Should the Viper ever have Traction control and/ or any other Gadgets?

[Early93Viper]

From reading posts here I think that I am the only one who feels this way: I don’t think the Viper should ever offer Traction Control or other gadgets. I feel it the Viper is a minimalist car that should adhere to its purity. What makes the Viper great IMO is not its ¼ mile times but how special it is to have such a pure car in this day and age. Car companies are putting so much crap in the cars; giving more and more control to a computer. You can’t even turn off some of the crap on some cars unless you fool the computer.

My nightmare would be an automatic, TC infested, computer driven, and gadget happy Viper. This would be the death of one of the best cars ever made IMHO.

 

[Brian E]

My vote is YES for traction control.
Its not just for 1/4 mile times.
The horsepower and handling junkies know why its a good thing!!!
My Dad is one of those guys who think that the only true sports car is his 67 Vette with a 427, 435 h.p. tripower. (he has had this car since 1967)
He uses the same argument that sports cars should be minimalistic in nature and not have all those so called electronic gadgets.
The big problem with adhering to this philosophy is that you end up with a situation like the one that lets my wife's 245 h.p. Japanese grocery getter smoke his Vette up to 60 mph. Believe me I have done it.
I heard the same complaint years ago, when in 1981, GM installed a computer in the Corvette.
A guy named John Lingenfelter was a pioneer in using electronic controls to build monster h.p. engines for the Corvette. He could have never built these street driven motors without computer controlled engine management.
Technological change is good. We as enthusiasts just have to be prudent in what we want.
Defeatable Traction Control YES!!! (thanks ledfoot)
Heated seats NO!!!
My .02
Enough said.

 

[ledfoot]

defeatable traction control...yes

Cruise control, power seats,fuzzy dice..No

 

[Early93Viper]

My vote is YES for traction control.
Its not just for 1/4 mile times.
The horsepower and handling junkies know why its a good thing!!!
My Dad is one of those guys who think that the only true sports car is his 67 Vette with a 427, 435 h.p. tripower. (he has had this car since 1967)
He uses the same argument that sports cars should be minimalistic in nature and not have all those so called electronic gadgets.
The big problem with adhering to this philosophy is that you end up with a situation like the one that lets my wife's 245 h.p. Japanese grocery getter smoke his Vette up to 60 mph. Believe me I have done it.
I heard the same complaint years ago, when in 1981, GM installed a computer in the Corvette.
A guy named John Lingenfelter was a pioneer in using electronic controls to build monster h.p. engines for the Corvette. He could have never built these street driven motors without computer controlled engine management.
Technological change is good. We as enthusiasts just have to be prudent in what we want.
Defeatable Traction Control YES!!! (thanks ledfoot)
Heated seats NO!!!
My .02
Enough said.

Traction Control hurts 1/4 mile times and lap times. (If a good driver is driving.) It's main use is to keep you in control during street use. Although I agree with you on Computer controlled engine management systems.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Traction control and other crap.. NO That's what your right foot is for.

If it is entirely 100% defeatable OK MAYBE for when you get caught in the rain but just Trac, no YAW control whatsoever.

 

[David]

Sure -- and add another cup-holder while you're at it...

 

[sal3coach]

One good cupholder is all I would ever ask to have changed -- except more HP and better tires and ...

 

[Viperized]

Obviously there is a controversy on the desirability of traction control. I would like to pose a question. Should Dodge remove ABS? It is also an electronic helping device which dilutes the purity of the driving machine. I havnt seen any comments on this. I think its horrible that this car would have a device that would allow drivers with bad judgement to get away with poor braking technique. They should be allowed to slam into things until they go to driving school to learn to modulate their braking without crashing. I think all this technology should be eliminated. We should also use sliderules and outhouses.

 

[Cris]

No to ABS removal. ABS allows a much higher rear brake bias. Without it the braking performance would deteriorate due to much less braking at the rears.

 

[ledfoot]

Viperized...Just because you have a Nineteen year old girlfriend, doesn't mean you can start talkin ****.

 

[Viperized]

Couldnt front to rear brake bias be adjusted without ABS?

 

[TacDoc]

If the car is to be bare bones make the price reflect it. If it is going to be priced like it currently is then I think it should have defeatable electronics for those who choose to use them.

 

[trumper Z06]

Another vote for... Fuzzy Dice !!!

With the new Z06 on the way.... looks like the Viper's becoming a "Cruiser" !

 

[RavenFan_94]

Agreed with TacDoc and Ledfoot's first post.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Limit Traction control to ABS.

