Rocky Mountain Radar C-450 Radar/Laser Detector/Scrambler

MR. BAD ASP

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I have been looking to purchase a Radar Detector for quite a while now. The 65 in a 35 ticket the other day has forced my hand. :mad:

I have seen the RMR C-450 in magazine ads for some time. Motor Trend, Car and Driver, and Automobile magazine all have ads on this detector.

It boasts some nice features. Voice commands, POP radar, radar and laser scrambling, etc.

My question is: does it work and has anyone else tried one? I recall seeing a thread on here about Rocky Mountain Radars being ineffective. Not necessarily this model, but the detectors in general.

Here is a link to its web page:

RMR-C450

Any feedback on this detector will be greatly appreciated. It costs $300 so before I lay out any money I want to see if it is worth it. I am familiar of more noted detectors such as Valentine and ******, but none seem to be (or claim) to be a scrambler as well.

Thanks in advance. :2tu:
 

fuelman

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If the scrambler function works that would be nice. I have the Valentine I and the latest Bel 945. The Bel seems to pick up more signals, but you can't beat those directional arrows on the V1. The other day pulling ont the Freeway I knew there was a cop on the other side of the on-ramp because of the arrows. V1 rules!
 

RedEnuf93

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Valentine 1.
Has saved my drivers licence many times.

My friend bought a Rocky Mountain jammer, it did absolutely nothing.
 

Vipera Russelli

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My guess is that the Rocky Mountain Radar doesn't work.

First off, according to Valentine One at least, jammers are illegal

http://www.valentine1.com/lab/Previously2.asp
(Note that the FCC order posted by Valentine actually discusses Rocky Mountain Radar.)

Second, and more importantly, it doesn't appear as if jammers actually work. I've read more than one independent test report that concluded that Rocky Mountain Radars don't scramble or jam radar at all.

See, for example http://www.radarbusters.com/support/jammers/Default.asp (Note that there are links in this article to other articles that all reach the same conclution--the jammers don't work.)

If it were me, I would ask Rocky Mountain Radar (i) to respond to Valentine’s claim that jammers are illegal, (ii) to point you to, or otherwise provide, an independent third-party review or test illustrating convincingly the effectiveness of the RMR jamming function, and (iii) to get you comfortable with their return policy, just in case you’re not happy with what you get.

I purchased a Phantom II radar detector/jammer, which is made by Rocky Mountain Radar, a couple of years ago after confirming the vender's satisfaction-guaranteed policy. Then, as luck would have it, I found a New Zealand (where jammers are legal) independent review of several radar detectors and jammers, which concluded, in relevant part, that the RMR Phantom didn't jam radar at all (not even a little bit). Furthermore, when the RMR Phantom arrived, it was immediately apparent and painfully obvious that it was a piece of plastic junk (e.g., the parts were ill-fitting and poorly aligned, and the "detector/receptor" was partially obscured by the plastic housing for no apparent reason other than shoddy design). I didn't even finish unpacking it before calling the vender to arrange for its return, which is when I first found out about the 30% restocking fee! What a scam! :mad:

Since then, I went with the Valentine One and have been very, very pleased with its performance and, when I needed it, the customer service. The Valentine doesn't jam radar (or, perhaps more to the point, it doesn’t claim to jam radar), but it does detect radar extremely well and is obviously very well thought-out, designed and constructed. If a jammer ever comes out on the market that really works, I'll buy one, but I'll still keep my Valentine for radar detection.

Best of luck!

And by the way... WELCOME to the Club, Richard!
 

joe117

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I have a V1. It works and the arrows are a good feature.

I'm a retired electronics warfare guy. I can tell you that it is fairly easy to jam police radar. It can be done.
There are two ways to do it.

One way is to transmit a pulsed signal. The signal is pulsed at a rate that the victim radar, (the police radar), will receive and see as the doppler return from the target, your car). Using this method, you can cause the victim radar to display any speed that you desire.
This method is NOT LEGAL because it transmits a microwave signal.

The other method is to have some kind of reflector on the target. The reflector is designed to allow the reflector to be turned on and off. In other words, it can be made to reflect and then not reflect.
The reflector is turned on and off at a rate that will cause the victim radar to receive a pulsed return that it mistakes for the doppler signal it is looking for.
This method IS LEGAL. However, the size of the reflector required makes this method impractical. It also requires the same reflector on the back of the car.

I believe that the radar "jammers/scramblers" being marketed, are designed to work as pulsed reflectors. The problem is, the reflector device is so small that the pulsed reflection is much weaker than the return from the target.

