Pissed at Lingenfelter

[03CobraAV8R]

What made you decide to pull the head and take a look? Was there a good reason, or was it because you were just curious and wanted to see if they put the right components in the engine properly?

If curiosity was the reason for the inspection, then it seems that you did not completely trust them. I have to ask why you would have them build your engine if you didn't fully trust their workmanship?

What you did does not make sense.

So you found what appears to be a used camshaft in your new engine - a rather interesting find, but look at the expense of that find. You no longer have any warranty from Lingenfelter, and you're out the $ that the other shop charged to R&R the head. So now what?

If a shop has done something wrong in the build - then it will usually surface at the dyno or as you put the miles on it. Only after you have experienced symptoms that indicate something may not be mechanically sound, would it be wise to do an inspection of the engine.

Randomly deciding to pop the engine open to take a look out of sheer curiosity is not a wise thing to do. That investigation should only be done by the company that built the engine, that way they are the only ones that have had any contact with it, and cannot blame anyone else for mistakes made during the build process or damage incurred during the inspection.

If that cam was bad and was wearing away at the block, it would have shown up in an oil analysis - and then you could have notified Lingenfelter about the issue and they would have investigated it at no cost to you.

 

[aries]

What made you decide to pull the head and take a look? Was there a good reason, or was it because you were just curious and wanted to see if they put the right components in the engine properly?

If curiosity was the reason for the inspection, then it seems that you did not completely trust them. I have to ask why you would have them build your engine if you didn't fully trust their workmanship?

What you did does not make sense.

So you found what appears to be a used camshaft in your new engine - a rather interesting find, but look at the expense of that find. You no longer have any warranty from Lingenfelter, and you're out the $ that the other shop charged to R&R the head. So now what?
If a shop has done something wrong in the build - then it will usually surface at the dyno or as you put the miles on it. Only after you have experienced symptoms that indicate something may not be mechanically sound, would it be wise to do an inspection of the engine.

Randomly deciding to pop the engine open to take a look out of sheer curiosity is not a wise thing to do. That investigation should only be done by the company that built the engine, that way they are the only ones that have had any contact with it, and cannot blame anyone else for mistakes made during the build process or damage incurred during the inspection.

If that cam was bad and was wearing away at the block, it would have shown up in an oil analysis - and then you could have notified Lingenfelter about the issue and they would have investigated it at no cost to you.

In a dream world that would happen, unfortunatley we live in the real world. I'll answer this one at a time.

The reason I had the motor pulles apart is because I thought that Lingenfelter was a top notch builder with an impeckable reputation. Then I start hearing from many sources that ever since John Lingenfelter passed away their quality control went to hell. This engine is evidence of that.

Second, if I would have installed this engine and started it, regardless if it was for 30 seconds or 1000 miles, and found a problem that sourced back to the cam, all Lingenfelter would have said is "oh you installed it wrong, or you didn't hook up the oil lines correctly" something of that nature. Then I'd be out a lot more money than having it examined before hand.

How do you know that would be Lingenfelters response? Well, first their responce to the metal debris in the engine was "oh that wouldn't have done any harm". Maybe, or maybe not, the point is on your ad it said professionally cleaned, not the case here. Second, their ad said a Comp Cam, what's in it is a used, unusable, stock cam. When I called them up on the cam and sent the pics, their response was "the cam didn't look like that when it left". Can you believe that!!!!! So I guess the cam fairy took out the cam and chewed it up and put it back in while everyone was sleeping. The only other explanation is AR Fab had a stock, scored up SRT10 Truck cam laying around and are saying it came out of this engine. Problem with that is this is the second Viper they've worked so they don't exactly have a surplus of used viper parts laying around, and it was supposed to be a Comp Cam in it not stock so all evidence points to Lingenfelter screwing up.

 

[lankhoss]

In a dream world that would happen, unfortunatley we live in the real world. I'll answer this one at a time.

The reason I had the motor pulles apart is because I thought that Lingenfelter was a top notch builder with an impeckable reputation. Then I start hearing from many sources that ever since John Lingenfelter passed away their quality control went to hell. This engine is evidence of that.