 

[Early93Viper]

Obviously there is a controversy on the desirability of traction control. I would like to pose a question. Should Dodge remove ABS? It is also an electronic helping device which dilutes the purity of the driving machine. I havnt seen any comments on this. I think its horrible that this car would have a device that would allow drivers with bad judgement to get away with poor braking technique. They should be allowed to slam into things until they go to driving school to learn to modulate their braking without crashing. I think all this technology should be eliminated. We should also use sliderules and outhouses.

I don't think they should take any driving aids off my fiancés Caviler . But I think a Viper is a little bit different. I believe that you should understand before you buy the car that it is a minimalist car. Bare bones a true sports car. It is the only car(new)out there that I can think of with this niche. That makes it very special in my eyes. I think we should keep it that way.

 

[madman]

No ABS, No traction control and No Fuel Injection! Make your foot work, not the stupid electronic! Back to the stone age, yeahh!

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Interesting to see that those that seem opposed are those that either:

A. Don't own an SRT-10 or

B. Don't own a Viper at all (and I am not talking about Craig)

Dan, I certainly wouldn't disagree with you per se, as you are probably the most enthusiastic Viper owner I have ever met. However, I would say that the Viper continues to evolve to varying degrees and not all of that is good. With the utmost respect to everybody posting here, how many 1/4 mile passes have you made in a Viper? While nowhere near many of the owners out there, I can truthfully say that I have made close to 200 at this point. If you read this forum with any regularity you know what a huge issue SRT owners have with traction - especially with the runflats that come with the car (and few, if any alternatives).

With all due respect, putting 400 horsepower to some nice Kumhos or drag radials would be a dream compared to trying to tame 500 horsepower with these stiff Michelins. And that is not to say it can't be done and that I (and many others) am not the one to do it. The point is that everybody is whining, crying, begging, and screaming for more horsepower - yet can barely control what they have now. Throw another 100 HP on the fire and you will get walked by Cadillacs as you sit there and spin on the runflats while they zip past with hardly a chirp. But hey, you have hair on your chest and they don't! The current C5 Z06 can keep up with an SRT pretty handily in many cases. Part of that is gearing and part of that is better control - specifically traction. While driver education/experience can possibly even that up a bit, even the most experienced Viper pilot will occasionally blow a launch when the heat is on.

The simple fact is that when the Viper was first launched there was no other "bare bones race car" for the streets. "Raw" was the Viper attraction and largely because it could walk just about anything that came it's way. Fast forward ten years later and the car (Gen II) has air bags, ABS, air conditioning, power windows, power mirrors, and even (gasp!) a CD player. Any complaints? Not a single peep. So the SRT-10 comes out with a removable ashtray - which just happens to look like a cupholder (and functions like a shallow hole where the ashtray should be). The Viper crowd goes crazy at this horrific bastardization of this RAW (air conditioned, power mirrored, ABS, power windowed, CD-equipped) muscle car. A poorly functioning cupholder - those WEASELS at DC have ruined everything the Viper stands for!

The simple fact is that for $85,000 you had better get more than just a NASCAR ride with windows. If "raw" is what the Viper is all about, then perhaps some folks (not Dan) would be better off buying a Shelby Cobra clone where they can have that raw car with more power and less weight for about the same money. Throw bias-ply tires on there if you really want to prove your mettle and eschew all modern conveniences.

Me? I want more horsepower and a way to deliver every one of them to the pavement if I so choose. And without having to spend another $8,000 on wheels/tires and then practice every single day on launching the car perfectly - or risk seeing somebody else's taillights. Switchable (on/off) traction control is a must as we clip the 500 HP mark. Gallardo, Modena, AMG, Panoz, Enzo, 911 Turbo, Z06, M3, M5, Koenigsegg - all offer standard traction control. Does it make their cars any "less" than the Viper?

It is one thing to claim bragging rights on how sparsely equipped your car is if it is for weight savings (ACR) or cost savings (Mustang). But to weigh in more than the guy with the same horsepower, plus ABS, traction control, navigation, and even heated power seats just seems silly these days. Especially when that guy is paying $20,000 LESS for his car. I don't want any of that besides the traction control. Heck, I am perfectly fine with no TC on my meager 500 HP car - just don't throw more at me without a better way to make use of it.

 

[Snakester]

Traction control is a safety feature like seatbelts, airbags, ABS, a rollbar, etc.
I think that as the Viper's HP climbs, it needs safeguards for extreme driving conditions that will be more easily attained.

Expert drivers who regularly race will have 5-point seatbelts, and know how to brake on wet roads, and control the car when driving at the limit.

But only a tiny handful of the people who can afford to buy a Viper are really experienced drivers. And expecting that the car can only be sold to expert drivers is naive.

Sure, the Viper has a reputation of being a "pure" race-designed car, and it's power and lack of plush luxuries will scare off most buyers who are not serious about driving fast.

But as the market heats up and the Viper gets even more powerful, it will become easier to get in trouble for a newbie driver.