I do not believe that any jammer/scrambler sold over the counter in the USA will be effective.
 

STUGOTS

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All Rocky mountain radar jammers DO NOT WORK.

I will tell you what does you need 2 diffrent ones to be totally coverd.

To block lazer you need the Blinder system its the best and to block radar the Scorpian ultmate.

They can both be found here.

http://www.jammersstore.com/11_jammer/041-phantom-radar-jammer.htm

its a good site notice they tell you whats passive and whats active every, they only sell the ones that are tested to work everything on the active side works the passive side does not, its just a matter of what bands they have in your area I have the one that jams every band just to be safe.

Good luck

BTW the 2 I mentioned above are the 2 that I have and have proven they work MYSELF (dads friend is a cop)
 

Schulmann

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I have an ****** Passport X50 that I paid $300.
I used it to drive down to Dallas VOI 8 and got tickets ...

All the reviews that I read about the X50 stated that it can detect everything as far as 3 mi. I can tell you from my personal experience that its detection abilities are very weak. Espectially in the Kentucky Hills it was absolutely useless. I had to slow down to 80mph in Kentucky. However the false alarm rate was low.

I am a heavy speeder and usually ride above 100mph. So I really needed a long range detection device. But this stupid X50 only warned me like 3-4 seconds before I got into the detection range of the cops.

I know that this board is about another type of radar detector but I hope that my experience can save $300 to somebody else.
 

steel snake

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While we're on radar(I'm looking too)technically it's a no-no? In other words should it be out of sight? And if so, where do you put it in the Viper? There are a limited # of hiding places. Thanks, AT :cool:
 

DG Viper

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I have an ****** Passport X50 that I paid $300.
I used it to drive down to Dallas VOI 8 and got tickets ...

All the reviews that I read about the X50 stated that it can detect everything as far as 3 mi. I can tell you from my personal experience that its detection abilities are very weak. Espectially in the Kentucky Hills it was absolutely useless. I had to slow down to 80mph in Kentucky. However the false alarm rate was low.

Just curious... would the V-1 actually perform better in hills? If so, that would be good for me to know when it comes time for me to get a new radar...
 

Cop Magnet

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I have an ****** Passport X50 that I paid $300.
I used it to drive down to Dallas VOI 8 and got tickets ...

All the reviews that I read about the X50 stated that it can detect everything as far as 3 mi. I can tell you from my personal experience that its detection abilities are very weak. Espectially in the Kentucky Hills it was absolutely useless. I had to slow down to 80mph in Kentucky. However the false alarm rate was low.

Just curious... would the V-1 actually perform better in hills? If so, that would be good for me to know when it comes time for me to get a new radar...

Doubt it. All these speed devices are line-of-site.
Joe117, very informative post. Where can I pick up some ECM chaff and a few HARM's?? :headbang:
 

Schulmann

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The probleme is that all magazine reviews were done in the desert: No tree, No hills, No trucks, No other cars ....

Once I got caught in Reno, NV because I was in the shade of a truck, in the mountains etc. The cop caught me at 92mph event though I hit my breaks really hard.

I dont't know if for heavy speeders any type of radar detector is effective. When you ride 100mph, in 36 seconds you make 1 mile. It means that you have to have 1 mile straight road to detect the cop enough early. 36 seconds isn't much at 100mph. And likely the cop will be behind a tree, a rock or a bridge and will fire his gun in the last seconds ....

If I was you, I would give a try to Valentine one.
You should forget Bell and ****** ... both are made by the same Canadian company.
 

joe117

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"Where can I pick up some ECM chaff and a few HARM's??"

I know you are just kidding but chaff doesn't help with doppler radar. Modern chaff is made of fiberglass hairs coated with a very very thin layer of aluminium.
Very soon after deployment the chaff stops moving, so it has no effect on doppler radar.

The Harm, "High Speed Antiradiation Missile", will do the job. They are, shall we say, conspicuous. Of course, the Viper draws attention anyway so perhaps a couple of 12 foot long Harms might not cause more notice.

Stu,
I know you say you tested the Scorpion and you say it works. The problem I have with that is the physics. In order to jam a doppler radar, certain things must be done. In order for Scorpion to do these things, it must transmit a signal.
If it transmits a signal it is not legal.
I've yet to see an engineering discussion of how they claim they jam radar.
Without a good explanation I'll have to continue to doubt that it will do the job.

