Scan Tools for the Gen3 that monitor spark/knock??

[2quik6]

Hi, I have an '05 SRT10 truck with the Gen3 motor and is supercharged. I have been looking for any type of scan tool that will monitor the ignition spark knock/retard but can't seem to find anything that will do that which the truck owners have.
So I've come here to see if any of you use a scan tool which will monitor spark knock/retard which is very critical in a supercharged application on the Gen3 motors which do have a knock sensor under the intake.

I demo'd the DashDaq yesterday and it would not even pick up any data streams on the Chrysler setting, and only 30 streams in the generic setting, but spark knock was not one of them.

I've read someabout the standalone units, but they require drilling and tapping a hole, in which if you put it on the side of the block it wouldn't do mych good on a V10 to hear all or most of the cyliders.

Can be either a hand held scan tool or laptop software.
I have a ton of experience scanning and programming various GM vehicles, just never done a Dodge.
Thanks in advance
Rob

'05 SRT10 Supercharged

 

[plumcrazy]

i know doug levin has one he used on my car when he was tuning it. and i know MSD has one for our engines, just not sure where its mounted.

 

[fqberful]

Hi, I have an '05 SRT10 truck with the Gen3 motor and is supercharged. I have been looking for any type of scan tool that will monitor the ignition spark knock/retard but can't seem to find anything that will do that which the truck owners have.
So I've come here to see if any of you use a scan tool which will monitor spark knock/retard which is very critical in a supercharged application on the Gen3 motors which do have a knock sensor under the intake.

I demo'd the DashDaq yesterday and it would not even pick up any data streams on the Chrysler setting, and only 30 streams in the generic setting, but spark knock was not one of them.

I've read someabout the standalone units, but they require drilling and tapping a hole, in which if you put it on the side of the block it wouldn't do mych good on a V10 to hear all or most of the cyliders.

Can be either a hand held scan tool or laptop software.
I have a ton of experience scanning and programming various GM vehicles, just never done a Dodge.
Thanks in advance
Rob

'05 SRT10 Supercharged

Check out autotap. You'll need a fairly decent laptop but it can monitor almost any PID in real time and display multiple PID's simultaneously in a variety of formats. I use it a lot on my '04 Ram SRT10 and '06 Viper and it's even pretty useful on the '09 Challenger.

 

[2quik6]

Thanks, I have sent Autotap a message to see if either of their products capture the spark knock/retard for my year vehicle.
Does the version you are using capture that specific data stream?
If so is it the AutoTap or AutoTap DIY Express?

The MSD standalone unit requires a bore and tap of the block, since the '05 has a knock sensor already, I don't want to go that route.

 

[kllymartin]

IIRC correctly, only the '05-'06 cars have knock sensors...not the Gen 3, '03-'04. Not sure if the trucks followd suit.
I recently had 2 knock sensors added to my TT '04 for the AEM to monitor.

 

[bigmack339]

OTC nemysis.

 

[Steve-Indy]

On CAN bus cars, wiTECH monitors above...I know nothing about the trucks.

I suspect DRB III does this as well on the non-CAN bus Vipers (pre-2008)...but, I can't check same as my Gen III Viper is a 2003 without knock sensors. If I stumble across a 2005-6, I'll let you know.

 

[2quik6]

IIRC correctly, only the '05-'06 cars have knock sensors...not the Gen 3, '03-'04. Not sure if the trucks followd suit.
I recently had 2 knock sensors added to my TT '04 for the AEM to monitor.

I thought the Gen3 engines were from 2003-2006 and 4th was 2008-2010 ??
The truck does have a knock sensor under the intake, the 2005 models do at least so I assume they utilize the same PCM as the cars, just different tuning for a 5600lb truck.
Even the tuners I've inquired to either just listen for knock or try to deduce it from the commanded spark reading on the scan tool and if it drops off inadvertantly they assume its knock. This is a horrible way to detect knock IMO on a application with a power adder, if you can hear it, thats about 10X more knock than a motor can tolerate, if you can't hear it and its still there, then the bearings will be creamed little by little.

 

[kllymartin]

I thought the Gen3 engines were from 2003-2006 and 4th was 2008-2010 ??
The truck does have a knock sensor under the intake, the 2005 models do at least so I assume they utilize the same PCM as the cars, just different tuning for a 5600lb truck.
Even the tuners I've inquired to either just listen for knock or try to deduce it from the commanded spark reading on the scan tool and if it drops off inadvertantly they assume its knock. This is a horrible way to detect knock IMO on a application with a power adder, if you can hear it, thats about 10X more knock than a motor can tolerate, if you can't hear it and its still there, then the bearings will be creamed little by little.

