So With 600HP In The 2008s, What The Heck Will A Supercharger Produce?

[DodgeViper01]

I was just bored and then got to thinking thinking, What the heck is a Supercharger going to do for an 08? Can you say, INSAINE power! I am not complaining since 600HP for me is already too much but for the horsepower junkies, you must be having a field day.
Just a thought.

 

[dave6666]

It is a contest between car manufacturers.

Contest rules: Car with most horsepower wins.

Questions?

 

[v10Muscle]

The "contest" makes us all winners!

 

[dave6666]

The "contest" makes us all winners!

Cars are just so simple to understand! If only women could adapt...

 

[mike & juli]

Cars are just so simple to understand! If only women could adapt...

Adapt to what...??? Keith--what you raise is a good point...and seeing as there is NO Roe supercharger yet available for the '03-'06 Vipers...wondering also if people will put Paxtons in a car already powerful. (BUT most people will say there is NEVER ENOUGH HP!!!~~~LOL) ~juli

 

[Hamrhead]

From what I've read the '08 will still have cast pistons, along with even higher compression = not a good combonation for boost. So it'll depend on how much the (stock) bottom end of the engine can handle.

As for built engines, that should be very interesting!

 

[DodgeViper01]

From what I've read the '08 will still have cast pistons, along with even higher compression = not a good combonation for boost. So it'll depend on how much the (stock) bottom end of the engine can handle.

As for built engines, that should be very interesting!

GOOD POINT!

 

[DodgeViper01]

Adapt to what...??? Keith--what you raise is a good point...and seeing as there is NO Roe supercharger yet available for the '03-'06 Vipers...wondering also if people will put Paxtons in a car already powerful. (BUT most people will say there is NEVER ENOUGH HP!!!~~~LOL) ~juli

I did not even notice that ROEs were not available for SRTs.

 

[johnk]

The stock Paxton kit for Gen3 Vipers is a tried and true kit, you're probably see 100s of cars with them running relatively big numbers, problem free.

For those who see the '08 "high compression" as being an issue, let me remind you that my '66 GT350 Paxton, stock motor, heads never been off the car, 80k miles, 10.5 stock compression, 6psi. is 40 year old technlogy and works. I believe (hope) that Paxton will offer a kit for the '08s.

 

[George Murray]

Wait a minute...doesn't the new engine use the forged piston assembly from the 6.1 HEMI?

 

[VOI9 ASP]

While touring the DC HQ buiilding during the testing of the new engine we spoke with the engineers that were involved with the design and manufacturing of the new engine and 08 Viper. The question was asked what they thought about adding a supercharger being added to the 08 Viper. They said that would not be a good idea. It sounded as though the 600 hp was close to the design specs of the system. Just food for thought. They may have said that about the 500 hp car aslo.

 

[steponz]

Lets see, how will the new vvt technology handle the supercharger???

Usually most high horsepower would get rid of those... Also how will the new computer system handle it???? Also high compression with cast internals....

Not likely the 08 would be good for tuning with boost....

Maybe in a couple years... but definitely not right away....

This is why I decided to stay with my 05...

When the car is done I will have much more horse than the 08....

Whats also really nice about having the older car is that most of the parts off of the 08, will be able to work with the Gen3...

So if you really like the new engine, trans, and rear... Then add it to the current car...Still cheaper than getting a new 08....

Joe

 

[Viper Specialty]

High compression, cast/PM rods and pistons, MAF, VVT, siamese valve seats, New ECU with no tuning ability in the aftermarket all equate to a long wait for Boost on the 2008's.

Realistically, the only separator for the 03-06 cars and the 08, in a boosted aftermarket configuration, would be the VVT. A properly built 2008 car would have a fully revised rotating assembly (inside of a virtually identical block), would likely go BACK to speed density instead of MAF (like the 03-06 cars have) and have a drivetrain modified well beyond the 2008 OEM parts up to the CURRENT aftermarket drivetrains.

