ROE #10 Timing

[EllowViper]

BLUF: What timing are you guys running above 5K on your ROE with W/M? I'm pulling really strong up to 5K and then I'm getting backfiring/missing as I climb through 5-6K RPM. DOn't know if its a fuel issue or not enough timing. No audible knock at any point. With the stock fuel system and the BAP, I'm pulling a good 11.2 AFR all the way through the run but when I hit 5200 or so...pop pop pop and it goes south. Can't tell what the fuel pressure is since the gauge is under the hood...duh. Delivered timing is around 4-5 degrees ******** from stock at this load/RPM...so in the range of 25 degrees BTDC at 5500RPM. FYI...It seem the more timing retard I put in, the worse it gets. Can it actually need more timing??? Seem unreal that I could run that much timing even with w/m...but maybe not. Should be over 100 octane delivered with the w/m. Thus the question. THX!!

 

[Red Snake]

My best guess would be running out of fuel. My tuner upgraded the fuel pump to a Walbro 255 (with BAP) when we went from the 8 pound to the 10 pound pulley.

 

[Russ M]

Thats alot of timing, way too much timing, way way too much timing. If it was my car it would not see any more than 15 degrees and even that would be on good fuel.

Far as your popping goes it can be many things.

 

[plumcrazy]

get a better fuel system asap. i bet its detonation rather than misfire and popping

 

[EllowViper]

Agree with all that's been posted regarding the fuel. Treading on thin ice no doubt and I'm pondering the options. Still not sure about the timing limits. I did see a log by KenH with his 6.5 and W/M..he was running about 36 degree total advance on his...I think adding about 6 degrees between 5-6K for a total delivered advance of around 35-36 degrees. Need to find that post.

 

[1TONY1]

BLUF: What timing are you guys running above 5K on your ROE with W/M? I'm pulling really strong up to 5K and then I'm getting backfiring/missing as I climb through 5-6K RPM. DOn't know if its a fuel issue or not enough timing. No audible knock at any point. With the stock fuel system and the BAP, I'm pulling a good 11.2 AFR all the way through the run but when I hit 5200 or so...pop pop pop and it goes south. Can't tell what the fuel pressure is since the gauge is under the hood...duh. Delivered timing is around 4-5 degrees ******** from stock at this load/RPM...so in the range of 25 degrees BTDC at 5500RPM. FYI...It seem the more timing retard I put in, the worse it gets. Can it actually need more timing??? Seem unreal that I could run that much timing even with w/m...but maybe not. Should be over 100 octane delivered with the w/m. Thus the question. THX!!

Add some race fuel to be safe and then take away your retard in that area and above. With W/M my car never had retard anywhere in the curve even with 93 octane. Yours should be the same........the race fuel is insurance for testing. I won't mention the advance I ran...some folks might have a stroke

 

[EllowViper]

http://forums.viperclub.org/gen-ii/619091-need-tuning-help.htmlhttp://forums.viperclub.org/gen-ii/619091-need-tuning-help.htmlb

Found the tuning link. Looks like the recommendation is to pull about 5 degrees timing at redline on the 5-6.5 PSI ROEs. That's right about where I'm at right now. Ken is advancing his 3 degrees to around 33 BTDC. It might just be a case of dialing in a bit more W/M at that point if I'm getting a case of detonation. I'm not maxed-out yet running a 200 PSI pump at around 70%. Running 93 octane gas as well.
Also, Running t[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]he "V" design [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]ZFR6F11 (one heat range cooler) that Kenne Bell recommends for blown Dodge 5.9 motors. According to Kenne Bell, t[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]he ZFR5F11 is NGK's Viper V-10 plug -- with a nose that[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]projects farther into the combustion chamber.[/SIZE][/FONT] I really want to RC10ECCs but you know the story with those. The car really runs well with these plugs by the way. Gaped at .028.

 

[KNG SNKE]

You make me nervous.

 

[EllowViper]

Me too...after eating a cast piston already!! But I like to tinker.

 

[1TONY1]

The car really runs well with these plugs by the way. Gaped at .028.

Except at 5200 and up

 

[EllowViper]

Oh yea...I forgot what this post was all about. Ha Ha.. Anyone have issues blowing out spark at high boost? Thats the only reason I went with a .28 gap vice probably.33 or so. This is an area most don't discuss or talk about on here. We need a truly techical page that gets into all the "proprietory" details.. W/M and the design of the head are also suppose to cool the extended reach spark plugs given where they are located in relationship to the intake charge. I'd love to mess around with RC12ECCs just to see how those would work. Maybe they'd literally be "DYNOMITE"...

 

[KenH]

I do run mine a little advanced over stock above 4000RPM. It just runs better that way. My car will pull all the way to redline while most people complain about their cars dropping off at 5000-5500 or so. Not sure if that is the reason or not.

I don't rely upon the W/M to increase octane, I use Torco Accelerator for that. I tune myself and have about 20,000 miles on the car since I installed the Roe with no issues (knock on wood).

For plugs I am a fan of the NGK iridiums which are gapped at .028". They worked better for me than the RC12ECC's. I think I am running 1 heat range colder than stock.

Since you are running a 10# forged setup, I'd follow 1Tony1's lead. Now that he's moved on to TT's perhaps he'll share his Roe/VEC tuning numbers.....

