Rebuilding engine advice....

[Qualitywires.com]

With rebuilding a viper engine with new pistons and rods...how difficult is it?

I have had half my engine apart in the past before and looking at, there's not too much to it. All of the parts look like it's "plug and play".

Now I know there's more to it than that, but I was wondering as far as machine work, how much is required is there to do if you are going to upgrade pistons and rods?

I don't need my engine rebuilt but in the future, I wouldn't mind attacking this project down the road. Is there any good books that can explain the procedures of building an engine? I can't imagine it being that hard...or at least for me. I just want to find out more about honing, timing, or wahtever is involved.

Let's say the sleeves are in good condition, can you just drop a new piston in it and rods? I don't think so, but just curious.

Thanks for the advice on any literature out there.

 

[Butch The Snake]

Good Luck, you better save your pennies. It is very expensive to build a V-10 vs a V-8..

If you are serious check out all the prices on all the parts before you start..


Butch
SMS Racing

01 Viper GTS 10.33 e.t @ 136 M.P.H.
02 360 Modena
03 Porsche GT-3 Super Cup Car (finished 5th @ 2004 SCCA National Division)
93.5 Turbo Supra 615 r.w.h.p. 600 r.w.t.q.
04 Cadillac Lade
03 BMW 760 Li
04 Audi S4
Ac Cobra (460 c.i. Ford Racing Motor 550 h.p.)
03 SL55

 

[RedGTS]

Let's say the sleeves are in good condition, can you just drop a new piston in it and rods? I don't think so, but just curious.

Adam, actually you can, but you'll need to at least bead-hone the cylinders so that the pistons will seat properly, and you will also have to very carefully clean up the bottom end of all the crud that gets there from the honing.

 

[Big Medicine]

Take a class at the local Vo-Tech.

 

[Larry Macedo]

At minimum, have a competent machine shop do a clean up hone and ensure they use a hone plate which can be purchased through Arrow Racing.

 

[JGK95]

Larry,

Pardon my ignorance, what is a hone plate? is it a reusable component? I have a vague idea of the honing process but would appreciate your input on the whole concept.

Thanks,

Jay K.

 

[Qualitywires.com]

JGK good question..what is a hone plate...should it be done with a torque plate also or is that the same?

 

[Torquemonster]

JGK good question..what is a hone plate...should it be done with a torque plate also or is that the same?

Take Larry's advice it is sound... and it is the same thing as a torque plate.

A honing (torque) plate simulates a head on the bank of the engine being honed.

why use it?

Picture what normally happens when a block is bored/honed. The bare block is bored out then final honed for ring finish - or maybe just has the bores honed if it is a clean up.

Later the engine builder fits and torques up the main caps, then bolts on the heads - the actions of all of this pulls the bores out of round and creates a taper. To make maximum power and efficiency you want straight (no taper) and perfectly round bores UNDER OPERATING CONDITIONS.

The only way to do this is to have the block stressed under operating conditions when the bores are prepared.

This means you must oversize the bores enough to correct them - i.e. go at least 0.010" up in size. It means the block will be bored and finish honed (grit size of finish depends upon rings selected) with the main caps all torqued up, a head and gasket torqued up on the other bank, and the honing plate on the bank being done.

The honing late copies the head in that it is a solid slab of metal typically 2.5" thick that has holes right thru it so the boring/honing bar can go right through into the block, while the bolt holes are countersunk to simulate the same thread engagement as the heads do..... at least that would be a properly made one. The best honing plate would be an old head that had a boring bar mill right through each chamber to make 5 holes big enough for the boring bar to go into the block.

Some go to the trouble of heating the block as well - that's ok for ProStock, probably not worth the extra effort for the street - but the above mentioned procedure is definitely worth it

it is worth 50hp on a musclecar big block.... but with improvements in casting etc - probably only 20-25hp on the Viper.... but still worth it because the gain is not just power but durability of ring life, better seal etc.

Here's the blueprint specs:

0.0002" tolerance for out of round (top and bottom) and same for taper.

Now for the cruncher:

Not one machine shop in 10 could genuinely acheive that.... they SAY they can, but I'm telling you they can't. Solution - go to the inconvenience to use a machine shop that builds very finely toleranced engines - it will be worth the shipping as machining to fine tolerances are the foundation on which everything else is built. The best parts on a poor to middling machined long block is only ever going to be a fair to middling example of what it might have been.



patience is the word in a good engine.... the finest tolerances, attention to detail, checking and rechecking - and the reward is something special that will give you years of service and just be sharper than everyone elses.

 

[joe117]

Barry is correct. An engine that is carefully blueprinted is better than one that isn't.
You can spend lots of time and money to get everything just perfect. And he's also right about the quality that you will get from the "average" machine shop.

It's hard to find one that can really do what they claim. And you have to have some fairly good equipment to check the work they do when it comes to really precise work.

I've seen some reports posted by people who had an Arrow rebuild.
They always say that the crank mains had to be line bored in order to bring the engine to spec.
I believe them, these engines were out of spec. Now, how did that happen? I believe that the engines were built out of spec. The fix that Arrow did was great but did it really need to be done? I guess it depends on how good you want the engine.

Know anyone who races sailboats? Ask them how good the bottom finish needs to be.
They will tell you something like "how much money do you have?"
In other words, you can spend all you want and it can always be made better no matter how much you spend.

But I believe that one can quickly reach the point of diminishing returns when it comes to sailboat bottoms or engine specs.

If one is doing the rebuild as a "project" that is in itself part of the "perfect Viper" experience,
well go for it. It can be a fun winter project and you will know that everything is perfect when you are done.

You asked,
"Let's say the sleeves are in good condition, can you just drop a new piston in it and rods? I don't think so, but just curious."

I'd say the answer to your question is "yes". Provided there isn't a ridge at the top, you can rough up the holes, gap the new rings and go for it.

Will it be as good as new? I'd say "yes". Because it wasn't perfect when it was new. It was good enough.

Your question is one that someone asks when they want to do a good job with a budget.

Barrys right. Perfection is best. Just don't let all that bluprinting talk make you think that you cant do a "good as new" rebuild using "normal" tollerances and procedures.

 

[Larry Macedo]

Perfection is my middle name... LOL! AB, if your going to reuse your connecting rods, do yourself a favor and buy the replacement ARP 2000 bolts.

Very good answers from the gents above too!

 

[Qualitywires.com]

Thanks Larry...I have already used the ARP studs on my heads and very pleased with them. I am going to ARP everything.

I am not looking to rebuild my engine anytime soon, but maybe I will just send it out when the time comes.

 

[VIPR GTS]

Mr. Macedo is a picture of perfection when you watch him assymble an engine. Let Larry do it right for you, no worries then.

 

[RedGTS]

AB, if your going to reuse your connecting rods, do yourself a favor and buy the replacement ARP 2000 bolts.

Larry, did the newer Vipers come with ARP rod bolts? I heard the stock rod bolts (at least on my '01) were made by ARP.