Should I stick with a Stock Thermostat?

Silver Snake

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I have some leaking around my thermostat and figured I need to replace the gasket. So, I will replace the thermostat as well.

Any recommendations on replacement? Any reason not to stick with OEM?

Thanks!
 

robisaacs

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What about fan settings. Should those be lowered when replacing the thermostat? Is so what tuner are you using to do that?
 

jasontiff

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I had a lower one in my 1993 and eventually went back to stock. The car ran hot anyway and in the summer the lower thermostat would stay open constantly, heatsoaking the coolant. I eventually just went back to stock.

In my 1998 I'd be willing to guess it has a 170 in it because that's where the needle stays. As long as I'm moving the car regulates itself pretty well. No problems with that one.

If you haven't had problems with overheating, I wouldn't bother swapping it out for a lower one. If it ain't broke...?
 

Tom F&L GoR

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If you haven't had problems with overheating, I wouldn't bother swapping it out for a lower one. If it ain't broke...?

If it is overheating, a lower thermostat won't help. Open is open. The same radiator is radiating. The same coolant is cooling. I think all you are doing is fooling the ECU to run a little richer, which may be more power (really?) or different driveability characteristics and potentially hindering the oil from warming up enough to boil off any fuel or water that got into it.
 

J&R3xV10

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A 170 t-stat is on the top of my very short mods list for every V10 I have owned with exception to the gen 4 for obvious reason
 

AZTVR

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If it is overheating, a lower thermostat won't help. Open is open. The same radiator is radiating. The same coolant is cooling. I think all you are doing is fooling the ECU to run a little richer, which may be more power (really?) or different driveability characteristics and potentially hindering the oil from warming up enough to boil off any fuel or water that got into it.

A 170 t-stat is on the top of my very short mods list for every V10 I have owned with exception to the gen 4 for obvious reason

I always thought what Tom states was the real situation with a lower temperature thermostat.

If so, why do people buy the lower thermostat? Does it actually help them or is it just a placebo effect? Do the successful ones do the thermostat plus some other thing like burping the system, or new cap, which ends up being the actual cause of an improvement?
 

hemihead

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If you think you're running too hot you should buy a hotter T-stat. Like Tom said open is open, if you can keep the T stat closed longer the coolent will stray in radiator cooling off just a little longer and you'll introduce cooler coolent to the engine when the T-stat opens.
 

Marv S

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If your Viper has an overheating problem - runs near 250 on track use - a t-stat with a lower operating temp rating than the stock one will not help the car run any cooler at all. It will increase the time it takes to reach the higher temp only because the stock one stays closed longer than the 170.

If your Viper does not have a problem with running too hot the lower temp t-stat will cause the car to run cooler when you are driving 80 mph in 6th gear (a fairly low rpm) than if it had a stock t-stat because the stock one will close at that speed and gear and thus maintain a higher coolant temp but the lower one will stay open and result in a lower temp.

But as soon as you get in stop and go driving, or downshift and run the car at say, 2500 rpm, both t-stats will remain open as the car will run hotter under those conditions.

The stock t-stat prevents the car from the larger temp swings you will observe with a 170 t-stat.

Here in AZ and driving on the freeway you can modulate the engine temp by changing gears. 4th gear with higher rpm the car runs hotter. Upshift to 6th gear and you can watch the temp decrease pretty quickly.

I always thought what Tom states was the real situation with a lower temperature thermostat.

If so, why do people buy the lower thermostat? Does it actually help them or is it just a placebo effect? Do the successful ones do the thermostat plus some other thing like burping the system, or new cap, which ends up being the actual cause of an improvement?
 

2000_Black_RT10

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Also drill a 1/8" hole in the new thermostat housing to help bleed air out of the system.. I did that when I changed from the old style thermostat to the new style years ago but never took pics, maybe there's some others who did the same that can be searched for some help / pics..
 

Tom F&L GoR

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My $0.02: Some of this is a carryover from when V8 blocks needed coolant to cross over the V under the carburetor through the intake manifold. That heated up the intake charge and a lower Tstat would increase the charge density. With early fuel injection, the system would think it was still warming up and run richer (certainly not lean) if the coolant temperature was low, so perhaps that helped run better. However, Viper intake manifolds do not come in contact with coolant, so a lower thermostat can't lower intake charge temps. Intake air is taken from outside the car, so again, should have no effect. Today's ECUs measure intake air temp and don't extrapolate from coolant temp, so I don't believe it runs richer or that timing is significantly different with lower coolant temperatures. So, unless someone has before and after data with only a thermostat change, I think all a lower thermostat does is lower the coolant temperature (under some conditions) and doesn't provide a performance change. As Marv pointed out, the temperature swings will be larger. And there is nothing bad for the engine to run at 212F.
 

dave6666

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Got to agree that a 170 does not cool the engine any faster. If the car runs at 190 with a 180 stat, it will run at 190 with a 170 stat too.

