So With 600HP In The 2008s, What The Heck Will A Supercharger Produce?

[mike & juli]

Are you two at it again?? Nader--did we see you at Lime Rock in June this year? ~juli

 

[DodgeViper01]

Okay lets compare -

Stock:

Not stock -

Questions? Yes my car in both. How do you like my garage?

Looked good then and great now.

 

[black mamba1]

Nader, I really like those wheels! Are they deep dish?

 

[Nader]

About a 3 inch lip in the rear. Just perfect for my taste. I was at Limerock. You didnt see me there?

 

[mike & juli]

About a 3 inch lip in the rear. Just perfect for my taste. I was at Limerock. You didnt see me there?

Yep, we did!!! Just checking to make sure it was you...I introduce ourselves to everyone, and don't think you were out of your vehicle to approach? We hate to bother people who are in their cars....well--nice to meetcha here anyway!!! WHAT a time at Lime Rock, huh?! ACRSteve just blew me away in his ACR. Hope to meet up with you at some point...maybe Chuck's Tech Session Oct. 13th at his place? Are you attending?
~juli

 

[Viper X]

If you lower the car, 18's work very well and look good to. This is what the comp coupes run.

 

[black mamba1]

1. Does going to the 18" wheel affect your speedometer and odometer?

2. How do you lower the Viper in this respect?

3. Nader, what does the Kumho-wheel package you have cost?

4. What kind of wheels are those and are they lighter than factory?

Nader I believe I remember seeing you, what number was on your Viper at Limerock?

 

[Nader]

They are Pirelli P-Zeros. They are lighter than stock. 12-15lbs in the rear alone. The rims are HRE 535Rs. I was number 4 at Limerock.

 

[black mamba1]

They are Pirelli P-Zeros. They are lighter than stock. 12-15lbs in the rear alone. The rims are HRE 535Rs. I was number 4 at Limerock.

ok, so now I am officially hi jacking the thread to discuss wheels and tires. An earlier thread said that Kumhos were the best tire, Nader you are running Pirelli P-Zeros. Which of the two tires are better? And again, how do you lower the Viper to offset the smaller wheel look?

 

[black mamba1]

ok, my wife voted against the HRE wheels. She said the stock Viper wheels are distinct and unique, whereas the HRE's are a design found on many vehicles, and not unique...like I said, its always something. So to stay unique, I cannot have the best tires....

 

[mike & juli]

They are Pirelli P-Zeros. They are lighter than stock. 12-15lbs in the rear alone. The rims are HRE 535Rs. I was number 4 at Limerock.

Personally, we LOVE the HRE wheels...they look great on your Mamba. Sorry we didn't meet all up in person at Lime Rock, there were only a handful of us Vipers there!!! Met everybody but you and wife/gf, Nader!!! To the next event, blackmamba too!!!
~juli

 

[Nader]

I have the plus 1 setup - 19s front and 20's rear. Not sure I understand your wifes comment since stock wheels are stock and every Viper has them. My set up is really unique both in size and look. Just set the viper off.

 

[mike & juli]

I have the plus 1 setup - 19s front and 20's rear. Not sure I understand your wifes comment since stock wheels are stock and every Viper has them. My set up is really unique both in size and look. Just set the viper off.

Your setup IS quite unique...beats the stock wheels/tires immensely. If we could, we'd get the same HRE wheels, same sizes as you did, 20's rear, 19's front. You have our ideal wheel/tire combo. Maybe someday~~~hope to see your car again and meet you officially, Nader! Will you be attending Chuck's Tech Session Oct. 13th? We plan to so far. Hope you also, BlackMamba and wife can attend as well. ~juli

 

[Wicked]

I know a lot of people are big fans of the Paxton. I am certainly not. I can write an entire book as to why not go with a Paxton. Keep the 08 NA and add the power that way instead of spending your money on a Supercharger. I think a TT car would be fine too, I just have no personal experience with it.

My 06 Viper with 666rwhp runs 129 traps after cooling down for an hour+. If I do another pass the MPH goes down to 128ish and after a few passes of the day I'm down to traping 126 and some change. Traps 10mph cold over stock with 220 more rwhp.

