some positive thoughts for a bad situation...

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Hi Cris,

As I said previously a functional Roll Hoop would be welcome. I just do not agree with blaming a manufacture for a drivers error in judgement and/or inability to control a vehicle.

In the example given of a T-bone the HP has no bearing on the roll over potential. There are plenty of rag tops without roll bars like the T-Bird, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Chevrolet SSR Audi, Toyota Solara, just to name a few.
Smaller rag tops would actually be more susceptible to a roll over do to their lighter mass and higher center of gravity. The T-bone example is really brilliant and certainly supports all cars with 500hp have roll bars. NOT!

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Hi Cris,

As I said previously a functional Roll Hoop would be welcome. I just do not agree with blaming a manufacture for a drivers error in judgement and/or inability to control a vehicle.

In the example given of a T-bone the HP has no bearing on the roll over potential. There are plenty of rag tops without roll bars like the T-Bird, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Chevrolet SSR Audi, Toyota Solara, just to name a few.
Smaller rag tops would actually be more susceptible to a roll over do to their lighter mass and higher center of gravity. The T-bone example is really brilliant and certainly supports all cars with 500hp have roll bars. NOT!

Of course HP has no bearing on a car's potential for rolling over. My question is to why is it not included anyway? Especially in a car that is going to be driven "enthusiastically"?

When Mercedes includes these on sub 300 h.p. roadsters, there shouldn't be any question as to the viability to putting them into a 500 h.p. supercar.

 

[HiYoSilver]

There definitely is something to be said when an ultra- performance vehicle is produced with a set of rollbars that are for "sport" only and do not actually function as protective rollbars.
It is analagous to having a fake or empty fire extinguisher hanging in your home or your kids school, for appearance only.
Perhaps D-C should think about this and fix it before they are forced to.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Like the Roll Bars on the Mercedes SL55 AMG and SL65 AMG?
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/SL55.jsp

 

[Janni]

Like the Roll Bars on the Mercedes SL55 AMG and SL65 AMG?
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/SL55.jsp

Why Yes, Fred, EXACTLY like that!

From the specifications info on same site:

"Pop-up roll bar: If sensors detect an imminent rollover, a high-strength steel roll bar automatically deploys in 0.3 second. Driver can also raise and retract the roll bar electrically via a console control.6 "

 

[Cris]

Like the Roll Bars on the Mercedes SL55 AMG and SL65 AMG?
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/models/SL55.jsp

Thanks Fred for making the point. Directly from the web page under "interior."
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/features/specs/overview_engine.jsp?spec=6&menu=3_0&modelCode=SL55&class=05_SL

Restraint Systems

Integrated Restraint System Driver and passenger are each provided with a front air bag, a door-mounted side-impact head/thorax air bag, and 3-point seat belt with Emergency Tensioning Device (ETD) and belt force limiter.5 Driver is also provided with a knee air bag.

Adaptive dual-stage front air bags are deployed in response to frontal impact severity.5

ETDs are deployed in a front or rear impact exceeding a preset threshold of severity, or certain rollovers. An ETD will not deploy if seat belt is unfastened.

Occupancy sensor prevents the passenger's front and side-impact head/thorax air bags from deploying if the seat is unoccupied. An ETD will not deploy if seat belt is unfastened.

Automatic Collision Notification engages Tele Aid SOS function if an air bag or ETD deploys4.

Selectable seat-belt retractor for passenger seat, to help secure a child seat.5

Seat belts are attached to seat frames at all three points. Shoulder belts height-adjust automatically.

Head restraints automatically height-adjust as the seats move fore-aft. Head restraints also power-adjust for height and adjust fore-aft manually.

<font color="red"> Pop-up roll bar: If sensors detect an imminent rollover, a high-strength steel roll bar automatically deploys in 0.3 second. Driver can also raise and retract the roll bar electrically via a console control. </font>

 

[HiYoSilver]

Pop-up rollbars are very sophisticated, expensive and have excess weight with possible reliability issues. A static structurally sound set of rollbars like the Z-8, Z-3, SLK-350, Boxster or the latest model Autoform rollbars for the SRT would be more appropriate. Bob

 

[GR8_ASP]

Plus a place to attach the rear windscreen

I don't think anyone really wants the pop-up type. It was more of a reference that many other cars include either a structural roll hoop or pop up device.

 

[Torquemonster]

I agree with Craig that proper roll bars should be used... but not the expense of pop ups... why not just have conventional hoops that happen to be strong and rigid enough?

Ford in Australia used to use tubing then fill it with a super strong but ultra light foam - it made an extremely rigid yet light frame that could handle brutal impacts.

sorry to hear about the father and daughter - that's just sad.... but very believable...

personally I do not think the Viper is very hard to drive... in fact they are easy to drive quickly without spinning a tire. You have to provoke them to do it unless the surface is less than ideal or you do it out of a turn. I would not have thought this was rocket science... maybe I am wrong

I cannot get my head around how people can be so stupid to think they can stomp on the gas just because they feel like it - it boggles the mind!

