some positive thoughts for a bad situation...

[cstegall]

....is what I am asking of you'all. Semi-short version is this: I decide I like the new SRT Coupe and put my SRT-10 up for sale on the VCA website. The car was stock until I added a bunch of after market items (Autoform hardtop, rollbar, wheels, Snakehydes, etc.)and the cost to me was more than what I was selling it for but I was happy when a buyer came forward and we made a deal on an amount that pleased both of us. We closed the deal and I was able to get one of my partners to agree to take one of our employees and transport the car to Las Vegas, Nevada and deliver it to the new owner. The deal was completed and my partner left DFW on Tuesday...driving thru to Vegas and arriving around 2 p.m. today. New owner liked the car and drove it a bit...friends,etc. began to show up and admire the car...and were allowed to drive the car for a short run. One of those friends took along his daughter (11 or 12 years old) and lost control of the car...rolled it....and totaled the vehicle. Both were rushed to the hospital. Dad was pretty bunged up but should be fine...daughter sustained some head trauma and may undergo some surgery. All in all it was very evident that had the convertible top been up OR down...the occupants may not have made it. The Autoform hardtop combined with the rollbar was what probably restricted most of the damage to the car rather than the occupants.

Very scary deal. Car is totaled 2 hours after delivery but occupants make it.
Please remember these two in your prayers...if only for a moment...and all those other folks that don't realize how powerful these cars are.

Thanks....
Clark

 

[vincent_esq]

My prayers are with them.

 

[Gerald]

He let a friend drive his brand new Viper??? And then his friend looses control?

I'm glad he's ok Clark. But a little common sense should have been used.

G

 

[cstegall]

You are very correct Gerald...just a surreal event. Maybe I should have Doug dial the GTS down a bit! To take delivery on a car and two hours later almost lose a friend and his daughter has got to be tough on my buyer....he's a great guy and we have become fast friends over this deal.

Just glad that Autoform decided to design and sell the rollbar....or things could be very different.

Clark

 

[SnakeEye]

Whoa...that is some tragic story with a bad ending that sounds as if it could have been even worse. Here's hoping for their speedy and full recovery.

 

[RavenFan_94]

Uggh. Makes you think about how irrelevant bickering on the internet can be. Hope they are ok. Prayers are with them.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Very sorry for all parties involved and especially the injured.

Will send prayers their way.

A good friend of mine wanted to borrow one of my Vipers to take his teenage son for a ride. I said sorry but I did not want him to kill himself or his son! He thought I was crazy and offered to give me a check for $75,000.00 in case he crashed the car. I still said no and explained that the Viper is a very high performance car that will allow a driver to very quickly put themselves in a position they may not be able to control. We continue to be good friends, go on vacations together with our kids, etc. Most people do not understand and/or respect performance cars. The read magazine articles about their tremendous performance and do not understand that it takes skill to control this tremendous performance. No different from a boat, plane, motorcycle, etc.

 

[KaiPL]

All in all it was very evident that had the convertible top been up OR down...the occupants may not have made it.

I don't understand. Was the top up or down?

Good thing you put in the autoform roll bar. I have to say, that I never realy understood why the car doesn't come with a real roll bar. After checking out the stock "sport hoops" (which are thin aluminum covered with rubber) I was certainly glad that I made the change to the Autoform bar.

At least it sounds like everyone is going to be OK in the end.


Kai

 

[cstegall]

Kai...
The Autoform hardtop was on the car. If the car had not had the top than more than likely they would have put the vert top down as the day today in Vegas was beautiful. I am sure that even though the top is not made to withstand multiple rollovers, it did offer some assistance to the rollbar. The story seems to be that there was no racing involved...just a heavy foot and the car not pointing straight...and an inexperienced driver. Bad combination.
It makes me wonder what is in store for those folks that are soooooo looking forward to getting a 500hp Z06 and not really knowing what its like to drive a car with that amount of response. I don't know the torque numbers on the vet but I can tell you, with certainty, that there WILL be some folks driving that car that don't understand the difference between 400 and 500.

Thanks everyone for your concern and comments. This has been a very strange experience....