Don't hate, I'm also a member of the dark side. I also have a 07 Z06 putting down 502rwhp. On a day where the Density Altitude was 1,000 worse, then when I raced the Viper, I trapped 126-127 hot lapping. Traps about 4-5mph higher then stock with 50 more rwhp in simular conditions. For Reference the DA was 3,000 vs 2,000.

If both cars were to meet on the street, my Z06 would walk my Viper. Mainly because of gearing and the 7,000 rev limiter.

Now look at the 2008's. They are traping 1 more MPH then a stock Z06. Add the 75hp in mods that DC is going to have(figure 50rwhp) and watch out! I think DC did a really great job on this new motor and I'm excited to see what the aftermarket companies bring to the table. I really think the 08 is just going to be a beast!

Keep it NA though. Port the heads, bigger cam, etc..

Just my .02 cents. I know a lot of people are happy with their Paxtons and they should chime in to be fair. I'd like to hear from those that actually 1/4 mile race their cars though.

Jason

 

[Nader]

Wow I figured you would be running higher traps with that much power. What are the times of both cars?

 

[Wicked]

1.8 60's in both cars have netted me 11.20's in the Viper (fresh off the trailer or after a long cooldown) and 11.40's in the Z06. I still don't have any 2000 DA days to compare my Z06 to my Viper runs though. If I correct them down from 3000, they are identical in MPH, so with the same 60', I would be roughly the same in ET in both.

The only results I have the in Z06 in 2000 DA days like the Viper runs were when it was stock. Ran 11.7's@124, but that was only the 2nd day owning the car.

I'm a farily good driver too, and it's not like the Viper is just blowing the tires off. Plus, MPH should still reflect the HP better.

I'm pretty sure when I looked into others Paxton Viper 1/4 results that I am getting on the good end of what others have been seeing. Most said before I took delievery that I 'should' expect 11.4-11.5's.

The bad part is that a lot of Paxton owners don't track their cars, so there is really nobody to compare to.

Jason

 

[DodgeViper01]

Personally, we LOVE the HRE wheels...they look great on your Mamba. Sorry we didn't meet all up in person at Lime Rock, there were only a handful of us Vipers there!!! Met everybody but you and wife/gf, Nader!!! To the next event, blackmamba too!!!
~juli

HRE/I-Forged wheels are amazing!!!

 

[black mamba1]

1.8 60's in both cars have netted me 11.20's in the Viper (fresh off the trailer or after a long cooldown) and 11.40's in the Z06. I still don't have any 2000 DA days to compare my Z06 to my Viper runs though. If I correct them down from 3000, they are identical in MPH, so with the same 60', I would be roughly the same in ET in both.

The only results I have the in Z06 in 2000 DA days like the Viper runs were when it was stock. Ran 11.7's@124, but that was only the 2nd day owning the car.

I'm a farily good driver too, and it's not like the Viper is just blowing the tires off. Plus, MPH should still reflect the HP better.

I'm pretty sure when I looked into others Paxton Viper 1/4 results that I am getting on the good end of what others have been seeing. Most said before I took delievery that I 'should' expect 11.4-11.5's.

The bad part is that a lot of Paxton owners don't track their cars, so there is really nobody to compare to.

Jason

Most TT and s/c 1/4 mile times I see in the mags are high 11's even some 12's. I see NA cars w/ 690-725 fly wheel hp running 10.4-10.7's w/ stock rear ends. I also find that alot of Paxton owners do not track their cars...well, what the hell is the point? If Paxton owners dont track, then I assume they are interested most in street fights...which the NA cars win most of time b/c most street fights are over in a 1/4 to 1/3 of a mile.
Wicked, what if you switched to a 3:55 rear end? I have read that the 3:33 does nothing, the slight pickup is offset by additional wheel spin, but the 3:55 is a different story.

 

[Wicked]

Some people swear by gears, but I personally on all my cars have never really noticed much of a difference. ET's generally remain the same, but when going with a shorter gear you are going to get more wheelspin and make it even harder to come out of the hole.