 

[EllowViper]

Ha...it seems that since some have paid tuners $$$ to get their ROE's dialed in they are not quite so apt to "share" this intellectual capital. Can't blame them and this issue has been touched on before regarding getting a site set-up where we can share/compare tunes...and some just don't really have a way to share their tunes since they do not do their own tuning. Oh well, its just tiresome trying to drive, log, tune, and stay out of trouble...especially when the tuning software likes to crap out during logging..."runtime error" and locks-up. I'm in Suffolk all week so off to meet KNG SNKE tonight for dinner (and to check out his ROE project!!). I think this weekend when I get home, I'm going to try to blast max W/M, add more timing (to around 30 degrees) and either be a hero or zero. I've got lots of injector duty cycle to work with so that in and of itself isn't an issue. Fuel starvation might be but right now my AFR isn't indicating that to be the case. If that doesn't work, I'll try dumping fuel and retarding to around 20-22 degrees just to see if it can hit 6K without issue. I'll work backwards from there. I will be upgrading the fuel system at some point and plan on trying Siemen DEKA #60 injectors too. I love this stuff!!

 

[1TONY1]

Ha...it seems that since some have paid tuners $$$ to get their ROE's dialed in they are not quite so apt to "share" this intellectual capital. Can't blame them and this issue has been touched on before regarding getting a site set-up where we can share/compare tunes...and some just don't really have a way to share their tunes since they do not do their own tuning. Oh well, its just tiresome trying to drive, log, tune, and stay out of trouble...especially when the tuning software likes to crap out during logging..."runtime error" and locks-up. I'm in Suffolk all week so off to meet KNG SNKE tonight for dinner (and to check out his ROE project!!). I think this weekend when I get home, I'm going to try to blast max W/M, add more timing (to around 30 degrees) and either be a hero or zero. I've got lots of injector duty cycle to work with so that in and of itself isn't an issue. Fuel starvation might be but right now my AFR isn't indicating that to be the case. If that doesn't work, I'll try dumping fuel and retarding to around 20-22 degrees just to see if it can hit 6K without issue. I'll work backwards from there. I will be upgrading the fuel system at some point and plan on trying Siemen DEKA #60 injectors too. I love this stuff!!

I did a lot of the drive/log/tune .... still am
Are you logging through the Vec software or the Innovate ? I always used the innovate along with logging the RPM into the innovate software. Never did log the w/b with the Vec software.

 

[EllowViper]

I might try using Innovate LogWorks and the VEC simultaniously and compare. After being on the road all week, might be tough to "break away" from the family duties to go play.

 

[EllowViper]

Did some tuning this afternoon. Right now, it seems to like a bit more timing at the top end. I'm at 22 degrees from 4000-4500 (stock timing). Up to 24 degrees at 5000, and around 26-27 at 5000-6000. I think I'm running out of fuel now however. I have the Bosch Green Top injectors. ROE instructions indicated these are #50 injectors but everything I read indicate Green Tops are #42. My base offset is set on #50 lb injectors...so if these are #42, then that might be the problem too.

 

[KNG SNKE]

Did some tuning this afternoon. Right now, it seems to like a bit more timing at the top end. I'm at 22 degrees from 4000-4500 (stock timing). Up to 24 degrees at 5000, and around 26-27 at 5000-6000. I think I'm running out of fuel now however. I have the Bosch Green Top injectors. ROE instructions indicated these are #50 injectors but everything I read indicate Green Tops are #42. My base offset is set on #50 lb injectors...so if these are #42, then that might be the problem too.

Um yes that is a problem. If your running an offset for a different injector you most likely are topping them out. You need bigger injectors.

 

[1TONY1]

Did some tuning this afternoon. Right now, it seems to like a bit more timing at the top end. I'm at 22 degrees from 4000-4500 (stock timing). Up to 24 degrees at 5000, and around 26-27 at 5000-6000. I think I'm running out of fuel now however. I have the Bosch Green Top injectors. ROE instructions indicated these are #50 injectors but everything I read indicate Green Tops are #42. My base offset is set on #50 lb injectors...so if these are #42, then that might be the problem too.

I believe the green tops were called 46lb by Roe. The reason is that the 42lb number "supposedly" is at 42.5 psi and Vipers are around 55 psi.

I don't think your offset has anything to do with running lean at higher rpm. It could effect normal driving/idlle unless tuned around. That offset is just supposed to get you in the ballpark by adjusting the fuel amount because of the larger injectors. As in., any number higher or lower offset will not give you more fuel at full throttle.
If anyone thinks differently please post up.
More timing = leaner a/f too. So if you are increasing timing up top (I think you needed too) you will also need to add a touch of fuel to keep the same A/F.
What W/M mix are you running ?

 

[EllowViper]

Just added more fuel last night since my laptop ran out of battery during my tuning session. It figures. I'm mixing my own W/M right now 50-50 mix for the more part. 200PSI pump with (2) 325 ml injectors in the tubes. I'm running a progressive shot with max coming on at +9 PSI @ 3500 RPM. Ramping up from around 20% @ 5-6 PSI at 2500 RPM. Max timing retard is in the 2000-2500 RPM range under max boost. I think around 9 degrees total retard in that area. So its not a really complicated arrangement and I'm getting closer each time. I do have the ROE manifold ported and plumbed with (10) 63 ml injectors directly into the ports from the underneath. Right now those are plugged at the "T" and not hooked-up. I wanted to get it tuned correctly with the current arrangement before I started messing with a direct port W/M variable. But if I think I'm not getting enough W/M right now, I may plug in those (10) and see what happends (just need to remove a plug in the line at the "T" underneath) Dont' want to choke out the engine with too much vapor either. Other than that, it just simply screams! Oh yea, I like the idea of an additional 255 Walbro and the stock pump plumbed together in the basket. Not sure about plumbing it into the stock regulator system without getting it all apart though.