Project: Bullet-proof V-10

[Joseph Dell]

My only point is that engine building isn't about throwing parts into a block and hoping for the best. Engine building is about the combination. Some critical factors that should be considered in any engine build (and Greg has hit a couple of them) PTW clearance, heat considerations, compression ratio, quench, rod/stroke ratio, head gasket thickness, etc... And since the topic of this thread was Bullet-proof V-10, my thinking was that you were trying to build something both strong and proper.

NA, Roe, SC, TT... I like them all! But it is all about the combination. There is nothing more painful than watching people throw good money after bad.

What is your target compression ratio for the build?

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Depends. CP likes to run some of their pistons too tight IMO. Depending on who you talk to over there....you may hear as tight as .0035". You can call back and someone else there may tell you .0055". Had it happen. A forged piston on a power-adder engine will usually gall when set up at .0035". .005" is as tight as I would run one. .006" is safer.

MS2253HX is the Clevite main bearing you want. It has .001" extra clearance over stock. The stock engines are very tight IMO on main bearing clearance. The stock clearance rod bearings are fine.

Mains : Clevite MS2253HX

Rods: H series -http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLE-CB481HN/

P series- Clevite CB481P Clevite 77 High-Performance Bearings

The HN series bearing above is narrowed, and has a little less eccentricity than the P bearing. The P bearing is a little wider. They're both good. Take your pic.

very good, thank you Greg
This is the type of info I want in this thread. Its not just specific to my build, but will help others if they come across this info.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Hey BF,
when you get the motor out, send the intake off the Roe S/C to Greg Good to modify for better flow. It will make a difference in power

I am seriously considering it.
But it may have to wait until next time

 

[BOTTLEFED]

My only point is that engine building isn't about throwing parts into a block and hoping for the best.

I don't see anything in your post about building the motor at all

What I don't quite follow: you are going to build up a motor but keep the ROE on there? The ROE w/ a 10lb pulley has been shown to greatly increase intake air temps due to it overspinning the blower. If you are going to build out the bottom end, why not build something that has a shot of exceeding ~650rwhp?

Not trying to start a roe vs. world war, but the ROE is the limitation on your build. If that were a paxton, you could run 850rwhp reliably w/o the bottle.

Just askin'...

What is your target compression ratio for the build?

stock, or whatever it is currently
not sure if the JM heads changed compression or not

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Just got back from the machine shop. The pistons measured .004" under 4.000" so I should be fine for coating the skirts.
The machinist also told me the pistons are slightly dished and should lower the compression a little.

I also talked to my coater and he says their skirt coating is only .0008" at max.
I'll be taking the pistons to him this weekend. I'll post pics when I get them back.

 

[Viper Specialty]

FYI, we run the CP Pistons a tad tighter than usual, and even with Skirt Coatings, you wont gall anything. The coatings are sacraficial, and will thin out as needed the first few times the engine is run. On the CP's, we usually run .004, then coat the skirts. Teardowns have shown that even at this level, the coating doesnt scuff, and doesnt even wear off completely either.

Keep in mind, if you have pistons set up for a 4.000" bore, even at the "set" clearance of .004" [Piston size 3.996], you are going to be on the larger side of our builds, as you will lose .001-.002 just cleaning up your bores.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

thanks Dan
Can you tell me what compression ratio your CP pistons usually run?
These pistons have valve reliefs and just a slight dish. Is that normal?

 

[plumcrazy]

is there a part number on them for dan to look up to be 100% sure ?

 

[Viper Specialty]

thanks Dan
Can you tell me what compression ratio your CP pistons usually run?
These pistons have valve reliefs and just a slight dish. Is that normal?

CR is always set based on the application... no "usual" here.

Our piston designs do not have reliefs, as our dishes are deeper 99% of the time than the reliefs would be to begin with. Without seeing the spec sheet, its a tough call to know anything about the pistons you have. If they have a slight dish, valve reliefs and a taller compression height to bring them to zero deck, they very well could be "stock CR" type pistons, or even raise your compression. Very tough to tell without piston and rods specs.

 

[Viper Specialty]

is there a part number on them for dan to look up to be 100% sure ?

Highly unlikely... all part numbers are internal since CP is a custom part manufacturer, and nobody really wants part numbers floating around.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

this is what is printed on the bottom
#4017DR
here is the piston

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[ViperTuner]

A few things to look at with your project that may have been brought up but were not thoroughly explained. When using the Roe SC at higher boost levels Or the use of nitrous will increase the cylinder heat above normal at the power level you seek. So what was stated above about these power adders must be taken into consideration with trying to build a reliable setup. .0006-.0007" per inch is a good guideline and maybe a touch more if you are learning how to tune the car(not sure if you know how to tune or not but regardless every single build has a learning curve). Teflon skirt coatings help reduce galling but galling is due to swelling the piston due to more heat than the Piston-wall clearance was set to, so a good ceramic top coat helps. The ring issues come from a facility without the proper equipment to produce the ring manfacturers recommended surface finishes. The finishes can only be produced by trial and error and tested with a profilometer. Hell Fire rings work better high tensile ductile iron sleeves. Most rings today need to be finished using Diamond tooling. Since you don't have the job card for the piston you don't have the compression height nor the dish volume. Also, these blocks are not very square from the factory so the deck heights are another concern. In order to properly determine compression ratio you must know all of the geometry of the block, compressed headgasket thickness and the cylinder head volume. Not what the stated component measurements are but the actual measurements themselves.




Howard

 

[ViperTuner]

Another point to consider is what does introducing water/**** into the mix bring?