A viper can be floored even in 1st gear if you are smooth and progressive in the throttle application...

but if you stomp on it - of course it will break loose.... duh!

but then I drive thru the snow here and watch some clown in an SUV or even a 2wd car flash past at 70mph as though they were immune from any possibility something could go wrong... I guess many people just really do not have a clue.... they simply drive so close to a tragedy they never know how lucky they are to arrive home on any given day

mind boggling but true.

I'm all for friends driving a car - long as they can be trusted, not because they simply want to.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

The advantage of a pop up device is that it uses the nose of the car and the extended roll up hoops to support the weight of the car and not the windshield frame. It also provies an extra 8 inches of so of clearance that could prove to be crucial in a rollover. If the SRT was to have hoops that would ensure that the occupant's heads would not take the brunt of the force they would need to be fixed at least 6 inches above the top of the seat head reasts. I don't know of anyone whose head does not sit higher than the top of the seat. Having higher roll bars would mean that the roof would have to be totally redesigned.

I don't see why it would be so difficult to adapt these from the SL 65AMG. At the VERY LEAST it should be an option for the customer to choose.

 

[Janni]

At a BARE MINIMUM the SRT-10 convertible should have had adequate rollover protection. Pop-up or fixed to be determined by necessity. I have also seen folks with Autoform rollbars on track with their helmet sticking up several inches past the rollbar. Simply speaking, you don't want your head and neck compressing before you get to the structural rigidity of the rollbar. Any rollbar should pass the "broomstick test" as mentioned by SCCA - i.e. your helmeted head should be below a broomstick placed between the front windshield surround and the roll bar. So I can see where the pop-ups might be the answer.

This is one instance where I wouldn't complain about the weight.

It should have been there. Period.

 

[Hisserman]

It's not like DCX isn't aware of the situation. Below are a couple of pics of what happened when a DCX exec borrowed one of the company cars for a weekend a while back. He didn't get a mile away from the DCX headquarters!

He was trapped in the car and couldn't get out (how he survived, no one knows!). The emergency crew had to open the doors for him.

Maybe DCX thinks that if no one got killed here -- that's good enough! Actually, I know that they are more responsible than that, but you think they would get serious about rollbars on the convertibles.

 

[ERDOC]

It is common knowledge that the "Hoops" decorative not functional roll hoops.

If you want Roll Over protection install functional Roll Hoops, why stop at a roll hoop, why not a full roll cage?

What about fire? If you want fire protection install a Halon system.

Many years ago back in the days of Bob Champine I remember discussing several safety topics like requiring owners to take a Skip Barber course or offering one free with the purchase, Roll bars were discussed as well. At that the reasoning was that these items suggest the are encouraging street racing and would increase their legal liability. It was brought up that other manufactures offered Performance Driving programs(I think Porsche did), the answer was that their lawyers said no.

Want a race car we can buy a Comp. Coupe, If we plan to take the car to the track and/or drive aggressively then install the safety equipment you feel necessary or as required by an open track event.

Are you absolutely nuts???


Not ALL rollovers are the fault of the driver. Lets say someone is driving their SRT down a major road that is 4 lanes in each direction. They get to an intersection and some ******* coming across the intersection runs a red light and t-bones the SRT. The SRT goes hurling across the street, hits the curb and rolls. Because of the high speed of the vehicle that ran the red light the SRT skids on it's top for a good 30 feet completely tearing the skin and mangling the upper extremeties of the occupants of the SRT who were just out for a nice liesurely drive. So please just explain to me how this is the fault of the SRT driver.

You sound like one of those archaiac morons who thinks that teaching sex education in school promotes teenagers to have sex. I've got a newsflash for you, teenagers are going to do it and people are going to drive fast regardless of whether or not you educate them. Get your head out of the sand and realize that a 500 h.p. convertible should without a doubt come with active rollover protection. The $50K Mercedes CLK roadster comes with them, why not the Viper?

Get off of your "go to a driving school" high horse - it's sickening. Nothing skip barber could teach you would help you when your car is already on it's top.

DC really needs to get their asses sued over this, it should be their corporate responsibility.

I agree 100%.... all cars should be made as safe as possible and in a covertible, a rollbar should be mandatory. A rollbar is passive safety just like airbags and crumple zones. Sometimes accidents are not your fault and you shouldn't be punished because you didn't attend some driving school.

 

[joe117]

Craig's right, just this one time.
Fred,
Your constant drum beat for driving school is tiresome.

Perhaps driving school is a good thing.
Do you have any data to back that up?