As for the ability of a radar warning receiver, RWR, to work in hills.

An RWR is going to have a certain level of sensitivity. The more sensitive it is, the weaker the radar signal that it can detect.
All police radars are microwave frequency devices. Microwaves travel in straight lines only. If you are behind a hill, the only way an RWR will detect the radar is to have scattered reflections from things that are in the radar beam.

A street sign or another car that is cresting the hill that you are behind may scatter enough signal to trigger a warning.

So, it comes down to this,
the more sensitive your RWR, the more likely you are to get a warning caused by some weak reflection bouncing your way.

There is no way one RWR can be better at hilly roads without being more sensitive.

So, the RWR that comes out on top in a flat desert road test will be the one best at hilly roads too.
 

phiebert

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I went through quite a few detectors before I found the Valentine. It is the one I use now. It has saved me a lot of times and is reasonable when it comes to false signals. I live in the mountains so I'm always dealing with curves and hills. The V1 seems to be sensitive enough to have always picked up radar even if it is reflected off another vehicle cresting a corner ahead of me.

During an event a couple years ago there were 6 of us with different detectors driving through the mountains, only my V1 detected early enough that I could call the rest on an FRS radio and slow the pack down before we rounded a corner and saw the cop. Later when we talked about it the other guys all said their detectors only went off once they were around the corner. So that leads me to believe the V1 is more sensitive and was the only one that picked up reflected radar. I believe it was K or Ka band, not much X band used up here anymore. I guess I could just have been the only lucky one that had a car reflecting at the right angle to hit my detector but I doubt it.

I did get a ticket once with the Valentine though. I was hit with a laser for the first time and the V1's signal for laser sounded like my cell phone ringing! So instead of slowing down I dug around in my pocket for my phone!! Had I recognized the sound though I would have had enough time to avoid that ticket too.

Hey, and what is the shot about detectors made in Canada being junk...so maybe we **** at radar detectors but we make some mean hockey sticks!
 

STUGOTS

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Stu,
I know you say you tested the Scorpion and you say it works. The problem I have with that is the physics. In order to jam a doppler radar, certain things must be done. In order for Scorpion to do these things, it must transmit a signal.
If it transmits a signal it is not legal.
I've yet to see an engineering discussion of how they claim they jam radar.
Without a good explanation I'll have to continue to doubt that it will do the job.


I guess the only way for you to believe is to buy one and give it a shot.
I wasted alot of money and time and just about any and every one out there just about and 98% of them do nothing now I see you do know what your talking about in this field theres no doubt about that and I know nothing about this field theres no doubt about that either, However I have tried it personaly with a cop thats a family friend on many diffrent occations (its kinda like a game to him now everytime they get anything new he thinks he can "stump me") and I will tell you this with those 2 radar and lazer jammers/scramblers he has yet to clock me and I have yet to get a ticket no matter where I go.

As a matter of fact im buying another one of each for the Snake the one I have no is currently in my Rustang (daily driver).
 

cayenne

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While we're on radar(I'm looking too)technically it's a no-no? In other words should it be out of sight? And if so, where do you put it in the Viper? There are a limited # of hiding places. Thanks, AT :cool:

Depends on the state you are in. I've only heard that one or two ban radar detectors...somewhere out east?

I've not lived in a state that banned them...and I don't take my down when passing a cop. When I was last pulled over (light was yellow, I swear)..I did have the courtesy to turn the V1 switch to the off position to shut it up...
:)

But, just check the laws of your state, radar detectors are legal in most states. I'd imagine that if someone had the cash and time, they could challenge the banning in the states that do...I mean, it is just a means, technically of detecting electronic survelliance isn't it?
 

joe117

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Stu,
I looked at the site posted by "prodiver". They have tested many of the passive jammers and they claim that none of them work.

They also tested your Scorpion jammer. They claim that it is an active jammer.
Of course an active jammer can be made to work very well against police radar.

It's hard for me to understand how a company could simply ignore the FCC by producing and marketing an illegal device designed to interfere with an FCC type approved device.

But, perhaps that's what they are doing.

Here's a quote from the radardetectors.com site.

"You could be fined thousands of dollars, you could be jailed and/or be placed on federal probation.
It is a federal felony to possess and operate these jammers"

As I said, you can jam police radar but you can't do it with a legal device.

Stu, when you bought your Scorpion jammer,
were there any warnings or disclaimers telling you that it wasn't legal to operate and posses the thing?