And I'm perfectly willing to have a Viper with ABS, airbags, and defeatable traction control, as long as I get 600HP++ in the deal.

 

[ERDOC]

I think it should be offered with traction control, cruise control, stability control, side airbags etc...... but all as options. Dodge is not selling enough SRTs and by the looks of the coupe, it wont be selling too many of those either. Dodge should offer these options since it messed up the design and lost many of the Gen 2 faithfuls... it will have to appeal to a broader audience or alas the Viper will die. I would get all the above options because you never know when you have to make an emergency maneuver to save yourself from someone else. I'd rather have stability control, abs..... to save my a**. The majority of Viper owners are not trained race car drivers and sometimes we need all the help we can get.

 

[quick2tr]

I vote no for any assisted control. I want an accelerator pedal that opens the throttle when depressed. I want brake calipers that only apply pressure when the brake pedal is depressed.

 

[HiYoSilver]

Y2K5SRT,
I am in agreement with you; defeatable electronics to help handle any increased power is the right way to go.
Also real "rollbars" (that are truly functional) should replace the cosmetic sportbars.
Are you listening D-C ?

 

[jdavis]

Like it or not, Y2K5SRT is right on and I couldn't agree more. T/C, A/H, and ABS are almost necessities today for obvious safety reasons and potential legal issues. We are not error proof individuals and it only takes one experience with A/H or ABS to convince you of it's worth.
ERDOC perhaps has the right idea with the suggestion that electronic controls be made optional. That way everyone could be satisfied. I would venture to say that the vast majority of cars would be ordered with a full compliment of electronic controls.

 

[Fast Freddy]

while were at it lets put a woman driver in the seat. lmao!!! traction control is for girls. i permanently disabled the traction control on my Z06 thanx to lap traxx. people ask me what i like best about my viper and i tell them "it has 2 buttons in the whole damn car.......stop and go"

 

[Cris]

Couldnt front to rear brake bias be adjusted without ABS?

No, because the bias must prevent rear brake lock-up prior to front lock-up in all conditions. That means the normal bias is highly front wheel. ABS allows the bias to shift to about even front to rear and depends on the ABS system to prevent a rear lock-up condition.

I vote for ABS, traction control and even stability control as long as they can be completely eliminated when desired.

 

[sal3coach]

Careful FF, I don't know what Alice (HEMOTOX) would think about comments like that but my wife has had both pedals to the floor autocrossing the Viper and they both probably carry...

 

[kaval]

chris (y2k) got it completely right.

How are we supposed to contribute when you answer 1 and all follow-up questions within 1 reply?

 

[Early93Viper]

I am going to just say something crazy. Something that will probably get me banned from the Viper Club, the Viperclub.org, and the Alley. After word spreads (about my comments) when other Viper owners drive by me they will throw stuff at me.

I don’t think the Viper needs more Horse Power. There I said it. Flame suit on.

I think the money would be better spent on making the Viper a better car. Better tires, making the car lighter, finding ways to lower the center of gravity, etc., etc.

If this was done right it would let the Viper be:

1. Faster than the Z06 in the quarter
2. Faster than the Z06 around a road course.
3. Easier to control without resorting to Traction control.
4. Easier to justify putting more HP in her.

Don’t listen to Chris what does he know? He is old (84?) and senile and I am young (26) and smart. I think he can barely remember his own name. It’s sad.

Joking Chris is very young and a lot smarter than me.

And after all that is said let me now say Chris is right. Chris has a better plan for the car because it goes with what most people want out of the car. It probably can’t survive without the extra HP and the more refined, technology driven, driving manners. People want a car they can drive everyday to work. Even the Murci, Ferrari 430, ect. our trying to be everyday cars.

Hell if I was you and someone like Chris gave me one view on the Viper and someone like me gave you another I would have to listen to Chris’s view.

 

[kverges]

I see no reason not to have stability management, as long as it is truly defeatable. I have it in my Gallardo and turn it off on the track and sometimes on the street, but it does not make the car any less sporting (and it has no cupholders or cruise control, thank you). In fact, the car is a complete blast to play with the control on and off on track in the rain!

And (flame suit on) 99% of every Viper driver I know is not such a great driver that they could not benefit from stability management, especially in an emergency or bad traction situation. Those of you who think you are such hot drivers that you would never want or need stability management are actually the ones who are probably NOT that good.

 

[sal3coach]

I've driven the C5 Z06 on the track and tried it with Active handling in standard, Competitive driving and off. Must say it was nice to have the option -- there is a lot of difference in the 3 modes bur the Competitive mode lets you push it to the edge more than you would think. If they put it in, it does not have to change the character of the car--unless DC uses the Mercedes version--then we will all be shopping for older models.