Roe Facia Kit TEST RESULTS

[dave6666]

After getting the facia kit on last week I took the '01 GTS through all of the normal driving routines yesterday. I do not track the car so that is not a routine.

Ambient temp yesterday in north Texas was 90ish with not too much humidity. Sunny.

* Morning drive in for 13 miles on the hiway was pre-dawn and very light traffic.

* Ran some errands about 11:00 in town in typical traffic, stopping at most lights.

* Drove home at 15:30 and hiway was much more congested. Sunny and warm.

* Went out last night about 22:00 and teased a few Mustangs. My version of "track time."

I will conclude given every scenario above that in general my temp dropped about a fuzzy needle width on the gauge. Would you expect more? Given the claim at Roe's web site, yes, but hold on here. I have a stock thermostat and stock radiator (brand new Ron Davis waiting to be installed next) so I am riding the stat. To cool the engine more now, as read by the gauge, I need a lower temp stat. I have the air now to do more cooling, it just won't show until phase 2 - radiator & t-stat.

I recommend this kit for anyone that actually drives their car.

A quick comparison of mod $'s...

This kit - $200 and I can see results now, with more to come. Better engine cooling is priceless!

The new flash programmers - $600 for 20hp. You're working overtime right now to get that money...

I'd spend the $200 first!

 

[Catwood]

I still think this is a mod for the track. I go on Oct 10th and will report.

 

[SSSSE YA]

Thanks for the information, Do You have to “cut” or “drill” the Viper up to install it correctly ??

 

[dave6666]

Thanks for the information, Do You have to “cut” or “drill” the Viper up to install it correctly ??

Here is a post I did showing the facia.

http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=606650

It can be made to look very good depending on your skill and patience. I plan on doing a how to with many more pics in the future.

 

[dave6666]

I still think this is a mod for the track. I go on Oct 10th and will report.

OR, you need the lower t-stat to get the full benefit for street and traffic.

 

[EllowViper]

I do not have the facia kit, but do have the Fluidyne radiator and 170 t-stat. On the highway (anything over 45 mph, I'm running probably too cool...probably right at 170. In stop and go traffic, I'm right at 190+. I guess it never really goes above the 190-195 mark. SO for me, the ROE kit would not help unless I had overheating due to poor airflow THRU THE RADIATOR. I don't really know the MPH needed to get the real effect of the kit. Seem to me in looking at it, the high pressure air in front of the radiator (at highway speed or faster) would escape down, below, and under the radiator vice flowing/forcing through. I don't know, maybe it cleans-up the airflow entering the front of the facia...sort of bleeds off the excess air entering the front of the facia so what is there can actually get through the radiator fins. It sure doesn't push any additional air into the radiator. For me, the jury's out until someone actually posts an airflow graph.

 

[dave6666]

I'm gonna start passing the hat around so we can get Sean a couple of sessions in a wind tunnel.

I don't know though. Maybe he did study this that way. I think I'll call him next week and ask about the research that went in to it.

I'm still happy with the fuzzy needle width of improvement!

 

[Dave's Big Brakes]

I still think this is a mod for the track. I go on Oct 10th and will report.

Hey Carl,

Again, in stop and go traffic, this kit doesn't do anything, BUT
with normal hwy & faster street speeds this Kit is a must. Before the kit, I ran on the 3rd needle mark @ hwy speeds, now my needle sits on the 1st mark
I drive my car everwhere have 57,450 miles in 5 years, these miles includes track ( where I test all my products) and going to the store. This kit is a must(and it's not mine )

End of story

Big Brake Dave
www.davesbigbrakes.com

 

[EllowViper]

I would trust Dave's assessment if no other changes to the cooling system were made. I still wonder what is actually happening regarding airflow.

 

[Catwood]

OR, you need the lower t-stat to get the full benefit for street and traffic.

I'm not seeing any issues on the street in traffic in my area before I installed the kit. On the track on a warm day I have to slow down towards the end of my sessions to get the car to cool down. That's with running the heater. On a hot day it flirts with the red.

The Oct 10th date is projected to be mid 80*. Should be a reasonable test for me and the Roe kit. LILke I said I will report back after that. Like Racecars said, it for high speed airflow deal.

Carl

 

[dave6666]

I'm not seeing any issues on the street in traffic in my area before I installed the kit. On the track on a warm day I have to slow down towards the end of my sessions to get the car to cool down. That's with running the heater. On a hot day it flirts with the red.

The Oct 10th date is projected to be mid 80*. Should be a reasonable test for me and the Roe kit. LILke I said I will report back after that. Like Racecars said, it for high speed airflow deal.