Has anyone who has been to driving school ever screwed up and wrecked their car?

Do the people who have been to driving school have better accident records?

Did anyone ever wreck their car at driving school.
You know the answer to that one.

Did it ever occur to you that some folks learned how to drive on a racetrack without driving school?

How about drilling into people's heads, "don't let anyone drive your Viper",
instead of "go to driving school".

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

I like Joe when he's busting someone ELSE'S balls

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Anyone who is confident they know how to drive a performance car can take responsibility and liability for the consequences of their actions driving the car.

Joe117,

I guess you missed this earlier post:

"Very sorry for all parties involved and especially the injured.

Will send prayers their way.

A good friend of mine wanted to borrow one of my Vipers to take his teenage son for a ride. I said sorry but I did not want him to kill himself or his son! He thought I was crazy and offered to give me a check for $75,000.00 in case he crashed the car. I still said no and explained that the Viper is a very high performance car that will allow a driver to very quickly put themselves in a position they may not be able to control. We continue to be good friends, go on vacations together with our kids, etc. Most people do not understand and/or respect performance cars. The read magazine articles about their tremendous performance and do not understand that it takes skill to control this tremendous performance. No different from a boat, plane, motorcycle, etc."

There are drivers who race and have never taken a driving school. In one of the Skip Barber Car Control Clinics(a few years ago) I attended I remember a driver(forget his name he lived in So Calif.) who raced in the Rolex 24hr race(Drove a Porsche in the race and got a podium finish). He was a co-driver with Kelly Collins(Kelly a Skip Barber instructor now drives a Corvette in the ALMS as well as at LeMans). Point is some Race drivers take performance driving courses and some do not.

Regarding statics supporting a driving school I have done nor am I intellectually challenged enough to think they rare not of tremendous value. My Opinion.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Anyone who is confident they know how to drive a performance car can take responsibility and liability for the consequences of their actions driving the car.

Joe117,

I guess you missed this earlier post:

"Very sorry for all parties involved and especially the injured.

Will send prayers their way.

A good friend of mine wanted to borrow one of my Vipers to take his teenage son for a ride. I said sorry but I did not want him to kill himself or his son! He thought I was crazy and offered to give me a check for $75,000.00 in case he crashed the car. I still said no and explained that the Viper is a very high performance car that will allow a driver to very quickly put themselves in a position they may not be able to control. We continue to be good friends, go on vacations together with our kids, etc. Most people do not understand and/or respect performance cars. The read magazine articles about their tremendous performance and do not understand that it takes skill to control this tremendous performance. No different from a boat, plane, motorcycle, etc."

There are drivers who race and have never taken a driving school. In one of the Skip Barber Car Control Clinics(a few years ago) I attended I remember a driver(forget his name he lived in So Calif.) who raced in the Rolex 24hr race(Drove a Porsche in the race and got a podium finish). He was a co-driver with Kelly Collins(Kelly a Skip Barber instructor now drives a Corvette in the ALMS as well as at LeMans). Point is some Race drivers take performance driving courses and some do not.

Regarding statics supporting a driving school I have done nor am I intellectually challenged enough to think they rare not of tremendous value. My Opinion.

Why do you keep ignoring the point that not all accidents are the fault of the driver? How can taking a driving school help you avoid being hit head on by a drunk driver?

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I hope the father and daughter are making a speedy recovery.

For "Rollover Facts" go to the "General Viper Discussion"!

 

[joe117]

Craig, I think he only responds to the words, "driving school".

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

It's quite apparent that's the only response he'll give when he knows that's an argument he can't win.


You contracted cancer??? Shoulda gone to driving school. *******!

 

[cstegall]

KUDOS TO CRAIG

It's great that this thread, started with concern and worry, has developed into a real discussion about a very, very real problem with these cars. It seems to me that all Craig is trying to do is bring some much needed attention to an "accident" waiting to happen. Others seem to think that by "working around" the problem that DC will continue to produce the car without getting into the liability ravaged racing scene. I am sure that lawyers, lawsuits and payouts have contributed to the lack of safety protection on these convertibles and will probably continue to do so...but stopping those voices that advocate safety is not the answer. Fixing the problem is. Learning to drive the car is a must but most folks out there find that they can buy a Hummer, Benz, Cadillac or VIPER for about the same money. Those adrenaline junkies that either didn't get enough when young or are fighting for more now are the ones that this type of accident often happens to...and isn't that what most of us are...in some form...adrenaline junkies. We like speed, we like torque and we like exclusivity...we just need safety to coincide with all three.

Fred...these cars need some type of rollover protection. Period. My car would have killed the occupants had it not had the bar...and it is a moot point to say "but he should know how to drive before getting in the car"...some fear of the car is good...trust in how the car can handle a problem is better.