I guess what I am trying to say is simple boost is a thing of the past for 08's, and big power in an 08, even though its not yet possible, is going to look virtually identical to a 03-06 car. Both generations, after the aftermarket gets done with it, will basically be the same short of the VVT. Why bother going to 08 if big power is in your future? If you intent to keep it stock or go the NA route, its a no-brainer.

The new OEM drivetrain parts are better, that is for certain. But they are just that- better OEM. The aftermarket already has parts that will run circles around these new parts, and the big power 08 cars will use the same parts as the 03-06 cars in those situations. Since the 03-06 & 08 cars are built on the same chassis, the big power cars will literally have matching engine parts and drivetrains, down to the part number.

 

[black mamba1]

Stop kidding yourselves...the 08 is a monster and will be even more of a monster w/ mods. The compression ratio can be lowered to make room for boost w/ a s/c. The higher revving motor will produce some really scary numbers. But I think it really gets foggy once you cross the 800-900 hp range, personally I dont think u can really use all those horses in daily driving or even on most tracks unless you run slicks.

That being said, you can mod the 08 to a good 780-800 NATURALLY ASPIRATED horses w/ an aggressive cam, headers, VEC 4?, full Belanger exhaust, and Greg Good or Stryker heads, and some mild porting, cleaning and a good tune. This car will run much cooler than our current s/c Vipers out there and will handle much better. THERE WILL BE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SOLD IN ANY DEALERSHIP ANYWHERE THAT WILL BE ABLE TO TOUCH A MODDED 08 NA VIPER...NOTHING.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Black Mamba- read my post above yours. The 08's will not have any huge advantages in big boosted power than the current SRT, and in fact, will be virtually identical once modified.... because when you get down to the bare bones of the car, it still IS the same underneath. Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, there are some advantages to the 03-06 cars for the boost-hungry guys. For NA, yes, the 08 will have some advantages there because of the VVT.

Low Boost FI: Clearly goes to 03-06 cars, 08 is likely going to require too many changes to make this cost effective for a while
High-Boost, Fully Built FI: Virtually Identical in every way, disregarding the fact that this is net yet possble for 08's, and will likely take quite a while, or massive computer system changes to accomplish.
NA: Clearly goes to the 2008 due to VVT

It all boils down to what you want out of your car. If you want a reliable NA, pretty high HP car, get the 08. If you want quick BIG power from a blower, get an 03-06 car. If you want 1500 horsepower, it really doeasnt matter, but the 03-06 cars can be modified NOW, and are more attainable in the first place... with the end result being basically the same. There are also some smaller advantages to the 03-06 cars, but I will leave them out of this as they will just cloud the issue.

 

[black mamba1]

Hey Final GTS, I agree with every single word you said. I am in a fog as to whether I would ever want boosted power beyond the 700 hp available in a NA car. I dont want the extra 70-90 lbs a s/c brings to the front of the car, making handling kinda tricky, plus the higher temperatures, heat soak, traction issues...etc.
I am not convinced a 900 hp Viper is really much more practical than a 700 hp Viper in 99% of driving situations. Are you?

 

[Viper Specialty]

I am not convinced a 900 hp Viper is really much more practical than a 700 hp Viper in 99% of driving situations. Are you?

A 900 horse TT Viper with decent profile tires, a stock rear gear and progressive power (IE turbos not so small they spool when you blow through them) is not all that unpredictable once you are used to it, even in the lower gears... save first.

I could use the same argument I guess for 500 Vs. 700 HP... you virtually never use all of it, but when you do

 

[Viper X]

Daniel is right, as usual. If you want big FI power, you don't have to wait for the 2008.

Simply put, high compression and FI don't work well together, never have. I've tried it with Viper and it cost me an engine rebuild.

For big power, all internals will need to be changed.

The heads seem to be the "jewels" on the 2008's.

The 2008 should be one fun N/A car though.