I see the same mentality on AC thermostats in the offices around here. People will walk in - the AC is already running - and they'll flip the lever all the way over to 50. Are they thinking that's a performance improvement? That the AC will now double it's output?

Just like the AC system has what it has, so does your cooling system. If you're going to lower the stat temp, also make complimentary changes to your cooling system to utilize that lower stat.
 

AZTVR

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Also drill a 1/8" hole in the new thermostat housing to help bleed air out of the system.. I did that when I changed from the old style thermostat to the new style years ago but never took pics, maybe there's some others who did the same that can be searched for some help / pics..

Not to be overly picky; but, you might want to edit that for some future novice reading this thread. I think that you meant that you drilled a 1/8" hole in the flange of the thermostat to allow air and some fluid to pass through when the thermostat is closed. I have done that on an old TR3 with improved cooling performance resulting.

I don't think that you meant that you drilled a hole in the aluminum thermostat housing itself, and installed a plug or something?
 

2000_Black_RT10

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Not to be overly picky; but, you might want to edit that for some future novice reading this thread. I think that you meant that you drilled a 1/8" hole in the flange of the thermostat to allow air and some fluid to pass through when the thermostat is closed. I have done that on an old TR3 with improved cooling performance resulting.

I don't think that you meant that you drilled a hole in the aluminum thermostat housing itself, and installed a plug or something?

That's ok..

If you look at a thermostat, it is comprised of multiple parts. The outer body, would be considered a housing. In design and engineering, an assembly which contains multiple parts, and is ecapsulated in an outer shell, this outer shell is typically called a housing. I understand the point, hopefuly others do.

It's not the flange which would be drilled on a Viper thermostat either. They are a bit different that the conventional automotive thermostat. i.e image from Roe Racing..

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This is quite a bit different than a TR3 thermostat..

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AZTVR

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That's ok..

If you look at a thermostat, it is comprised of multiple parts. The outer body, would be considered a housing. In design and engineering, an assembly which contains multiple parts, and is ecapsulated in an outer shell, this outer shell is typically called a housing. I understand the point, hopefuly others do. It's not the flange which would be drilled on a Viper thermostat either.


:confused: My bad !! I knew that you couldn't be talking about the housing that the thermostat is in. Maybe we're talking about drilling the hole in the same place; I just didn't know what to call it.
 

Marv S

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Drilling a couple of holes in these goes way, way back. It's done for steam or airpocket venting. To allow some flow when the t-stat is closed and to prevent air bubbles from forming. There's a reason the "speed bleeders" keep letting a bit of air out every month.

A much longer line of input I heard once was so there is always water running to the radiator which helps break up any trapped air inside the t-stat housing. The way the system works it that while at startup and lower temps the water does move. It flows constantly through the engine and circulates around and around. Not until the temp rises to 195 does the t-stat begin to open up, and as it opens, it restricts bypass flow and opens radiator flow. At 220 degrees the radiator is receiving 100% water flow and the bypass recirculator is cut off completely. It is during the warmup stage that water flow to the radiator is critical. If the viper is driven hard while the engine is cold; hard suction from the pump and lower hose will cause a draw of air into the system because the thermostat is not open. Meaning, the back side of the upper hose is trying to **** water from the t-stat housing but it can't. Therefore it tries to pull from the overflow bottle. If your level is low there, it will **** air and ingest this into the cooling system. How do you solve? Drill a couple of small holes into your t-stat to allow fluid movement to the radiator at all times. This will eliminate the suction to the surge tank and keep the engine fully primed at all times with fluid and not air. The surge tank will still have its function as a reservoir for fluid expansion when you shut the engine down. When the thermostat opens completely and the draw of water is needed, it can still overcome the cap pressure and pull fluid vaccuum from the surge tank.

ok..here's my little trick....take the sean roe thermostat look at it carefully..and determine where it moves in the housing when it opens and closes...it's jus above the brass ring about 1/8 inch...take and drill 2 holes 3/16 size in oppposite sides of the t-stat....i've found this equalizes the pressure and the car runs cooler...i've done about 7 cars this way as a test and it really works...never gets above the second mark at the top in the middle and it usually runs around 170-180 going down the road...even here in tx.............jus my 2 cents.........Len
 

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We recommend using the stock 185* SRT-10 thermostat in the Gen-2's, and leaving the thermostat in Gen-3/4's alone. 170 IMHO is too cold, both for condensation and computer program issues.

As pointed out above, the thermostat itself wont do much, it only determines the lowest temp that the engine can reach. A new fan program routine is needed via an SCT computer reflash. If you need an SCT program for your fan, let me know.
 