Second, if I would have installed this engine and started it, regardless if it was for 30 seconds or 1000 miles, and found a problem that sourced back to the cam, all Lingenfelter would have said is "oh you installed it wrong, or you didn't hook up the oil lines correctly" something of that nature. Then I'd be out a lot more money than having it examined before hand.

How do you know that would be Lingenfelters response? Well, first their responce to the metal debris in the engine was "oh that wouldn't have done any harm". Maybe, or maybe not, the point is on your ad it said professionally cleaned, not the case here. Second, their ad said a Comp Cam, what's in it is a used, unusable, stock cam. When I called them up on the cam and sent the pics, their response was "the cam didn't look like that when it left". Can you believe that!!!!! So I guess the cam fairy took out the cam and chewed it up and put it back in while everyone was sleeping. The only other explanation is AR Fab had a stock, scored up SRT10 Truck cam laying around and are saying it came out of this engine. Problem with that is this is the second Viper they've worked so they don't exactly have a surplus of used viper parts laying around, and it was supposed to be a Comp Cam in it not stock so all evidence points to Lingenfelter screwing up.

So if you have heard so many bad stories about Lingenfelter, WHY did you choose to buy THEIR motor? It just doesn't make sense.

The way things work is the SECOND you crack open a product you've bought, you have voided the warranty. At this point, there is so little that you can prove.

I'm sure the company you are working with is honest and they are telling you the truth. But the reality is (coming back to this real world you are talking about), you have bought a product and then took it to a COMPETITOR to "check out." Logically, the store working on your motor right now has MOTIVATION to create or exagerrate problems. That doesn't mean that they ARE, but from a legal standpoint you have really made a bad decision by having someone tear this thing apart just because you were curious.

Does this company that's working on it now not build engines?

 

[aries]

So if you have heard so many bad stories about Lingenfelter, WHY did you choose to buy THEIR motor? It just doesn't make sense.

The way things work is the SECOND you crack open a product you've bought, you have voided the warranty. At this point, there is so little that you can prove.

I'm sure the company you are working with is honest and they are telling you the truth. But the reality is (coming back to this real world you are talking about), you have bought a product and then took it to a COMPETITOR to "check out." Logically, the store working on your motor right now has MOTIVATION to create or exagerrate problems. That doesn't mean that they ARE, but from a legal standpoint you have really made a bad decision by having someone tear this thing apart just because you were curious.

Does this company that's working on it now not build engines?

I only heard of the "problems" with lingenfelter after I purchased it. Refer to my post when I purchased the engine:
http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-srt10-coupe-discussions/621058-my-new-ligenfelter-motor.html. A member even said that I should have a 2nd person look at it and my response was I got it from Lingenfelter and did he think I should stil take it apart and he responded that he felt Lingenfelter was reputable.

AS far as AR Fab, they only tore the motor down at my request. So they were not pushing to have torn down so they "could find something". Again if you read the description of the engine in that post it says "All internal parts are de-burred, hand washed and inspected Pistons, pins and connecting rods are pin fit to specification Crankshafts are computer balanced to within .5 grams or less, oil holes chamfered, bearing surfaces micro polished", "Competition Cams custom roller camshaft for turbo application", if Lingenfelter did indeed do all they claimed, there would have been no debris and not a used, unuseable, STOCK cam in the engine.

Now as far as AR Fab building engines. They definatley do. They have all the machining equipment in house to handle every aspect of a high performance build. The reason I purchased the Lingenfelter engine was because the for all the parts and services done to the engine I would have spent more money trying to rebuild my blown motor and not gotten as many "trick" parts.

 

[lankhoss]

Well I hope you can get this problem all sorted out, I really do. But in the future, I think having someone look at something is fine. But I would not advise you having someone else take the engine apart.

I fear you may have put yourself in a bad position legally, as Lingenfelter may not be liable for anything at this point. There's really no proof (proof being the word here, not saying AR Fab has done anything) that any of this was inside the engine when it left LPE, including the cam

 

[plumcrazy]

i doubt lingenfleter is responsible for anything regardless if he took it apart now or after it blew up. if lingenfelter was a reputable, honest engine builder, they would do right by aries either way.

apart now or later, those used parts that were NOT supposed to be in that engine are still completely wrong and not what he paid for.