Dan

 

[Warfang]

Low Boost FI: Clearly goes to 03-06 cars, 08 is likely going to require too many changes to make this cost effective for a while
High-Boost, Fully Built FI: Virtually Identical in every way, disregarding the fact that this is net yet possble for 08's, and will likely take quite a while, or massive computer system changes to accomplish.

I'm no expert, but I remember reading somewhere that the VVT can be removed for people that race in circuits where VVT is not allowed, and that a non VVT kit can be purchased. Perhaps that's the route people will have to take to boost their snakes.... but most likely won't be street legal.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I'm no expert, but I remember reading somewhere that the VVT can be removed for people that race in circuits where VVT is not allowed, and that a non VVT kit can be purchased. Perhaps that's the route people will have to take to boost their snakes.... but most likely won't be street legal.

I could certainly see how some type of a "VVT Removal Kit" could be produced, but in reality, it would just be easier to phase the cam back to lower overlap if intending to make big boosted power. The issue with the VVT is not just the VVT itself, but the ability to work with the computer than controls it. Dodge has never, and probably will never be very friendly with the aftermarket PCM tuning companies, which is why we *JUST* got the ability to have end-user PCM control after waiting 11 frick'in years! I can only imagine how long the wait will be on this go around, and as the computers get more complicated, the issue becomes a bigger problem.

 

[black mamba1]

A 900 horse TT Viper with decent profile tires, a stock rear gear and progressive power (IE turbos not so small they spool when you blow through them) is not all that unpredictable once you are used to it, even in the lower gears... save first.

I could use the same argument I guess for 500 Vs. 700 HP... you virtually never use all of it, but when you do

My point is that I see 690-725 hp (about 600-625 rwhp) Vipers running 10.3-10.76 sec in the 1/4 mile on stock tires. But when guys get up into 800-1000 hp range, I dont see a drop in 1/4 mile times, quite frankly I often see higher 1/4 mile times w/ Vipers in that hp range due to traction problems w/ stock tires. And several guys in this forum w/ Vipers in that hp range that are s/c say that a NA Viper w/ about 700 hp (600 rwhp) is ideal for road racing due to better handling (no s/c equipment weight in the nose) and better cooling. One guy said his track times actually dropped when he added his s/c b/c of handling problems.

I raced a 875 hp Viper in the quarter mile when I had approximately 560 hp, I had him by 2 cars by the time he hooked up, and he never caught me b/c of all his fishtailing and spinning, and some heat soak.

So...if the s/c cars are slower in the 1/4 mile due to traction problems on stock tires, and slower on road courses due to heat soak and a heavier nose on stock tires, when and where can you actually use 900 hp w/ stock tires? That seems to be simply crazy hp for a rear wheel only powered vehicle. My friend w/ 875 hp said he can never really use it, he says its just cool to say you have it. I dont see the practicality of changing to semi slicks every time I go out in my Viper...so stock tires (PS2's) are it for me.

Even the 1000+ hp Twin Turbo Vipers I see going up against the Veyron and Lambo's have horrible 1/4 mile times...but excellent mile times. When will anyone in this forum ever have a chance to do a flat out mile run?

 

[Viper X]

To each his own ..... but .....

First, you'd be surprised how much faster a big hp Viper, say 850 to 950 rwhp is than a 500 to 600 rwhp car if it is properly set up and driven.

I'm sure there are those among us that mod the engine to high power levels and do little to the suspension, tires, diff, computer, etc - never mind the driver.

Be careful quoting 1/4 mile times as there are many variables. The big hp Vipers that are set up for the 1/4 can be very, very fast. We have two S/C Vipers locally that run in the 9's in the quarter. I know of several others nationally that run much faster. No offense, but the guys that want good 1/4 mile times don't run stock tires or PS2's.