Carl

We all do that occasionally... Even us non-track queens.

Look forward to your results Catwood. Aside from the Vipair, this might be one of the most debated mods to the Viper. Who wants to cut their car up? Show me the numbers first!

Anyway, I hope between me you and lots of others, we'll have some answers and data.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

All, to properly judge this, you have to realize that it won't "decrease" coolant temperatures, it can only minimize the "increase." If you have a 195 thermostat, it will help keep temperatures closer to 195; it can't reduce them below that.

Also, it only allows this benefit when the car is moving, since it provides a more advantageous opening to high pressure air.

At high speeds the air pressure normally would build up under the nose and create some lift. The opening under the fascia lets this air go through the radiator instead of under the car, so there is a dual benefit of better aero and better airflow through the radiator.

I didn't buy the Roe kit, but did make something like it myself. It's one of those clever, Dodge-should-of-done-it ideas. Actually Dodge did do it on other cars - I have a '97 Intrepid with the cut-out. Take a look at other street cars - many do have this already.

 

[RTTTTed]

I agree with all the positive comments here. At a dead stop I doubt there is any benefit however at any speed above 30mph I would expect an improvement in temp as the opening is right in front of the 2" chin spoiler under the nose. That extra air can go through the rad instead of just pushing the car upwards until it gets a chance to squeeze down under the chin spoiler. Since my car has just over 2" of ground clearance under the chin spoiler I plan to get the Roe kit to allow all of the advantages. I actually thought of going over 200mph and trying out the "standing mile". It's no good to just say, "my car can go over 200mph". It's on my list to actually go over 200mph and I look at the Roe as having advantages whenever moving and won't attempt a 200mph run until after the Roe kit is installed.

Ted

 

[dave6666]

All, to properly judge this, you have to realize that it won't "decrease" coolant temperatures, it can only minimize the "increase." If you have a 195 thermostat, it will help keep temperatures closer to 195; it can't reduce them below that.

Also, it only allows this benefit when the car is moving, since it provides a more advantageous opening to high pressure air.

At high speeds the air pressure normally would build up under the nose and create some lift. The opening under the fascia lets this air go through the radiator instead of under the car, so there is a dual benefit of better aero and better airflow through the radiator.

I didn't buy the Roe kit, but did make something like it myself. It's one of those clever, Dodge-should-of-done-it ideas. Actually Dodge did do it on other cars - I have a '97 Intrepid with the cut-out. Take a look at other street cars - many do have this already.

Thanks Tom. Like I earlier posted, this - the Roe Facia Kit -seems to almost rival the Vipair with technical discrepancies and debate. I think this discussion is the best thing going for this mod, and well, maybe Sean's efforts to improve the Viper.

I still plan on asking him if he can describe the data supporting the technical basis for the mod. Wind tunnel, aerodynamicist, common sense...

 

[REDSLED]

Thanks Tom. Like I earlier posted, this - the Roe Facia Kit -seems to almost rival the Vipair with technical discrepancies and debate. I think this discussion is the best thing going for this mod, and well, maybe Sean's efforts to improve the Viper.

I still plan on asking him if he can describe the data supporting the technical basis for the mod. Wind tunnel, aerodynamicist, common sense...

Wind tunnel? Aerodynamacist? Give me a break, how about real world info instead of the info that is vacuum packed by posters here who are too afraid to say they spent good money on bad modifications. One does not need an aerodymacist or whomever that deals with air to know that moving air will always cool better than stagnant air. Duh? The Roe Kit is designed to move air to the radiator as the car is moving, plain and simple. If your your car is running hot or overheating during normal use, (stop & go traffic) then you have other issues going on and the kit isn't going to help you. (neither is a souped up aluminum radiator) I have used this Sean Roe kit on my Viper Days Western Championship 97 GTS as well as my current World Challenge GTS-R and have seen almost exact temps, and guess what folks, I use the STOCK RADIATOR!!!! I have purchased, in the past, the Fluidyne (china crap) and also the Ron Davis (very high US quality) and compared to the stock radiators and I didn't see any significant difference in temps. No matter what radiator, one needs air flow to make them work at their highest efficency. How can a 2 or 3 row radiator work better than stock unless there is more airflow getting to them? One doesn't need an "Aerodynamicist" to figure that one out. Sometimes "common sense" is your best bet. There are many that post that WOW!, their temps dropped 20 degrees by adding an aluminum radiator, well I call BS as "eyeing the Viper temp gauge" isn't good enough. I have tested this cooling issue with Vipers for the past 5 years on several of my cars and the same basic principle still applies, more air to the radiators= cooler temps. This kit or anything else that does the same thing will work if the car is moving and once installed is not noticeable unless you park your car on mirrors. I do not mean to offend anyone or any vendor on this site, but am only trying to give some real world experience with this issue. Good luck to all and their Viper cooling issues!