 

[vipah]

i doubt lingenfleter is responsible for anything regardless if he took it apart now or after it blew up. if lingenfelter was a reputable, honest engine builder, they would do right by aries either way.

apart now or later, those used parts that were NOT supposed to be in that engine are still completely wrong and not what he paid for.

Why should they take a box of parts back and spend more to rebuild an engine that they feel went out the door and would perform to their expectations and warranty.

Perhaps they will give back the difference from what was paid and what it will cost to rebuild it again. Which may be near nothing.

The very simple fact is that it should never have been torn down. If it was suspected that it was not what was purchased he should have contacted them and tried to get his money back in exchange for the product (untouched). Now that it is torn down I don't think there is a leg to stand on.

 

[ViperTony]

Why should they take a box of parts back and spend more to rebuild an engine that they feel went out the door and would perform to their expectations and warranty.

Perhaps they will give back the difference from what was paid and what it will cost to rebuild it again. Which may be near nothing.

The very simple fact is that it should never have been torn down. If it was suspected that it was not what was purchased he should have contacted them and tried to get his money back in exchange for the product (untouched). Now that it is torn down I don't think there is a leg to stand on.

It's his engine...he put down big $$$ for it...he owns it...he has every right to tear it down and verify he got what he paid for. He purchased on eBay from an auction by Lingenfelter. If I recall correctly, the engine was being sold as is , which automatically raises a red flag. The auction also stated the engine was custom built for a customer that was no longer interested in it. Another red flag. We're not talking about a situation whereby the OP contracted directly with Lingenfelter to build him this engine and he was privy to every part of the build process and saw first-hand what went into the engine.

Let's also assume for a moment that both the OP and his tuner are not stupid enough to try and scam Lingenfelter by coming on to the VCA site and spreading slander, accusations, falsehoods to try and get a free cam or put one over on Lingenfelter. For what purpose? I'd certainly have someone like Chuck Tator tear down my engine to verify I got what I paid for especially from an eBay auction. Cheap insurance.

The bottom line here is Lingenfelter is not stepping up to the plate to even consider examining what happened to this engine. Their actions, as described by the OP, so far seems to indicate a cover up. Otherwise, any reputable engine builder would be on-site combing through the engine to dispute or verify any of the findings mentioned. Lingenfelter is completely washing their hands of it and that wreaks cover up.

Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if the orginal customer of this engine returned it to Lingenfelter for the same issues. I applaud the OP for confronting Lingenfelter as opposed to laying down and being violated over it which it seems some of you think is the right course of action.

 

[vipah]

It's his engine...he put down big $$$ for it...he owns it...he has every right to tear it down and verify he got what he paid for. He purchased on eBay from an auction by Lingenfelter. If I recall correctly, the engine was being sold as is , which automatically raises a red flag. The auction also stated the engine was custom built for a customer that was no longer interested in it. Another red flag. We're not talking about a situation whereby the OP contracted directly with Lingenfelter to build him this engine and he was privy to every part of the build process and saw first-hand what went into the engine.

Let's also assume for a moment that both the OP and his tuner are not stupid enough to try and scam Lingenfelter by coming on to the VCA site and spreading slander, accusations, falsehoods to try and get a free cam or put one over on Lingenfelter. For what purpose? I'd certainly have someone like Chuck Tator tear down my engine to verify I got what I paid for especially from an eBay auction. Cheap insurance.

The bottom line here is Lingenfelter is not stepping up to the plate to even consider examining what happened to this engine. Their actions, as described by the OP, so far seems to indicate a cover up. Otherwise, any reputable engine builder would be on-site combing through the engine to dispute or verify any of the findings mentioned. Lingenfelter is completely washing their hands of it and that wreaks cover up.

Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if the orginal customer of this engine returned it to Lingenfelter for the same issues. I applaud the OP for confronting Lingenfelter as opposed to laying down and being violated over it which it seems some of you think is the right course of action.