Clark

 

[madman]

uff, surreal story, I have teen daughter myself, don't want to think what I would do if I caused my daughter to suffer through my stupidity...

On another note - I noticed in few threads they mentioned these autoform rollbars like SRT would not have rollbars. You want to say that that thing behind my seats are for nothing? In 05 model? I was looking through that plastic opening behind the seat and it seems that there is some metal construction and it seems to me as a standard rollbar protection.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Clark - First off, our prayers are with the gentleman and his daughter, as well as your buyer who has got to be just miserable about right now. Certainly nothing you could do other than warn the purchaser up front that the Viper is a LOT to handle for anybody, especially a novice.

We won't hijack this thread, however you mentioned a certain Chevy and the dangers inherent in those 500 ponies. The big difference is that the Chevy comes with all kinds of electronic assistance to diminish such incidents, including traction control and stability control. I am afraid that I am not really in the "bare bones" camp of the Viper anymore and think that a switchable traction control should be standard. While it can't prevent every problem, it would certainly reduce the number of incidents. In discussing something similar in Detroit this past weekend, one of the DC guys said that if you had suggested ABS on the Viper six years ago you would have been told you were nuts. Now it's hard to imagine buying a new one without it.

Madman - The rear roll hoops are largely cosmetic. They are attached with a small bolt and the hoop itself is thin aluminum. I believe that even the warning on the door jambs and manual note that they offer no protection in a rollover. Autoform has a new roll bar design that doesn't block the rear view as much as the first one. A good investment indeed.

 

[AG98RT10]

I am afraid that I am not really in the "bare bones" camp of the Viper anymore and think that a switchable traction control should be standard.

Bully for you! About time people started thinking with their brains and not their glands about these cars. Just way too many get wrapped up in the first few weeks or months or ownership.

 

[SCLSSRT10]

Our prayers are with the father and daughter that were injured. It sounds like the hard top and roll bars did excatly what they are supposed to have done. For those of us that put the SRT10 on the track I would never think of tracking the car without both the hardtop and roll bar. Even if you only have the roll bar keep the top up. In the event you have a serious crash the top will offer some sort of protection to your hands and arms flying around. I hope the "top up" will be required this year at all our club events. Viper Days is requiring arm restraints with only the roll bar and I think they will be requiring the top up also. The do however have a couple of hard tops for use at the track on a first come basis.

The most important thing about safety is using your head first. One question is we all want to spend more money to make these cars faster but how many of us are spending money on them to make them safer? We don't think twice about buying a new set of tires at the track but why not buy a Hans device before the season starts. It's the best $1,000.00 you will ever spend.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but lets all use our heads before we let other people drive these beasts. We have to protect them from themselves.

God bless the injured father and daughter and may they have a speedy recovery.

 

[Turbo63]

Same here -- prayers and thoughts are with the family and glad it wasnt worse. I have a daughter who is 12 as well and this sort of situation is extactly what I have been concerned about regarding Viper ownership. One has to be careful when handling such a big torque car. Depressing the gas to deeply can create challenges that are difficult to reverse. Also sounds like being familiar and comfortable with shifting is another skill that needs to be mastered. Hopefully everything will work out fine, the father/daughter will fully recover and the car will be repaired or replaced so the new buyer will be fine. I also agree with Chris that a defeatable AH/TC capability simply makes sense -- maybe sometime in the future we will see it on these beasts.

 

[MoparMan]

I saw that story on the news here last night. They are reporting it as if the OWNER of the car wrecked it an hour after he bought it - stupid reporters. From the video on the news it was obvious the car had not been bought new from a dealer (the wheels, for one, were a dead giveaway). Also from the news video this guy seriously lost control of the car as it was easily 150' off the freeway, up an embankment and across a concrete drainage trough. Hopefully, the daughter will be ok and out of the hospital soon.

 

[KaiPL]

uff, surreal story, I have teen daughter myself, don't want to think what I would do if I caused my daughter to suffer through my stupidity...