 

[Parisianviper]

No matter what radiator, one needs air flow to make them work at their highest efficency. How can a 2 or 3 row radiator work better than stock unless there is more airflow getting to them? One doesn't need an "Aerodynamicist" to figure that one out.)

If you increase the contact surface between the coolant and the air, you increase cooling with the same air flow. It's not aerodynamics, its thermodynamics.....
That's how a 3 row radiator can work better than a stock one, even with the car stopped.

 

[dave6666]

Wind tunnel? Aerodynamacist? Give me a break, how about real world info instead of the info that is vacuum packed by posters here who are too afraid to say they spent good money on bad modifications. One does not need an aerodymacist or whomever that deals with air to know that moving air will always cool better than stagnant air. Duh? The Roe Kit is designed to move air to the radiator as the car is moving, plain and simple. If your your car is running hot or overheating during normal use, (stop & go traffic) then you have other issues going on and the kit isn't going to help you. (neither is a souped up aluminum radiator) I have used this Sean Roe kit on my Viper Days Western Championship 97 GTS as well as my current World Challenge GTS-R and have seen almost exact temps, and guess what folks, I use the STOCK RADIATOR!!!! I have purchased, in the past, the Fluidyne (china crap) and also the Ron Davis (very high US quality) and compared to the stock radiators and I didn't see any significant difference in temps. No matter what radiator, one needs air flow to make them work at their highest efficency. How can a 2 or 3 row radiator work better than stock unless there is more airflow getting to them? One doesn't need an "Aerodynamicist" to figure that one out. Sometimes "common sense" is your best bet. There are many that post that WOW!, their temps dropped 20 degrees by adding an aluminum radiator, well I call BS as "eyeing the Viper temp gauge" isn't good enough. I have tested this cooling issue with Vipers for the past 5 years on several of my cars and the same basic principle still applies, more air to the radiators= cooler temps. This kit or anything else that does the same thing will work if the car is moving and once installed is not noticeable unless you park your car on mirrors. I do not mean to offend anyone or any vendor on this site, but am only trying to give some real world experience with this issue. Good luck to all and their Viper cooling issues!

Adjust your caffeine intake.

I would personally like to know how Sean came to the conclusion that air "stacks up" underneath the Viper. Yes, we don't need rocket scientists here, but if one chimes in, I'll certainly listen, and I bet others would too.

 

[GTS Dean]

I would personally like to know how Sean came to the conclusion that air "stacks up" underneath the Viper.

If you use the SEARCH function and look back around Season 2 of Viper GTS WC competition, you will find your answer.

 

[GTS Dean]

If you increase the contact surface between the coolant and the air, you increase cooling with the same air flow. It's not aerodynamics, its thermodynamics.....
That's how a 3 row radiator can work better than a stock one, even with the car stopped.

What you gain with more tubes is more water volume for heat transfer. In effect - a larger heat sink. If the other working "fluid" (air) isn't moving, more tube area won't help much. That's why a louvered hood improves engine cooling, as evidenced by the GTS-R and SRT designs.

When you are making big horsepower (generating more heat), or running in very hot, humid air, you will need more air flow and/or fins per inch of tube.

 

[ViperTony]

Adjust your caffeine intake.

I would personally like to know how Sean came to the conclusion that air "stacks up" underneath the Viper. Yes, we don't need rocket scientists here, but if one chimes in, I'll certainly listen, and I bet others would too.

Dave, keep up the good work. I would love to see the results after you've installed your T-stat and radiator. Are you also going to reprogram your PCM to turn the fans on sooner with the lower t-stat? For what its worth, I installed a vented cowl, lower t-stat and reprogrammed my PCM to turn the fan on sooner. My engine has been running cooler 15-20 degrees on average. I'd say the cowl alone helped reduce temps because the heat has a way to escape the engine bay now especially when sitting in traffic. If you'd like to try a vented cowl on your quest to a cooler engine, I can ship you a spare one for testing purposes.

 

[Purdue_Boiler_Viper]

I've only changed my thermostat (172) as part of my Roe install. The car runs about 10 degrees cooler in city driving as measured by the stock gauge. I also changed to the Roe PCM, and I don't know if it is programmed to run the fans at a lower temp. Anyone know?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Hmmm. Just to pick at nits, I don't think the radiator cares as much if it is humid, only if it is hot outside.