Sorry, but you are simply wrong. I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't try to do something, i think we are simply saying that he would have been much better off for not tearing it apart.

If there were all these 'red flags' and it was sold 'as is' then he should never have bought it.

But buying something, tearing it apart, and expecting a full refund is just silly. If he was willing to spend all the money for the engine, a complete tear down, and rebuild, then why didn't he just have AR custom build one to start with?

 

[Broch]

I'm not shocked by this at all. I'm sure it tempting to throw used parts in during a build under the assumption no one will ever see it or notice it. Especially an engine that is getting blown because if it blows up later you can blame the customer or the usual line of "thats life on the edge".

Bottom line is still I guess trust but verify with everything.

 

[Warfang]

lesson is... careful of what you buy from eBay

 

[Tabs1]

Any updates. I hope a video was taken during the tear down, at least lots of pics. Fraud ***** to defend when its documented. If used parts were used and the engine is clearely not what was represented and sold with knowledge that it wasnt built as spec'ed then it is a shame to lose another rep shop.

 

[TexasPettey]

A freind of mine had a great experience with Lingenfelter on his C5 Z06. He bought a crate motor from them and installed it himself. After the install, it had too much crank case pressure and was blowing the dipstick. They shipped the car back to their shop and did a complete tear down. The end aswer was 'ring flutter' at high RPM part throttle. I can't say if that was the actual problem, but I can say that Lingenfelter took the car and ate the cost of a complete motor pull and rebuild. On a C5, that's a very labor intensive operation.

 

[ViperTony]

Sorry, but you are simply wrong. I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't try to do something, i think we are simply saying that he would have been much better off for not tearing it apart.

If there were all these 'red flags' and it was sold 'as is' then he should never have bought it.

But buying something, tearing it apart, and expecting a full refund is just silly. If he was willing to spend all the money for the engine, a complete tear down, and rebuild, then why didn't he just have AR custom build one to start with?

LOL, not wrong at all. If he didn't tear it down before the install he wouldn't have found the issues until after the fact when the engine blows. At that point, he would be hard-pressed to prove a bad tune didn't cause the issues outside of the stock cam. Why go through all that when the issues could be resolved while the engine is out of the car? Makes no sense to me. His tuner seemed to have followed a logical course checking out the engine after the first issue was found. Given how Lingenfelter responded so far, I seriously doubt they would've resolved anything if the engine blew. Installing it as is and hoping for the best is completely asinine.

I'd never buy a used or newly built engine on eBay unless I had the opportunity/provision to verify the build sheet. Then again, why screw around with eBay when I can deal with a reputable Viper engine builder directly? I saw that auction, but it raised to many red flags for me. I'd rather spend that money at DLM, Underground Racing, Tator, etc, for example, and let them build a monster engine for me.

It's easy for any of us to sit back and point out the OP's mistakes. But rationalizing how Lingenfelter is in the right here is beyond me. If anything is wrong here, that would be it. Instead, we may want to help the OP make some headway with Lingenfelter.

 

[vipah]

LOL, not wrong at all. If he didn't tear it down before the install he wouldn't have found the issues until after the fact when the engine blows. At that point, he would be hard-pressed to prove a bad tune didn't cause the issues outside of the stock cam. Why go through all that when the issues could be resolved while the engine is out of the car? Makes no sense to me. His tuner seemed to have followed a logical course checking out the engine after the first issue was found. Given how Lingenfelter responded so far, I seriously doubt they would've resolved anything if the engine blew. Installing it as is and hoping for the best is completely asinine.

you are funny, and still very wrong.

Do you think Dodge would take back your viper if you brought it from the dealer to another dealer and dismantled the whole thing?

 

[ViperTony]

you are funny, and still very wrong.

Do you think Dodge would take back your viper if you brought it from the dealer to another dealer and dismantled the whole thing?

Now you're a funny guy. Why would I want to dismantle my Viper?

 

[vipah]

Now you're a funny guy. Why would I want to dismantle my Viper?

Good point. Why would you want to dismantel an engine that you just bought and void the warranty?

 

[ViperTony]

Good point. Why would you want to dismantel an engine that you just bought and void the warranty?