AZTVR

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It's not the flange which would be drilled on a Viper thermostat either. They are a bit different that the conventional automotive thermostat. i.e image from Roe Racing..

This is quite a bit different than a TR3 thermostat..

Shows how out-of-date I am ! Thanks for the photos ! Now, we just need a photo of where to drill the hole(s).

We recommend using the stock 185* SRT-10 thermostat in the Gen-2's, and leaving the thermostat in Gen-3/4's alone.

Do the majority of established Viper tuners / techs, recommend drilling the thermostat ? I know that has been a traditional solution; but, what worked in one system doesn't always translate to others. It sounds like some folks have gotten positive results on the Viper.
 

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Shows how out-of-date I am ! Thanks for the photos ! Now, we just need a photo of where to drill the hole(s).



Do the majority of established Viper tuners / techs, recommend drilling the thermostat ? I know that has been a traditional solution; but, what worked in one system doesn't always translate to others. It sounds like some folks have gotten positive results on the Viper.

Drilling it wont hurt anything. SRT's of course are designed differently and would not benefit from this, but the Gen-2's definitely can have issues. Personally, I would take the alternate approach and connect the 1/8 pipe plug on top of the T-Stat to the underhood coolant bottle, and just make the thing bleed itself constantly like the SRT-10 system does. Problem solved.
 

Tom F&L GoR

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Drilling it wont hurt anything. SRT's of course are designed differently and would not benefit from this, but the Gen-2's definitely can have issues. Personally, I would take the alternate approach and connect the 1/8 pipe plug on top of the T-Stat to the underhood coolant bottle, and just make the thing bleed itself constantly like the SRT-10 system does. Problem solved.

Thanks, Dan. For my Gen 1, maybe I'll go from the heater core hose to the reservoir, since I already have a schrader valve plumbed in there.
 

Vic

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The only thing I noticed, when I put my 170 T-stat in, was a new, annoying, REALLY LONG warm up time. The lower temp 170 T-stat opens at a lower temperature, so the coolant starts flowing between the block and radiator at a lower temperature, which now means that the engine takes longer to reach full warm up, since you have to heat ALL the coolant now, and that has to occur while while its flowing through a cooling device, namely the radiator, as opposed to just warming the coolant in the block before full circulation starts. THis stretches out the warm up time dramatically. Yes, i'm a nut who likes all the internal engine parts to be in a relatively stablized state of thermal expansion, before I put a load on the engine.

Under heavy load conditions, (when you got your foot in it, stop and go, hot days, tracking in sunny climates), the T stat is generally OPEN, regardless, and there is no difference between the two.

A 190 T stat maintains the engine at a higher temperature, during light load or cold conditions. In So Cal, Id bet that usually, its open, and the coolant circulates through the radiator during most of the driving cycle. If and when the coolant temperature drops to about 190, it closes. Thats the way to think about it, the rating is the temperature at which it closes, IF its in a cooling phase, IF the conditions warrant. The coolant is then restricted to the block only. This temporarily reduces the effectiveness of the cooling system, maintaining a higher average engine temperature. As the engine heats up, it opens again, allowing coolant once again to flow through the radiator. A higher temperature T stat maintains higher engine temperatures this way. It wont allow the engine to cool too much, under light loads or cold conditions. I think thats good for low emissions, and figures in when they design for smog certification.

A 170 T stat allows the engine to swing down to a lower temperature, under light load or cold conditions, since it doesnt close the flow to the radiator until the coolant has reached the lower temperature of 170. Once the engine begins to heat up, it opens again, allowing cololant once again to flow through the radiator. NO extra capacity of the cooling system is granted by a 170 T stat, strictly speaking. It only lowers the temp at which the coolant is restricted to the block, and allows for wider temperature swings during the right conditions, as Marv mentioned. The radiators' ability to dissipate BTUs into the atmosphere is completely unaffected. A 170 degree T stat will not help, if you are overheating in a steady state of load and ambient temperature. It does not add any cooling ability to your car, per se. But thats not the whole story!

Here's where a 170 T stat can make a difference, under the right conditions. Consider the situation, where you are alternating between light load, and heavy load, (you pass some cars with vengence, then settle down for a bit, then you're back on it again). During a cooling phase, (if conditions allow such) the lower temp T stat would allow the coolant to reach that lower rated temperature of 170 before closing, allowing the engine to cool more, giving it more room to absorb that much more heat on its way back up, during a subsequent heating phase. You gain 20 degrees of heat "soakability", which is then dissipated by the radiator in the normal way. As long as there is a cooling phase following, there will be this range of ability to dissipate heat. Yes, open is still open, the coolant is still the coolant, the radiator doesnt get any bigger, nothing changes in that regard, 170 vs 190,.... but ..... you gain those 20 degrees of "ramp up room". The 190 allows say, 60 degrees of heat soak until 250 (arbitrarily chosen freak out temp) where the 170, under intermittant load conditions only, allows 80 degrees of heat soakability before 250 is reached, when its time to be concerned. Before someone feels compelled to state the obvious, no, this makes no difference under continuous heavy load conditions, like track use. At that time, either a 170 or a 190 thermostat will be open, and the cooling system will be extracting its maximum amount of BTUs from the engine by viture of its design, regardless of T stat rating, because as Tom said, "open is open".