On another note - I noticed in few threads they mentioned these autoform rollbars like SRT would not have rollbars. You want to say that that thing behind my seats are for nothing? In 05 model? I was looking through that plastic opening behind the seat and it seems that there is some metal construction and it seems to me as a standard rollbar protection.

Those "hoops" behind your seat are for show only. They are not a roll bar.

They are constructed of 1/16 inch thick aluminum wrapped with rubber. Their attachment to the car is not stout. In any kind of roll over, they would do litttle or nothing to protect you. I saw the stock hoops and how they were attached to the car when I was getting the Autoform bar put in. The stock hoops do NOT offer significant protection. There should be a sticker on your car that tells you this.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Someone should sue DC over those pathetic "roll hoops" What a bunch of cheap ******** to comprimise people that way. By looking at them you would assume they are protective and are intended to protect occupants if you put it shiny side down.

Another reason coupes > verts

I'll cross post what I put of at the alley for those that don't dare venture that far. While the Viper is a fun car, safety should also receive the same attention that going fast does...


Forgot to add that it's events like this why I would keep my ass out of a high h.p. convertible. Secondly Dodge should have never sold a car like this that doesn't come with integrated roll hoops that are built into the FRAME of the vehicle. The roll hoops on the SRT-10 are PLASTIC!

I know that most high end car manufacturers that produce convertibles have devices that shoot up in the event of a rollover. Why the hell dodge didn't include these is beyond me. More beancounter cost cutting that jeprodizes the reputation of the car.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

My biggest concern is the well being of the daughter and father. What a horrible accident. As a father I can only imagine the feeling of guilt for being so stupid.

The Viper has a very low center of gravity making flipping a pretty hard event to occur. I did not say impossible but hard.

A Viper is not a race car!

You want driver protection buy a Competition Coupe. We have to accept the fact the humans do stupid thinkings make worn decisions without consideration of the consequences that are out of the realm of anyones expectations to prevent. The ultimate responsibility for safe driving is the drivers.

Viper, Corvettes, all high performance vehicles, chain saws, power saws, nail guns require proper understanding of basic operation.

This type of accident(oblivious Pilot judgement) is exactly why I am a crusader for all drivers to take High performance driving schools. In our area(in 1996) the passenger died intimately, the driver was the best friend of the passenger.

We need to be responsible for our actions and own our mistakes when we make bad decisions. I have made my share of bad decsions and try to learn and prevent others from doing the same thing.

I pray the father and daughter are okay!

 

[madman]

Hmm, they call them 'Top support'... on a small grey sticker with black letters. Lucky DC nobody sued them for the deception yet. This is insane, every other roadster manufacturer makes them protective, not DC... Not cool.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

It is common knowledge that the "Hoops" decorative not functional roll hoops.

If you want Roll Over protection install functional Roll Hoops, why stop at a roll hoop, why not a full roll cage?

What about fire? If you want fire protection install a Halon system.

Many years ago back in the days of Bob Champine I remember discussing several safety topics like requiring owners to take a Skip Barber course or offering one free with the purchase, Roll bars were discussed as well. At that the reasoning was that these items suggest the are encouraging street racing and would increase their legal liability. It was brought up that other manufactures offered Performance Driving programs(I think Porsche did), the answer was that their lawyers said no.

Want a race car we can buy a Comp. Coupe, If we plan to take the car to the track and/or drive aggressively then install the safety equipment you feel necessary or as required by an open track event.

 

[Cris]

I agree completely Fred (said tongue in cheek). Installing capable roll hoops or active roll hoops would be terrible. You might want to tell Mercedes, BMW, Porsche and others that it is not a good practice and encourages bad behavior.

The Viper SRT is the ONLY high power sports car that I know that in convertible or roadster form does not offer effective rollover protection.

So I have only one question: why do they make it look like it has roll hoops. Isn't that deceptive in and of itself (labels be damned as even the RT/10 had labels, but did so with significantly better rollover protection)?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

You like tongue in cheek please look at the following Roll Hoop!http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/convertible/

Some Cars do seem to have roll over protection. Most from EU or Japan.
Check out the Detroit car show http://www.detnews.com/2005/autoshow/tour/index.htm

Look at the following:
2006 Jaguar XK 'Victory' Edition
2005 Toyota MR2 Spyder
2005 Porsche 911 Carrera S

You have to also be practical what cars suffer the highest rollover death and accident rate? Sports Cars? SUV's Dump Trucks?