Greatly oversimplifying to the point of being picked on myself, you can approximate that heat transfer increases linearly with area (free convection), and increases with the square of speed (forced convection). However, there are a huge number of variables that matter in either case.

 

[dave6666]

I tried getting a hold of Sean today to ask him some questions, but he was on the dyno every time I called. I chatted with Dave for a bit, and he laughed that we are having so much fun discussing their product.

 

[Early93Viper]

I am set on buying this product. I would just like to know what to expect. My car is at great temp in normal driving. Never overheating, burbed properly, everythings great. But at the track (roadcourse) if it is over 80 degrees I will overheat sooner or later. Even with the heater on at some point in time I will have to cut a session short and pull in.

This gets pretty fing annoying. So will this be all I need to keep my temps in line or should there be more products I should look at?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[dave6666]

I am set on buying this product. I would just like to know what to expect. My car is at great temp in normal driving. Never overheating, burbed properly, everythings great. But at the track (roadcourse) if it is over 80 degrees I will overheat sooner or later. Even with the heater on at some point in time I will have to cut a session short and pull in.

This gets pretty fing annoying. So will this be all I need to keep my temps in line or should there be more products I should look at?

Thanks,
Dan

I'm doing the whole shebang. The RDR radiator, brand new OEM pump, Roe hoses, t-stat (have not decided on temp yet - 180 or 195). Heck, I'm even replacing the sending unit while the fluid's out!

I expect that if I keep the 195 t-stat I will not see any lower gauge temps than I have now. I will however not rise as much (or at all )when I get on it with all of the other stuff, esp the RDR radiator.

If I do the 180 t-stat, everything combined should give me a wholesale drop under all conditions.

Dan - do you have a factory cooling system? Also, when was the last time you had your facia off to CLEAN behind the radiator. I could have filled a large coffee can with all of the leaves, cig butts, cellophane wrappers...

 

[Early93Viper]

Dan - do you have a factory cooling system? Also, when was the last time you had your facia off to CLEAN behind the radiator. I could have filled a large coffee can with all of the leaves, cig butts, cellophane wrappers...

I do have a factory cooling system. I had the facia off about 2 years ago can't remember how dirty it was.

I plan on ordering this system tomorow from roe. Hopefully it is all I will need to have complete track days?

 

[01ACR/VIPER]

Definatly do the thermo.i changed mine to a stant over the counter 170deg.drained the system and replaced with half gallon of anti freeze and a bottle of red line water wetter.i live in the good ol`e state of fl.its a hot ***** at times.mine runs 170deg or lower while moving(even slow speeds).if stopped in trafic it will rise until the fan kicks in and stay at that temp.soon as i start moving air,you can watch the gauge drop back down.

 

[EllowViper]

When my H2O pump went out last year, I figured I could seek solutions to the temp problem at the same time. I looked at the ROE kit, researched T-stat options, looked at various radiator options, etc.etc. I opted at that time for the radiator solution since I felt enough air was getting to the facia, but not through enough radiator cooling surface at lower than highway speeds. With that said, I opted for the three core radiator vice the two core/stocker for the follwoing reasons as well:
1. THree core has more potential cooling area IF the air gets THROUGH the radiator. Three core does not have as good of airflow at higher speed...better optimized at lower speeds due to the amount of air that can/cannot get through. Fin design is a factor too.
2. Two core has better airflow THROUGH the radiator at all speeds, but does not have the surface area that the three core has. Ahh, a trade off decision.
3. My problem was not high temps at highway speeds. THe OEM radiator worked fine in this regard.
4. My concern was high temps in city/lower speed driving. The restricted airflow of the three core not a big concern since all the air at these speeds could get through the "bigger-wider" radiator.
5. The three core was the best "radiator" solution at that time. IF "airflow" would have been a concern, then possibly a two core/stock radiator with some airflow augmentation...aka the ROE kit (if it really augments the airflow). Sitting still or slowly moving through the Florida traffic, more heat exchange capability was what I needed since increasing airflow was not really a controllable variable. With the airflow being relatively stable, all I could influence was the efficiency of the system (more radiator surface area). Now my fan comes on and goes off very quickly...since the availalbe air being pulled through the radiator is removong so much more heat.

 

[dave6666]

Per my conversation with Sean this morning...

http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=606797

...he was adamant that with the facia kit and his 180 deg t-stat, the OEM radiator is more than enough. My RDR is bought and paid for, so sorry Sean, It's going in, but good advise for those not wanting to spend more than is needed.