You are correct...'03-'06 are Gen 3. But IIRC, only the '05-'06 had (1) knock sensor. That's why my tuner insisted on adding (2) sensors for my TT application.

 

[2quik6]

On CAN bus cars, wiTECH monitors above...I know nothing about the trucks.

I suspect DRB III does this as well on the non-CAN bus Vipers (pre-2008)...but, I can't check same as my Gen III Viper is a 2003 without knock sensors. If I stumble across a 2005-6, I'll let you know.

What does all this mean Steve.. non-CAN, DRB III?

Autotap responded to my question saying that neither of their products can display spark/knock for my vehicle

 

[Steve-Indy]

Sorry, just pointing out the need for different "Chrysler" scan tools for different years of Vipers...can indeed be confusing.

I can read knock sensors, spark advance on our CAN bus cars with a wiTECH...looked at oir 06 Jeep 5.7 Hemi last PM before posting to be sure(and I expect same on our 08 and 10 Vipers, but did not try it). None of our other Vipers have knock sensors, but I would guess that one would need a DRB III to read anything on a 05-06. A StarSCAN or StarMOBILE may do it as well but I don't have these two tools.

 

[Canyon707]

you may want to look at PLXdevices .com

 

[Magnus_]

I think hptuners.com will be adding it shortly for gen3 vehicles.

 

[Tiago]

I think hptuners.com will be adding it shortly for gen3 vehicles.

does it support the PCM already!?!

 

[Steve-Indy]

General advice: MANY companies out there MARKET devices that come with CLAIMS as to their capability with "All" or "Most"..."Chrysler products". BEWARE...as some DO NOT work on all Vipers, others do not work on ANY Viper, while some work just fine. In my opinion solid firms will gladly prove their product to you...and/or, happily refund your money if the product fails to perform on a Viper as long as YOU make this clear up front.

 

[Viper Specialty]

You are correct...'03-'06 are Gen 3. But IIRC, only the '05-'06 had (1) knock sensor. That's why my tuner insisted on adding (2) sensors for my TT application.

05-06 SRT-10 Viper/Rams [and all Gen-4's] have TWO knock sensors. This was a mid-production addition, and will not be found on 03-04 cars.

 

[2quik6]

05-06 SRT-10 Viper/Rams [and all Gen-4's] have TWO knock sensors. This was a mid-production addition, and will not be found on 03-04 cars.

So is the 05-06 Viper/Rams engine not exactly the same as the Viper '05-'06 engines??

 

[2quik6]

Sorry, just pointing out the need for different "Chrysler" scan tools for different years of Vipers...can indeed be confusing.

I can read knock sensors, spark advance on our CAN bus cars with a wiTECH...looked at oir 06 Jeep 5.7 Hemi last PM before posting to be sure(and I expect same on our 08 and 10 Vipers, but did not try it). None of our other Vipers have knock sensors, but I would guess that one would need a DRB III to read anything on a 05-06. A StarSCAN or StarMOBILE may do it as well but I don't have these two tools.

Ok, I found a list of pre-2008 vehicles which have the CAN bus, none of the Viper powered vehicles do..so...
I was hoping to find a scanner for the individual enthuiast for a few hundred bucks like I have for my other vehicles rather than a $4k+ shop scanner..but I guess that is cheaper than rebuilding the motor
The PLX and hp devices won't work on these either at the current time like all the others, they can read the generic streams and thats it.

 

[Viper Specialty]

So is the 05-06 Viper/Rams engine not exactly the same as the Viper '05-'06 engines??

The engine, yes. They do however use different oil pans, and different exhaust manifolds, slightly different transmissions, etc. On that note, the Automatic Ram SRT's engine is also slightly different with regard to the bell housing mounting bosses.

 

[Magnus_]

The gen3's use ISO and SCI protocols, no CAN available.

Most SAE scanners will do ISO no prob, but its EXTREMELY slow. Basically, its not useful as a performance scan tool on these vehicles. It is useful for reading trouble codes, etc.

You need a scan tool that can scan on the dodge proprietary SCI bus. There aren't many out there that can do it, as it requires much more R&D than just using SAE protocols on the ISO bus.