I'm just wondering if they are trying to get around the FCC by making some kind of a bogus statement in the fine print telling the buyer not to use the jammer.
 

SylvanSRT

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actually i think it is more like the old black boxes for cable legal to own and posses, BUT the minute you connect or use it for its intended purpose you break the law.
 

DFiorelli

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From the Scorpion Ultimate product description on the jammerstore site:

"Low milliwatt output to adhere to FCC limitations under Article 15." "Currently jamming radar is not allowed in OK, NE, MN, CA, UT and Virginia."

Thus, they claim that the unit is active and FCC legal although there are state limitations.

I have no idea if they are correct.
 

joe117

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In order for an active jammer to work,
the signal transmitted by the jammer to the victim radar,
must be stronger than the radar's own signal reflected back from the target.

The signal transmitted by the radar and the reflected return signal, are enhanced by the high gain antenna built into the radar gun.
By aiming the gun at the target, the radar sends most of its signal right where he wants it to go,
like a spotlight.

The received reflection also is enhanced by the radar's directional antenna.
This is called "antenna gain" and it works on transmit and receive.

Now consider the task of the jammer,
The jammer must send as much of its signal to the victim radar as possible.
However, you don't know exactly where he might be.
So,
the jammer must spread its signal over all the possible areas where the victim radar may reside.

This wastes the power of the jammer.
The jammer can't use a "high gain" antenna because he doesn't know where to point the beam.

Ok, so if you are going to take advantage of some FCC law that allows a certain amount of low level signal to be transmitted, you have a hard task.
The physics of the problem are stacked in favor of the radar.

"Low milliwatt output to adhere to FCC limitations under Article 15."

A milliwatt is 1/1000 of a watt.

The police radar devices I have played around with seem to have a power level of about 100 to 200 milliwatts.
Couple that with an antenna that has 20dB gain and you have an "Efective Radiated Power" or ERP of 40dBm or about 10 watts.
"dBm" means decibles above a milliwatt.
0 dBm = 1 milliwatt
10 dBm = 10 milliwatt
20 dBm = 100 milliwatt
30 dBm = 1 watt
40 dBm = 10 watts

The received reflection from the target is also enhanced by the 20dB gain of the radar's antenna.

Your jammer is at a distinct disadvantage against this aimed beam.

This is a problem that any engineer has to take into consideration when determining how effective his jamming will be.

Stealth technology may be employed to lower the "Radar Cross Section" or RCS of the target.
Items such as headlight reflectors provide a very good reflection. They are what we call retro reflectors in that they send the signal right back to its point of origin.
Any reduction of the target's RCS will help the jammer do its job.

Again,
I have seen no numbers on these jammers. No technical discussion of how they are to work has been provided.
Because of this, I'm still of the opinion that they will not be effective if they are legal.
 

STUGOTS

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Stu,


It's hard for me to understand how a company could simply ignore the FCC by producing and marketing an illegal device designed to interfere with an FCC type approved device.

But, perhaps that's what they are doing.

Now your getting it may not be eithical BUT it does work

Stu, when you bought your Scorpion jammer,
were there any warnings or disclaimers telling you that it wasn't legal to operate and posses the thing?


Nope not a 1 but then again I bought mine awhile ago so you never know now.

I'm just wondering if they are trying to get around the FCC by making some kind of a bogus statement in the fine print telling the buyer not to use the jammer.
 

Vic

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Joe, would "blacking out" the headlight reflector area with some special paint reduce the effectiveness of aiming a radar gun at the front of the car?

Does the Viper have any advantage over say, a Ford F350, in that it has a more rounded shape, with less flat surfaces to bounce micro waves off of?

A few years ago, there was a magazine write-up on a "stealth" Vette. Ok, mybe it was quite a few years ago, since it was a (then new) C4. Some of the mods they did to it were brake and tail lights cut-out switches, narrow beam headlights that made a small illuminated patch on the ground, making the car difficult to spot at night from the rear, special paint on the body and rims, etc... The most notable feature was a highly illegal radar-jammer. This wasn't something small that was stuck on the windshield! It was a big as a "bread box", (old phrase there), sat on the floor of the passenger side, and it had some dials on the front of it, where I think you could set what speed you wanted the radar gun to display.

Any ideas what brand that was? Doesn't sound like something I've heard for sale anywhere. Maybe it was handbuilt. Years later I saw the same car for sale in the classifieds, sans radar jammer.