Methanol is bad. (Mr. Macky off of South Park for anyone who watches)

not really, but it has it's pitfalls!! Lol

1) when it's used as a supplement fuel and fails... It's bad.
2) when your guides are not bronze and you haven't spec'd out the stem clearance... It's bad(I have not seen first hand whether or not the OEM heads are bronze or not...I always make or use new guides in most of my builds and when I get the heads there are no guides in them)
3) the oil lubrication contamination dept. needs to be watched like a hawk or...it's bad
4) racers use oils with friction modifiers that help reduce the oil contamination but lack the ability to surpress water moisture...which doesn't help either unless your willing to change the oil each use.

But! The positive side is you can run higher boost and make more power on pump gas.

E85 is fun but your limited to where you buy it and your fuel economy will really go in the toilet and you'll roughly need four Walboros and 100# injectors to play with it but those are disposable fuel pumps. It's always a bad day when one of those pumps go south on you...especially if your not datalogging fuel pressure when an issue arrives.

Balancing your crank is a breeze...it's fun when you have a crank that large spinning 2000+gram bobweights at 700 or more rpms... Creates lots of air movement. I had to add nearly 40grams to the last Moldex crank I had since it was balanced for a different setup the third time around.



Howard

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

You were lucky. I had to add 300 grams on the front and almost 200 on the back of the last Moldex I balanced. Nothing cuts holes in those things for heavy metal except carbide.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

good info
thanks Howard

 

[ViperTuner]

You were lucky. I had to add 300 grams on the front and almost 200 on the back of the last Moldex I balanced. Nothing cuts holes in those things for heavy metal except carbide.

WOW! Yea the last one was 42g in the rear and 29g in the front to be exact. And yes a Carbide bit was needed to get through the thing as well! And there is nothing like drilling it on the Balancer-crank-jig designed for crankshafts 6-8" shorter. Would have preferred to be able to set the crank up in our CNC machine and run a program to drill the holes...but oh well. Not that it was the hardest crank we have ever worked on on...but it proved to be a SOB. The Rotax / SeaDoo cranks are super hard due to the abrasive nature of the water/salt mixed in with the oil. I have seen a single piece of Ceramic from the Supercharger bearings get into the oil system and completely shred the main bearing but only microscopically scratch the crankshaft and embed itself into the surface. On an initial inspection I rubbed my finger across(lightly) and it cut the first layer of skin like a scalpel...And I have machinist hands...lol

No problem




Howard

 

[Joseph Dell]

I don't see anything in your post about building the motor at all





stock, or whatever it is currently
not sure if the JM heads changed compression or not

JM allows you to order cylinder heads with whatever chamber size you want. There isn't a 'standard' chamber size.

You missed the part in the other post about quench. Go look that up. You want the thinnest head gasket possible while maintaining proper clearances.

Unfortunately, you don't have too many choices when you've already bought rods and pistons as the head gasket will be whatever it will be. But a thinner gasket means higher compression.

Things you need to calculate compression have already been mentioned: deck height, head gasket thickness, piston dish/dome volume (how many CC's), also head volume (CC's). This, unfortunately, isn't something you can just guess at. And these are all things that need to be considered BEFORE one starts slapping pieces into a motor.

 

[2001 GTS]

I attended Greg's Quench 101 Class last year

My all motor build used a 0.030" head gasket with 78cc chambers and something like 4cc+ of dome on the piston to achieve my 11.5:1 compression. The right quench allows it to have no issues on pump gas!

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Just a quick update...
I got my pistons back from getting the tops ceramicoated for heat reduction and the skirts coated for less friction

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[EllowViper]

I would think the JM heads have the valves unshrowded a bit too. Haven't compared stock chamber vs JM just to see the difference. On the stock heads, you will increase 'cc size of the combustion chamber a bit thereby effectively lowering CR as a byproduct. When I did my stock heads, a lot of material was removed from the head/valve area in order to open them up to the combustion chamber. I would venture a guess that my computed CR dropped .5 which is actually a good thing with my ROE set-up.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I'm guessing these pistons will lower my CR a little with the dish over the flat stock pistons. I'm not sure how much the JM heads lower CR, but I've read its about .2-.3. I may have the heads cc'd by a machine shop while its all apart.

 

[Kmrumedy]

Man...I love threads like this. You learn so much from those that have gone before you.

Bottlefed - Any chance you can document your entire build with pictures and descriptions? Even taking out the engine, etc. Sometimes even what appears to be a simple task can get complicated. Pictures can help us newbies a lot.

Again...great thread and info!! Thanks. John

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Any chance you can document your entire build with pictures and descriptions?

yep, that's the plan

 

[2001 GTS]

Looking good!

Those pistons are now too pretty...hell the whole motor is going to look like a show piece!

 

[EllowViper]

Start on the fuel system engineering yet?? I got the pumps... and am currently pricing out all the "small" pieces. $100 for the pumps and estimate over $600.00+ for the regulator, filter, lines, most fittings...but its fun you know!!

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Start on the fuel system engineering yet?? I got the pumps... and am currently pricing out all the "small" pieces. $100 for the pumps and estimate over $600.00+ for the regulator, filter, lines, most fittings...but its fun you know!!

Just waiting on you to show us how to do it

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Viper is up on stands.... parts are coming off.... pics to follow....

 

[Sneaky Pete]

I may have the heads cc'd by a machine shop while its all apart.

It's not too hard to do yourself, if you have the desire...

 

[John Johns]

This is going to be fun to watch, Tim. Do you plan to have the work complete in time for voi 11?

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Yep, that's the plan