Non of us want to see anyone have an accident or worse get injured or injure someone else.

To many years ago my Dad told me "it I played I had to pay" and "the bed you made was yours to sleep in"

Nothing has changed in my opinion!

 

[madman]

I guess the problem lies in a free spirit of this country. I may be wrong but in Europe they would not certify a convertible without a rollover protection.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

In the US you must wear a helmet when on a bike or motor cycle.

All perspective!

And I for one would love a Roll Hoop in my SRT10 just like the one I have in my ACR!

 

[Cris]

Look at the following for some examples:

Pop up roll bar: http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/features/specs/overview_engine.jsp?spec=6&menu=3_0&modelCode=SL500R&class=05_SL

Roll bar: http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/Z4/25i/features.htm
http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/boxster/boxster.nsf/usaenglish/safetypassive_safety

These are just a few. But the reality is you will probably only be able to find a few (Corvette & mustang, etc) that do not have passive or active roll bars. Why a 500 hp car does not is beyond me.

 

[Cris]

"In the US you must wear a helmet when on a bike or motor cycle."

Hmm, you must live in a pretty strange place. Motorcycles yes, in many states. But a bicycle! It cannot be a law in wallyworldland could it???

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Chris,

Is the head of a bicyclist of less importance than a motorcyclist?

Seems to me the impact of a car on a bicyclist is more dangerous than vs a motorcycle?

 

[Cris]

So then it becomes LAW??? Walking is even more dangerous. Should we be forced to wear full body armor when walking?

Needless to say wearing a helmet for bicycles here is not mandatory, and since I do almost all my riding within the subdivision area I have never worn one.

And if you think bicycles are as dangerous as motorcycles you need some education. Maybe Barber teaches that one too.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

It is common knowledge that the "Hoops" decorative not functional roll hoops.

If you want Roll Over protection install functional Roll Hoops, why stop at a roll hoop, why not a full roll cage?

What about fire? If you want fire protection install a Halon system.

Many years ago back in the days of Bob Champine I remember discussing several safety topics like requiring owners to take a Skip Barber course or offering one free with the purchase, Roll bars were discussed as well. At that the reasoning was that these items suggest the are encouraging street racing and would increase their legal liability. It was brought up that other manufactures offered Performance Driving programs(I think Porsche did), the answer was that their lawyers said no.

Want a race car we can buy a Comp. Coupe, If we plan to take the car to the track and/or drive aggressively then install the safety equipment you feel necessary or as required by an open track event.

Are you absolutely nuts???


Not ALL rollovers are the fault of the driver. Lets say someone is driving their SRT down a major road that is 4 lanes in each direction. They get to an intersection and some ******* coming across the intersection runs a red light and t-bones the SRT. The SRT goes hurling across the street, hits the curb and rolls. Because of the high speed of the vehicle that ran the red light the SRT skids on it's top for a good 30 feet completely tearing the skin and mangling the upper extremeties of the occupants of the SRT who were just out for a nice liesurely drive. So please just explain to me how this is the fault of the SRT driver.

You sound like one of those archaiac morons who thinks that teaching sex education in school promotes teenagers to have sex. I've got a newsflash for you, teenagers are going to do it and people are going to drive fast regardless of whether or not you educate them. Get your head out of the sand and realize that a 500 h.p. convertible should without a doubt come with active rollover protection. The $50K Mercedes CLK roadster comes with them, why not the Viper?

Get off of your "go to a driving school" high horse - it's sickening. Nothing skip barber could teach you would help you when your car is already on it's top.

DC really needs to get their asses sued over this, it should be their corporate responsibility.

 

[Cris]

Damn, hate to say it but I agree with Craig. Did I just say that? Wow!

No way should a high performance vehicle come without rollover protection. That includes the Corvette. the fact that they chose not to have it does not excuse DC from not having it. Safety should be a given and not an aftermarket add-on.