 

[2quik6]

Thanks for the info Dan and Magnus. Very good info to know about the SAE scanners too if someone was to pay that kind of $$ for one. Be kind of bordline if the update rate would be a huge factor for the knock/retard since most PCMs will apply that spark retard rate for a few seconds before it returns it back to the full spark. I did find a guy that was using a ScanStar to decode the protocols to make a laptop scan tool for the 300C..now if someone with the technical skills could do that for these motors

As far as the engines go, I'm assuming the PCM is the same across the '05-06 Viper trucks and cars, just the tuning tables would be different for the 5600lb truck and auto tranny in the quad cabs.

 

[vprtech]

Thanks for the info Dan and Magnus. Very good info to know about the SAE scanners too if someone was to pay that kind of $$ for one. Be kind of bordline if the update rate would be a huge factor for the knock/retard since most PCMs will apply that spark retard rate for a few seconds before it returns it back to the full spark. I did find a guy that was using a ScanStar to decode the protocols to make a laptop scan tool for the 300C..now if someone with the technical skills could do that for these motors

As far as the engines go, I'm assuming the PCM is the same across the '05-06 Viper trucks and cars, just the tuning tables would be different for the 5600lb truck and auto tranny in the quad cabs.

Good data logging tools that support the pre NGC J2190 SCI ecus are, from what I have found, non-existent. There are several tool manufactures that use the SCI protocol, and can access the PIDs you need, the problem is, the update rate is so slow, that the data they provide is almost useless. Some tools only poll five to six bytes a second. That means if you try to log two one byte pids, you are only going to get around three updates per second. I've done quite a bit of work in this area (ie have my own high speed SCI logging tool), and the issue is not the ecu , it's with the scan tool / logging interface. The SCI protocol logging mode sends data "byte by byte" . In other words, unlike your USB port which is designed to, and excels at sending large packets of data, the Viper ecu needs to be asked for each byte of data, separately. The good news is that the ecu responds very fast to this request, less than half a millisecond. The bad news is that USB protocols don't deal well with handling individual bytes of data in the tight time intervals that are required for good data rates.

HP Tuners makes a great tuning interface, it may be hard to say when they are going to release a tool for our vehicles, from what's been said on their from, they need to roll out support for the later Chrysler ecu's first. I will say, if you can get by with generic OBD2, and have HP Tuners already, get the 2.23 beta, it will work on the GEN3 Vipers, and the data rate is the best I've seen with a generic tool.

- Chris

DC Performance: Proven Performance

 

[Steve-Indy]

Excellent post, vprtech...quite clear.

I think the main problem is that many (rookies and amateurs) see the DLC ("OBD II port") and think...."gateway to all mysteries of tuning", fotgetting to note that the "D" in "OBD" stands for "diagnostics"...and is not a "T" for "tuning" due to the design properties of said systems and protocols as you have stated above. A "port" is a poor substitute for lack of core product knowledge...though I personally enjoy plugging in anyway!! Real Viper Techs exist for a reason!!

For those of us satisfied with sitting in our own garages and checking occasional codes, doing a few minor maintenance procedures, as well as a little system "snooping"... the factory type tools are fine, though a little expensive.

This is a far cry from actual "tuning'' for increased performance...a task I'll gladly leave to "the Pros".

Having had the opportunity to sponsor several semesters worth of student electrical and computer engineer teams working on a Viper related project as part of a required "senior elective" at the Purdue department in Indy, I gained first hand experience in just how complex this area can be...and easily saw the problem with attempting to draw all knowledge through the DLC with the inexpensive aftermarket alternatives.

Hopefully, your "product" will become available...thus expanding the knowledge base and tuning possibilities even more for the many enthusiasts in the Viper Nation.

 

[2quik6]

Excellent info Chris! Why is it the protocol they use on these is so slow, or better yet why did Chrysler even use such a protocol? I've scanned a large variety of newer vehicles with a variety of laptop software through the ALDL and get around 18 frames a second refresh on them. Back in the days 20 years ago the rates were slow on the ALDL on the Buick Grand Nationals, I think it got about 4 frames a second, a product was introduced that required to you take the ECM apart, and on one end of the circuit board was a ribbon cable card plug, you carefully removed the laquer on the metal contact tabs, plugged a ribbon cable on to a piece of hardware that came with the software, plugged the cable from the hardware box into the printer port and viola, 18 frames a second!

I haven't even looked at the PCM on this, just got the vehicle last month, but I wonder if thats an option.