In longer races, they do even better. My 820 rwhp car ran 164 mph in the 1/2 mile at the Silver State with street tires. This race is run at 6500 feet above sea level. A friend's 972 rwhp GTS ran 202 mph in the mile at the same event and set the record. 500 to 600 rwhp N/A Vipers ran about 135 - 140 mph in the 1/2 mile and about 168 - 170 in the mile. This is a huge difference.

There are other events where you can run 1/2 mile and 1 mile. The Maxton Mile comes to mind along with the Dakota event.

Also, don't believe for a second that the Paxton adds so much weight as to make the car difficult to handle on a road course, it doesn't. Several guys run Paxtons at Viper Days events and do fine.

Dan

 

[black mamba1]

Viper X, this is excellent information. And goes a long way to helping decide which way to set up. Let me ask you, what are you 1/4 mile times w/ your 820 rwhp car on street tires or the tires you normally drive with?

Just curious....

 

[viperjer]

Black Mamba- read my post above yours. The 08's will not have any huge advantages in big boosted power than the current SRT, and in fact, will be virtually identical once modified.... because when you get down to the bare bones of the car, it still IS the same underneath. Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, there are some advantages to the 03-06 cars for the boost-hungry guys. For NA, yes, the 08 will have some advantages there because of the VVT.

Low Boost FI: Clearly goes to 03-06 cars, 08 is likely going to require too many changes to make this cost effective for a while
High-Boost, Fully Built FI: Virtually Identical in every way, disregarding the fact that this is net yet possble for 08's, and will likely take quite a while, or massive computer system changes to accomplish.
NA: Clearly goes to the 2008 due to VVT

It all boils down to what you want out of your car. If you want a reliable NA, pretty high HP car, get the 08. If you want quick BIG power from a blower, get an 03-06 car. If you want 1500 horsepower, it really doeasnt matter, but the 03-06 cars can be modified NOW, and are more attainable in the first place... with the end result being basically the same. There are also some smaller advantages to the 03-06 cars, but I will leave them out of this as they will just cloud the issue.

I asked a viper tech here and they said there were to many computer and electrical things going on to add a super charger right now. Somebody will figure it though.
I was also told by a very reliable source there were a lot of issues to figure out with the new car and keep my 06 until next summer. Not sure what that means. Why will some dealerships cover your car under warranty if they put a Paxton on and some dealerships will not. I called a few and they said if we put it on we will cover it. The one in AZ said we will put it on but you will no longer have a warranty. Does any one know where I can send my 06 for a Paxton and still keep it under warranty?
Thanks Jer

 

[black mamba1]

I asked a viper tech here and they said there were to many computer and electrical things going on to add a super charger right now. Somebody will figure it though.
I was also told by a very reliable source there were a lot of issues to figure out with the new car and keep my 06 until next summer. Not sure what that means. Why will some dealerships cover your car under warranty if they put a Paxton on and some dealerships will not. I called a few and they said if we put it on we will cover it. The one in AZ said we will put it on but you will no longer have a warranty. Does any one know where I can send my 06 for a Paxton and still keep it under warranty?
Thanks Jer

Thanks Viperjer,
My real issue is not the 08 vs the 03-06, my issue is whether to go NA or s/c. I think the 08 is a fascinating vehicle, the best around for under $300k. But 600 fly wheel hp is great for bragging rights on a stock vehicle, but will get you embarassed in many situations in the sports car world. My search is trying to find the best balance of power and streetable situations. I see many 600 rwhp cars running 10.7's in the quarter mile, while I see many 900+ hp cars running in the high 11's b/c of traction problems unless they switch to tires that are semi-slicks that do not corner worth a crap. The Viper is the only production 400+ hp car w/out traction control I am aware of, and it is basic physics, once you cross a certain torque number, the wheel spin cannot be controlled by the human brain/foot no where near fast enough to counter the wheel spin. Traction control is basically a sophisticated mechanism to reduce power and torque to the wheels for optimum acceleration, it is evident to me that on stock tires once you cross say 700 rwhp or so the extra power becomes counterproductive in MOST driving situations.
Yes, my good friend and brilliant mind of Viper X mentioned how you can use the power, the 1/2 mile and the mile. But up here in CT I will maybe get a chance to do that once or twice per year...while getting my ass kicked practically everywhere else were I to have 700+ rwhp. Like I mentioned before, I kicked a guys ass in the 1/4 mile who had 700 plus rwhp in his Viper and I only had about 498 rwhp or so in mine. His car was a MONSTER once you got it up to speed, but from red light to red light (in 1/3 mile contests or so), he had NO CHANCE.
I simply do not want to have to set up my car such that it must drive on dangerous semi slicks to take advantage of the extra power...if anyone knows of a tire that will corned like the PS2's or better and still get most of the 700+ rwhp to the ground I am all ears...