Your scenario makes no sense. We're talking about an aftermarket engine...not a new Viper delivery from Dodge. Do you happen to work for Lingenfelter? LOL.

 

[plumcrazy]

Tony, thank you for making the point for me. (and you're much nicer than i am)

 

[vipah]

Your scenario makes no sense. We're talking about an aftermarket engine...not a new Viper delivery from Dodge. Do you happen to work for Lingenfelter? LOL.

Voiding a warranty is voiding a warranty, period.

Would you expect to take delivery of a car from a tuner, take it all apart, and still have it covered under warranty.

What if nothing was found during the tear down and the engine failed after 100 miles? Would you exepct AR to cover it or Lingenfelter?

And why the heck would you buy something from someone you don't trust???

 

[vipah]

Tony, thank you for making the point for me. (and you're much nicer than i am)

Did you completely tear down your DLM engine when you recieved it?

 

[ViperTony]

Voiding a warranty is voiding a warranty, period.

OK, I get it. You're still hung up on the warranty, if any. But the OP has moved beyond Warranty talk and is into fraud at this point. We still don't know if the warranty was voided. Even if it was, it doesn't negate what was found and doesn't stop the OP from suing Lingenfelter. I mean, what could possibly happen:

OP: "Yes, your honor, it's true I'm being fraudulent as I scored the journals, poured in shavings and installed a stock cam so I can waste my money, your time, my time 'cause i have nothing better to do." LOL.

Would you expect to take delivery of a car from a tuner, take it all apart, and still have it covered under warranty.

It depends. If I contracted with the tuner directly to build my engine, i.e. not through eBay, then no I wouldn't take it apart. I'd only deal with a select 2-3 Viper builders/sponsors. If I did get a wild hair and decided to purchase an engine like this through eBay then YES I would have someone like Chuck Tator go through it but in reality I would simply contract with Tator to build my engine to begin with.

What if nothing was found during the tear down and the engine failed after 100 miles? Would you exepct AR to cover it or Lingenfelter?

Since it was completely torn down, cleaned, assembled by A.R. and A.R. gave the engine a complete bill of health then A.R. has to deal with it assuming their work did cause the engine to blow up, i.e. a bad tune by third party.

And why the heck would you buy something from someone you don't trust???

Me personally, I wouldn't.

 

[vipah]

Voiding a warranty is voiding a warranty, period.

OK, I get it. You're still hung up on the warranty, if any. But the OP has moved beyond Warranty talk and is into fraud at this point. We still don't know if the warranty was voided. Even if it was, it doesn't negate what was found and doesn't stop the OP from suing Lingenfelter. I mean, what could possibly happen:

OP: "Yes, your honor, it's true I'm being fraudulent as I scored the journals, poured in shavings and installed a stock cam so I can waste my money, your time, my time 'cause i have nothing better to do." LOL.

Remember, he has to prove the negligence, or fraud. Unless there is a video tape from start to finish the opposition can just take the position that it wasn't the cam that was installed. It must have gotten mixed up with some other parts at the third party shop that took it all apart. Or they damaged it somehow. They will probably say it was buyer's remorse and he was just looking for a way to get money back.

Would you expect to take delivery of a car from a tuner, take it all apart, and still have it covered under warranty.

It depends. If I contracted with the tuner directly to build my engine, i.e. not through eBay, then no I wouldn't take it apart. I'd only deal with a select 2-3 Viper builders/sponsors. If I did get a wild hair and decided to purchase an engine like this through eBay then YES I would have someone like Chuck Tator go through it but in reality I would simply contract with Tator to build my engine to begin with.

So you would save money on Ebay, then spend it to tear it down and rebuild it? This continues to make no sense. The 'normal' thing to do would be to spend that amount on contracting someone to do it as you said.

What if nothing was found during the tear down and the engine failed after 100 miles? Would you exepct AR to cover it or Lingenfelter?

Since it was completely torn down, cleaned, assembled by A.R. and A.R. gave the engine a complete bill of health then A.R. has to deal with it assuming their work did cause the engine to blow up, i.e. a bad tune by third party.