About 10 years ago in a 500rwhp(Guessing) Firebird, I ran 11.19's@127 with a 3.42, 11.19's@126 with 3.73's and 11.19's@125 with 4.10's. My 60's went from 1.7's down to 1.6's.

So on the street, I'd much rather have the shorter gear as it will give me the same time or darn close to it and make it easier to launch.

And I'd agree with the numbers you list above. I'm doing a Head/Cam package on the Z06 that will bring power from 502rwhp/474rwt to 600rwhp/520rwt or there abouts. I fully expect the car to run 10.3-10.7's @ 134ish depending on the day and of course traction.

Jason

 

[black mamba1]

In 1988 I had a Vette (dont curse me) w/ the mildest rear end selection available. I would routinely beat Grand Nationals and Mustang GT's even after I modified the car w/ chip, exhaust, etc. Mostly I would jump them a half a car out of the hole b/c I never had and significant wheel spin even when launching at over 3500 rpm. Now, I came across a GNX that simply kicked the crap out of my Vette, but I roasted everything else.

Motor Trend has a Hennessey (again dont curse me) 2003 Viper Venom w/ a head/cam job putting down just under 600 rwhp naturally aspirated. The thing ran 10.76 ON STOCK RUN CRAPS!

Road & Track Sept 05:
Twin Turbo 1000 hp (flywheel) Viper 1/4 mile, 11.0 seconds at 145 mph

Road & Track Sept 07:
Twin Turbo 1100 hp (flywheel) Viper 1/4 mile, 11.7 seconds at 147 mph

2008 Dodge Viper road test
600 flywheel hp, 1/4 mile, 11.6-11.8 sec at 124-126 mph (several sources)

Motor Trend 2003 article (http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0312_2003_viper_srt10_venom_650r/

587 rwhp (690 flywheel) NA Viper 1/4 mile, 10.76 sec at 128.67 mph

The above data speaks for itself for MOST driving situations IMO. The NA cars are lighter, run cooler, get better gas mileage, are more reliable, sound better, and have higher re sale value...again, IMO

 

[black mamba1]

Looked good then and great now.

For the record I really like those HRE wheels, they look aggressive IMO. I took a survey in my office, half my employees liked the HRE's, half preferred the stock Viper wheels. But for those of us that are married...we know whose vote actually counts! Disobey...and look out!
So looks like I am staying w/ the stock wheels ....

 

[DSG2003SVT]

OK, I know that this is a stretch, but I think that I can give a valid opinion on the gear swap from personal experience.
Though not a Viper, my last FUN car was a 2003 Mustang Cobra. Don't worry, I'm not comparing that to a Viper, just discussing the gear topic as I drag raced my car a great deal. The stock gears were 3.55s in that car, and I ran consistent 12.20s with 425rwhp and BF Goodrich drag radials. I had a friend that made me a good deal on some brand new Ford Racing 3.73s. Since someone already wanted to buy my 3.55s and I could do the install myself, I figured that I was out less than $50 and a few hours of wrenching (which I don't mind in the first place), so what the hell?
After the gear swap and NOTHING ELSE, same track, same weather, I started running consistent 12.0s! One night after the car had cooled and the track was good and sticky, I ran 11.897! With the gear swap, the car came out of the hole much faster and without any hint of bogging. It also geared the car better for the back half of the track. Right as I crossed the line, I had just hit 6000 in 4th gear which is where I shifted in that car, so I was using every good gear to it's full potential.

Now, relating to the Viper, as far as the quarter, I don't know the particulars of how it needs to be geared to use the power that you have, but I do know what going one "step" lower in gearing did for my last car, so I can imagine what going two steps lower (3.07 - 3.33 - 3.55) could do for a Viper in the quarter after a little seat time and experimenting.

Sorry I was so long winded.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Some people think that with a lower rear gear you will get more wheel spin and go slower. The fact is that the lower gear will "recover" from wheel spin better (faster) without any bog that the taller gear may have. This is why they are faster. I know from my experience in my Cobra (can not afford a Viper) with only 273 RWHP my 0-60 times went from 5.0 with the 3.27 to 4.4 with the 3:55's. And the 60 foot times from 2.2 to 1.9 with autocross Kumhos. I would never go the other direction, but still go through this debate with people all the time. I know some people don't like to shift as much as it takes with the lower gear but that is half the fun for me.