 

[Viper X]

OK, black mamba1, here's some info that may help you. But first, you must really decide how you want to use your car, then set it up accordingly.

I run Kumho Ecsta V-700 tires on the back of my black 2004 Paxton SRT-10. These are mounted on 18-inch HRE six spoke race wheels. These tires will out handle PS2's in the turns and in the straights by a long shot. They cost a bunch less too. While they may not last quite as long, they are worth the traction. They are OK in the rain too. If these tires were made in 19 inches, I'd buy them but unfortunately, there is nothing like them in 19 at this time. Call JonB.

The engine in this car is now 530 ci making 925 peak rwhp on a conservative "pump gas" 91 octane tune with only 11.5 lbs of peak boost. I also have Motons, a Quaife, a spec stage 3+ clutch and 1000 hp CV 1/2 shafts. Torque is just over 800 at the wheels and is about 630 at only 3000 rpm.

These are some extensive mods I know, but I can get the power to the ground very well on a smooth road / warm day. I have not run this car at the drags yet, I'm still sorting out things like motor mounts (Woodhouse poly going in now) and AEM drivability issues. I'm not a big " 1/4 mile drag guy" as I don't think it's a very good representation of how fast a car really is. I prefer longer races and do a bunch of road racing with my GTS.

If you were closer, a demonstration could be arranged. I do have a Racelogic Performance Box (a GPS based lap timer that also times 0 to 60, 0 to 100, 1/4, etc.) and have done some testing. My best time 0 to 60 sliding the clutch is 3.0 seconds on the Kumhos all in first gear, which isn't too bad for a rear wheel drive car at this power level. Let's just leave this as I really waste 500 or 600 rwhp cars by the top of second gear.

When I get the car back from DC, I'll do some 0 to 100's and 1/4's. It's a very strong car and power isn't the issue. I've had some problems shifting at this power level due to the torque twisting everything.

In a roll on race, this car is unbelievable (except maybe to the twin turbo guys). Most of the folks that want to ride in it end up screaming "enough" or "stop" or "no more". Some get nauseated.

Once you go over to the "dark side" with a high hp Viper, it's hard to come back.

Dan

 

[DodgeViper01]

Lots of great arguments in here. I am very interested to find out the real answer now.

 

[viperjer]

Lots of great arguments in here. I am very interested to find out the real answer now.

You guys are really lucky to have some place you live to take your car to and have that kind of work done on it. I may have to run mine over to CA.
Jerry

 

[black mamba1]

Switching to smaller wheels is a dilemma for me. I love the stock Viper wheels. Yeah, I know they are heavier than some aftermarket, and I know the Kumho's dont make a tire to fit the 19" wheel, but part of the Viper's aggressive look comes from the stock 19" wheels in my opinion.
I tell ya, its always something....

 

[Nader]

Switching to smaller wheels is a dilemma for me. I love the stock Viper wheels. Yeah, I know they are heavier than some aftermarket, and I know the Kumho's dont make a tire to fit the 19" wheel, but part of the Viper's aggressive look comes from the stock 19" wheels in my opinion.
I tell ya, its always something....

Okay lets compare -

Stock:

Not stock -

Questions? Yes my car in both. How do you like my garage?