I've seen very impressive HP numbers from blown LS6 vette engines. I would think longevity would be an issue, though. depending on how the bottom end is built. I see lots of these LS6's (N/A engines) blow up on the track (road course) when relatively minor internal mods are done (cam, heads) and the bottom end and oiling are ignored.
Anyone here know why the LS6's blow up so much? (track duty - not street)
I'm considering adding a C5Z to my stable as a street ******.
I've seen very impressive HP numbers from blown LS6 vette engines. I would think longevity would be an issue, though. depending on how the bottom end is built. I see lots of these LS6's (N/A engines) blow up on the track (road course) when relatively minor internal mods are done (cam, heads) and the bottom end and oiling are ignored.
Anyone here know why the LS6's blow up so much? (track duty - not street)
I'm considering adding a C5Z to my stable as a street ******.
Can't Stop
Enthusiast
Once you start getting speeds into triple digits, it is time to start looking at aerodynamics. The initial jump that the Z-06 gets is probably due to torque & weight. But at speed, a sleeker (more aerodynamic) vehicle will gain on another vehicle (even with the weight penalty). Do you know any one in your area with a wind tunnel??
Can't Stop
Enthusiast
One other item comes to mind. I had a Mouse & a Rat that each dyno'd around 400 hp. They were in the same car (same race wt) at various times. The Mouse was always 0.5 to 0.75 sec. quicker in the 1/4 mile. A lighter reciprocating assembly revs quicker. Could some of the difference be a V-8 vs a V-10's heavier internals?
Similar threads