About my Valentine 1, it has given me warnings over hilltops, but like has been said, thats probably just because of reflected signals. Most of the time, its giving me warnings so early, I'm the only one slowing down! On our flat freeways, sometimes it goes off miles before I finally actually see the CHP, which makes me slow for quite a ways. If I get a forward arrow, I can tell the difference between a bogey that is stopped in front of me on either side of the freeway, or traveling in the same direction, but up ahead, (CHP has rear-facing radar, as well as front), as compared to a moving bogey coming at me from the opposite lanes of traffic. If they are stopped in front, the signal strength tone gets louder and higher pitched at a normal rate, and if they are moving in the same direction in front, the warning changes much slower, but if they are coming from the opposite lanes, the warning pitch increases much faster. What good is that, you say? Well, there are so many cars on the freeway in SoCal, a CHP is not likely to take notice of speeders in opposite lanes, unless its something really wild. So when I get a forward arrow warning, I don't have to slow to below the pace of traffic, if the bogey warning isn't on my side of the freeway. Since the Valentine 1 is so sensitive, this helps me to generally stay with the flow, and not have to slow down suddenly just because I get a moving bogey from the other side of the freeway.

My Valentine 1 did not work so well, when cresting a hill that was also a turn. One time I was doing 80, and the warning went off like two seconds before he crested from the other direction, then we were eye-ball to eye-ball! Thank God I got a warning only, 'cause he had me dead-to-rights! When he asked me how fast the car went, I told him I've had it up to 170. Then I thought I shouldn't have bragged, because there aren't any tracks out here where you can get up that fast! Which would have begged the next question, "Where did you go that fast?" (He didn't ask me)

I think radar detectors can serve to slow people down, because it (1). Makes them aware of their speed and surroundings, which promotes mirror use and general alertness, (2). Scares the bejeezus out of them when it goes off, (3). Causes other cars to "surf" the detector owner's car, which slows them down also, especially if they got Valentine 1, 'cause it picks up a lot of bogeys!
 

joe117

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The headlights that turn back, as on the C4 will cause a reduction in RCS.

A metal mesh can be used to keep fixed headlights from acting as a retro reflector.
The mesh size has to be about 1/10 wavelength. For K band that comes to about .046" mesh.
Not too practical.
Another way would be to use some of that metalized mylar that is used for window tinting.
The lightest tint available will probably reduce the RCS enough to make it worth doing.
I don't know if that would reduce the light too much.

RCS reducing paints and mats are available. They are expensive and they need to be fairly thick in order to work.
You wouldn't want them on your Viper.

The rounded metal body of a vehicle may cause some effective scattering. Probably not enough to compensate for the larger size of a target like an F-150.

All in all, I'd say that there isn't much that one could do in the real world that would reduce the RCS of a vehicle other than the headlight thing that I mentioned above.

The jammer you mentioned could have been real. It was probably a high powered pulsed microwave source.

The problem that I see in the central location that you spoke of, is the need to have waveguide running to all the antennas that are needed for jamming. You will need at least a front and rear antenna.

K band microwave can't be sent through a cable. There is just too much loss. Waveguide must be used. Waveguide is like little square pipe.
It is stunningly expensive for k band. Forget it.

So if they had the jammer sitting on the passenger side floor, they were glossing over some serious practical problems.

K band microwave can be generated by a Gunn diode in a small cavity. These Gunn diode devices are cheap. They are used as door openers in stores. You walk up, reflecting microwave back to the unit and it triggers the door opener.

The problem is, those things are the only reasonably priced K band components available. Everything else is super expensive.
 

joe117

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Looking back at what I wrote I can see that I mixed up my answer to the F-150 question.
The F-150 will have a large RCS because it is a large vehicle. In general, the more square inches of surface, the more reflection.

The Viper body with non metallic paint is probably transparent to K band.
I haven't seen any data on metallic paint but I'm sure it will reflect K band. If it does, there may be a big difference between the RCS of a black Viper and that of a B&W metallic Viper.

Now,
would the transparent body be good or bad? That's a good question.
The transparent body would let the radar see all the mechanical stuff under the hood. There's probably quite a few things that would reflect in there.

A smooth reflective body might just be better than a transparent one.
RCS measurement work is very expensive.
So everyone should send Uncle Joe a check for say, $100.
When I get a couple of hundred K$, I'll start to set up a lab and we can start finding out what works and what doesn't.

Of course there will be some consulting fees, travel, entertainment costs, you know how it is.
 

Vic

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Lol! heh heh, yeah, its those extra costs that drives development costs up!

Thanks for the reply.
 

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