Intermittant load use is the only time I could see any advantage to a 170 T stat, here in generally hot So Cal. Unless you drive at night? But then you dont need the extra heat soak margin, because of the lower ambient temps.

Here in sunny So Cal, I'd be surprised if the T-stat ever closes at all during regular driving, once it has opened. So, during my particular driving cycle, if it opens only once during the inital wamup, but then never closes again, whats the point? Might as well not have a T stat at all, just let the coolant circulate continuously, under all conditions. Its not like the engine is going to freeze to death. If anything, its always hot. Just open the hood after a long drive, feel that huge wave of heat, and you get the picture. Its not like it regulates the temperature to the 170 degree value, thats only the temp that it opens up at during a cooling phase, under light loads or cold temperatures. A lower temp T-stat may not make any difference here, in our fairly hot driving conditions, but I havent done any study of it yet. THis is the first time I have considered the subject, just shooting from the hip.

During a cooling phase, if conditions allow, my 170 T stat allows the engine to cool to that lower temperature, before it closes, and restricts the coolant flow to within the block only. The effect would exhibit itself by the temp gauge needle swinging way down towards the left side of the dial, before it closes, and then the temp would rise again, until the cooling system has bled off the heat again. Since I almost never cruise under low load conditions, or in lower ambient temperatures, I dont think this scenario applies in my case. But Im not entirely sure, since I dont generally watch my gauge intently, unless I'm on the track. If its pointing something like straight up, thats ok with me! (Im referring the gauge needle) I'd be surprised if T stats ever close in So Cal. But if they do, then a 170 would allow more ramp up room. It deserves further investigation.

Any other thoughts on the issue?
 
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1. You cannot simply remove a thermostat. To do so will not put ANY particular ratio on coolant flow since some will circulate through the radiator, and some will not. In the end, you will likely just overheat the engine, as in a full load condition, you will NOT be flowing all the coolant through the radiator like you would be with any thermostat.

2. You do not want to be running at full load on a cold engine, and having a thermostat that is far too cold will certainly allow this under the right condition. Think of all the condensation you will be putting into your oil if you ever travel a distance in 5th/6th gear, and the fact that you will be running an aluminum block engine, which like to be warm before use, at 40-60 degrees below target temperature.

3. The engine's computer system will NOT correctly adapt, and this can cause problems and check engine lights on cars if it sees the engine never warms up. This is not just a passive warning, it changes the way the engine runs!

4. There is NO long-term gain by going to a lower T-Stat other than the matter of seconds that you gain in the "heat soak" envelope. The difference in power is negligible, and will eventually soak the manifold over time anyway. If your cooling system cannot keep up in the long term, it WILL still fail when you need the cooling capacity the most, and the car will still run hot. The only thing a Thermostat does is dictate the engine temp floor, which should be targeted at roughly 200 degrees when accounting for semi-loaded conditions. When changing a thermostat, the reasoning should be for better temp control in relation to computer programs and fan routines for a particular engine type and material. Look at fans, radiators and aero/underhood flow issues if the car is REALLY running hot. The Gen-2's have ridiculous fan routines, and allow a lot of heat soaking to occur. Fix the problem the right way, and you wont have issues.
 

dave6666

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To lower temps I got the Ron Davis Rad. and the Roe duct , those two mods worked wonders..........

Then you probably had a plugged factory or whatever radiator that you pulled out. I've used the RDR, am currently using a Roe 3 pass, and none do any better than the stock radiator does.

Curious... Do both those mods work wonders stuck in August traffic at 110 deg ambient?
 

SquadX

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When i did the 170 thermostat, my car ran alot cooler at WOT and never creeped pass 210. Before it would damn near redline (would throw it in 5th to cool it down). My original was working fine when removed. Car had 30k miles on it.
But I agree, get the fan upgrade and/or SCT tune, which can be programmed to run the fan at a lower temp.
 

dave6666

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Most cars don't have cooling issues at WOT. Even in the 110 degree Texas summers.

If you want to impress me with how good your cooling system is working then reference how it does in 110 degree ambient stuck in traffic.

BTW, this is what the asphalt temp is at the end of my driveway during August.

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