 

[dave6666]

Some people think that with a lower rear gear you will get more wheel spin and go slower. The fact is that the lower gear will "recover" from wheel spin better (faster) without any bog that the taller gear may have. This is why they are faster. I know from my experience in my Cobra (can not afford a Viper) with only 273 RWHP my 0-60 times went from 5.0 with the 3.27 to 4.4 with the 3:55's. And the 60 foot times from 2.2 to 1.9 with autocross Kumhos. I would never go the other direction, but still go through this debate with people all the time. I know some people don't like to shift as much as it takes with the lower gear but that is half the fun for me.

No offense, but how useful are you experiences with a car with 273hp to a group that has no less than 400hp, and often way more?

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Well we have built many cars with and without superchargers (Vipers) and they all have better launch capability and recovery with the lower gears. I have just raced my car long enought to be able to tell you real world numbers on it.

No offense taken by the way, I think my cars 0-60 speaks pretty well for the under powered. ;-)

 

[valentine_viper]

For whatever it's worth, I have also had a good bit of experience drag racing in different cars and set-ups. Taller gears make for an easier and quicker launch, period. Wheel spin is much easier to control and car is way less likely to bog. To get a really good launch in a Viper with stock gears, you have to get it just right. Add 3:55s and the launch is much more forgiving as well as quicker.

 

[black mamba1]

It seems "which gear" is probably debated as often as the Roe vs Paxton debate. Some guys swear that the acceleration increase from the 3:55 is offset by wheelspin. Some guys say not so. The lower top speed from 3:55's are also a factor, but who will ever go 200 mph? I have a devil of a time getting the wheels to stick w/ the 3:07, but I would love to explore going to a higher ratio if it really helps in the 0-150 mph races.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Most "serious" drag racers are using the 3.33 gears for the trap speed if this helps, I my self like the 3.55 for all aroung driving pleasure. The viper will not pll redline in 6th so its top end happens in 5th. The 3.55 and 3.73 make the 6th a bit more useful f not faster.

 

[Viper X]

"If both cars were to meet on the street, my Z06 would walk my Viper. Mainly because of gearing and the 7,000 rev limiter."

Wicked,

Do you really think this is true???? A 502 rwhp vette would "walk" a 666 rwhp Viper if they met on the street? We must define "street" differently.

You should try running a longer race, like a 1/2 mile or a mile with both cars and see which one is really faster. The Viper with the Paxton would out run the Vette by a bunch. I'd love to run into you in your Vette, driving your Viper. On an open road, we could start from 40 mph, 50 or up and accelerate to 150 mph or more. The Vette would "get small" behind the Viper.

I've done this a bunch of times to Vette guys out here, with ease.

Dan

 

[Wicked]

The problem is overall heat soak, belt slip, etc... While the car may pull 666 on the dyno, it's certainly not pulling all that while driving around where the Z is pulling it all the time.

I raced my Z06 against an 05 Viper with 600rwhp+ (150 shot of nitrous) and I got him by 1/2 car to 160mph. We also did his roll at 60mph. We tried a 40mph roll and I pulled 2 cars instantly, wasn't even a race. It was so bad, he let out of it before we got to 90mph.

I've raced my Viper against a stock Z06 from 40 and the Z pulled me a car because of traction, I stoped the pull in 2nd, and blew by him in 3rd. I can only imagine how bad it would have been beyond that. But the extra 50rwhp I got on my Z has made a pretty big difference. I don't know how the cars would do above 160 as I don't have any real interest in going beyond that. I mainly care what they do at the strip.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Viper. Just stating a Super Charger isn't all it's cracked up to be. If I had gone with a Twin Turbo setup, it would be a completly different story. However, I think the 08 Vipers are going to be crazy fast! Can't wait to see what they do with a few minor mods.

Jason