And why the heck would you buy something from someone you don't trust???

Me personally, I wouldn't.

Exactly, why would anyone buy something from someone they don't trust?

 

[plumcrazy]

Did you completely tear down your DLM engine when you recieved it?

of course i didnt. but i guarantee if i did and found what aries did, doug would have flown up to NJ personally and taken care of it immediately if not sooner. thats what an honest, reputable tuner does.

if i didn't find those issues, obviously no warranty would be understandable but i bet DLM would work with me....

 

[aries]

LOL, not wrong at all. If he didn't tear it down before the install he wouldn't have found the issues until after the fact when the engine blows. At that point, he would be hard-pressed to prove a bad tune didn't cause the issues outside of the stock cam. Why go through all that when the issues could be resolved while the engine is out of the car? Makes no sense to me. His tuner seemed to have followed a logical course checking out the engine after the first issue was found. Given how Lingenfelter responded so far, I seriously doubt they would've resolved anything if the engine blew. Installing it as is and hoping for the best is completely asinine.

I'd never buy a used or newly built engine on eBay unless I had the opportunity/provision to verify the build sheet. Then again, why screw around with eBay when I can deal with a reputable Viper engine builder directly? I saw that auction, but it raised to many red flags for me. I'd rather spend that money at DLM, Underground Racing, Tator, etc, for example, and let them build a monster engine for me.

It's easy for any of us to sit back and point out the OP's mistakes. But rationalizing how Lingenfelter is in the right here is beyond me. If anything is wrong here, that would be it. Instead, we may want to help the OP make some headway with Lingenfelter.

Exactly!!!! Now I'll answer Vipar question...again.. on why buy something from someone I don't trust. Again, I did trust them when I was purchasing the engine. Then I started hearing people saying that there quality control went down hill. So I decided to have it looked at.

Now of course I am responsible for paying parts and labor for the tear down if there was nothing found, but now that there were incorrect parts and the fact that the engine would have had to come apart in a couple thousand miles after the used cam ruined the block, I think Lingenfelter should pay the tear down.

 

[ViperTony]

Exactly, why would anyone buy something from someone they don't trust?

In this case, he did buy from someone he trusted...Lingenfelter, a well-known tuner. The distrust occurred when he found shavings after removing the heads. But, I don't see how distrust absolves someone from commit fraud...nor is it an excuse to stiff customers.

P.S...read my responses a little better, I think you got confused on my answer to the eBay scenario or you're caught in a circular loop.

Aries: Any updates on your progress/lack thereof with Lingenfelter?

 

[aries]

Forgot to update this:

I spoke to Tim Dyer at Lingenfelter and he'as agreed to replace the cam only because it's not a comp cam that was listed in the ad. He's still sticking to the story that the cam didn't look like that when it left his shop. Now I asked for parts and labor money for the tear down and he said 'no way". I asked him, If I hadn't torn the engine apart we would have never discovered this cam and most likley it would have ruined the block and I would have had to tear the motor apart anyway. He says again, the cam didn't look that way when it left. Ok, wouldn't the engine have to come apart to replace the wrong cam listed? Can I get some money back for the labor to a least the cam? Nope, no chance. Unbelievable, they admit to putting the wrong cam in the engine, but say that the wrong cam they put in there did not look like that when it left. Again, this engine was never started!!!!!

 

[lankhoss]

I completely agree with Vipah. In fact, you have taken the words right out of my mouth.

Aries, I am not bringing this up to argue with you....I am bringing this up, so that something like this doesn't happen in the future. I think you are lucky that Lingenfelter is doing replacing the cam. Why? Because you had some OTHER SHOP tear it apart and just claim all the stuff they found.

One thing that NOBODY here is even questioning is the 2nd shop. Everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon of "Yeah, you can't trust anyone nowadays! Shops are crooked!" However everyone just IMMEDIATELY believes 100% of what a SHOP says. And unlike Lingenfelter, it's a shop no one has heard of! I don't understand these types of discussions, where you claim shops are untrustworthy....because shop B says that shop A did bad work.

Now, put yourself in Lingenfelter's shoes. You build an engine, a very very simple thing for you since you've been doing it for decades with probably one of the best track records in the world. It gets sold. Guy calls you up and says "Hey, these guys I know took that engine apart and here's what they found!" You then receive all these pictures of stuff that YOU NEVER SAW in your shop. How would you react to that? There's no video or proof that the debris in the engine or the cam that is in these pictures are actually how they looked immediately as they came out of the engine.

Again, I'm not taking sides here. I think it's very well possible that Lingenfelter messed up here. In fact, I personally believe 100% of what the 2nd shop found. However, the method that the OP took to come to this conclusion was NOT a good one. You don't understand that once a 2ND PARTY puts their hands on this thing, all bets are off. That's just how things work. Especially in this field....because every single shop is in direct competition with each other.

And to change Vipah's scenario a little bit to make it a little closer to this situation....let's say you bought your new Viper from a local Dodge dealership. Then you took it to a CHEVY dealership, and had them take the engine apart. Now, if these mechanics found all sorts of problems inside the motor, do you think Dodge would honor the warranty?

 

[aries]

I completely agree with Vipah. In fact, you have taken the words right out of my mouth.

Aries, I am not bringing this up to argue with you....I am bringing this up, so that something like this doesn't happen in the future. I think you are lucky that Lingenfelter is doing replacing the cam. Why? Because you had some OTHER SHOP tear it apart and just claim all the stuff they found.

One thing that NOBODY here is even questioning is the 2nd shop. Everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon of "Yeah, you can't trust anyone nowadays! Shops are crooked!" However everyone just IMMEDIATELY believes 100% of what a SHOP says. And unlike Lingenfelter, it's a shop no one has heard of! I don't understand these types of discussions, where you claim shops are untrustworthy....because shop B says that shop A did bad work.

Now, put yourself in Lingenfelter's shoes. You build an engine, a very very simple thing for you since you've been doing it for decades with probably one of the best track records in the world. It gets sold. Guy calls you up and says "Hey, these guys I know took that engine apart and here's what they found!" You then receive all these pictures of stuff that YOU NEVER SAW in your shop. How would you react to that? There's no video or proof that the debris in the engine or the cam that is in these pictures are actually how they looked immediately as they came out of the engine.

Again, I'm not taking sides here. I think it's very well possible that Lingenfelter messed up here. In fact, I personally believe 100% of what the 2nd shop found. However, the method that the OP took to come to this conclusion was NOT a good one. You don't understand that once a 2ND PARTY puts their hands on this thing, all bets are off. That's just how things work. Especially in this field....because every single shop is in direct competition with each other.

And to change Vipah's scenario a little bit to make it a little closer to this situation....let's say you bought your new Viper from a local Dodge dealership. Then you took it to a CHEVY dealership, and had them take the engine apart. Now, if these mechanics found all sorts of problems inside the motor, do you think Dodge would honor the warranty?

AR Fab would have had to have a spare, stock SRT10 TRUCK cam laying around in the remote chance that it could be used in a fraudulent way. What are the chances of that? About a million to one. Next, I was the one who requested the tear down, not AR Fab. It's not like they were pushing me to tear it down so they could "find something". AR has been spot-on since this whole thing started, and meeting them in person and seeing their shop and all the equipment they have has earned my trust in them.

Now Lingenfelter has already admitted that they put the wrong cam in the motor, there's no questioning that. I just want some labor costs at least to cover what a camshaft costs to install.

 

[KenricGTS]

Vipah, You are totally off base man. He should check to make sure he got what he payed for. I had a Vette that I had a 383 long rod stroker motor, and when I sold it he pulled the pan. And what did he find? Exactly what I said was in it! A billet crank Oliver H beam rods ARP rod bolts and all the goodies. I will NEVER EVER buy not even a sticker from Lingenfelter. They have lost a ton of creditablity and business not taking care of their customor. I bet this WILL cost them tens of thousands of dollars in new buisness. And all this blame game is bull****! He did this not us and the cam was not like this when it left. Come on we all know they are full of sh**! Tell everyone you know do not do business with people who dont take care of their customors!!