Driver is out of the hospital. Daughter is still in. Both will recover.
Thank you all for your concerns and thoughts.


Clark

 

[Cris]

New link for rollover -post your comments there if you wish.

http://vca2.viperclub.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=genvipdis&amp;Number=496643&amp;page=0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=7&amp;fpart=1

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Clark,

Glad they will both recover! That is great!

There is no problem with the Viper it is the driver! These cars have great brakes, low center of gravity, huge tires for maximum grip.

"My car would have killed the occupants had it not had the bar...and it is a moot point to say "but he should know how to drive before getting in the car"...some fear of the car is good...trust in how the car can handle a problem is better."


A couple points:
1. The car reacted to input from the driver! It did nothing by itself.
2. You assume the bar saved them it in reality may have caused the injuries! Look at the high speed Viper Crash, no roll bar, in the EU equivalent of the Gum Ball Rally. They did need hospital care but they were able to walk away.
3. Want to prevent this from happening? If yes encourage all drivers to learn how to drive before they push their car. Take the cars to a track with Viper Days where safety is a major emphasis and reckless drivers are booted. Do not let friends drive you car.

It is really easy be responsible for your actions.

Take some time and read the statistics on accidents. .7% of fatal all(roll over, head-on etc.) fatal accidents were in convertibles! SUV's highest 35% of roll over fatal and 13% of all fatal accidents are SUV's. 4 door sedans 29% of fatal accidents, 15% rollover are fatal. Major cause of death no seat belts used, cause 40 alcohol related.

Look at the facts: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/departments/nrd-30/ncsa/

 

[KaiPL]

2. You assume the bar saved them it in reality may have caused the injuries! Look at the high speed Viper Crash, no roll bar, in the EU equivalent of the Gum Ball Rally. They did need hospital care but they were able to walk away.

The Euro Gumball Viper that rolled was equipped with an Autoform roll bar.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Clark,

Glad they will both recover! That is great!

There is no problem with the Viper it is the driver! These cars have great brakes, low center of gravity, huge tires for maximum grip.

"My car would have killed the occupants had it not had the bar...and it is a moot point to say "but he should know how to drive before getting in the car"...some fear of the car is good...trust in how the car can handle a problem is better."


A couple points:
1. The car reacted to input from the driver! It did nothing by itself.
2. You assume the bar saved them it in reality may have caused the injuries! Look at the high speed Viper Crash, no roll bar, in the EU equivalent of the Gum Ball Rally. They did need hospital care but they were able to walk away.
3. Want to prevent this from happening? If yes encourage all drivers to learn how to drive before they push their car. Take the cars to a track with Viper Days where safety is a major emphasis and reckless drivers are booted. Do not let friends drive you car.

It is really easy be responsible for your actions.

Take some time and read the statistics on accidents. .7% of fatal all(roll over, head-on etc.) fatal accidents were in convertibles! SUV's highest 35% of roll over fatal and 13% of all fatal accidents are SUV's. 4 door sedans 29% of fatal accidents, 15% rollover are fatal. Major cause of death no seat belts used, cause 40 alcohol related.

Look at the facts: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/departments/nrd-30/ncsa/

Can you just please answer the question?

What about accidents that are of NO FAULT to the driver???? What then???

 

[joe117]

Fred says,
"Take some time and read the statistics on accidents"

The statistics on convertibles are only useful if one knew the percentage of convertibles in the population of cars on the road.

Also, the population of convertibles that are on the road, includes a higher percentage of the most powerful cars than other groups.

It probably also includes a higher number of younger drivers.

None of those statistics mean much without data on the numbers of the types of those vehicles in the road population.

The convertible is an easy type to categorize, but how about SUVs?

I think Suburban or Navigator or H2 but how many Rav4s and Suzukis are in the SUV statistics?

Sure, some cars are more dangerous than others. But the statistics you show dont provide enough information to make any safety decisions.

Looking at the link, an example of the problem with the statistics jumps right out.
Fatal accidents, 2003
Cars, 26,169
Motorcycles, 3751

There you go, more people were killed in cars than on bikes.
What do you get from that bit of Government information? If you didn't know better, would you think bikes were safer?

Do you think my Suburban has a better chance of a roll over?
Well, even if it did, would I be safer on the road in that big truck than I would in a Honda Civic? I think so, but those statistics cant give the answer.

I'll bet that big and heavy trumps anything else in overall safety in all kinds of crashes.

 

[Janni]

2. You assume the bar saved them it in reality may have caused the injuries! Look at the high speed Viper Crash, no roll bar, in the EU equivalent of the Gum Ball Rally. They did need hospital care but they were able to walk away.

The Euro Gumball Viper that rolled was equipped with an Autoform roll bar.

Fred,
Do you try to play the straight man? I mean you've proven other peoples' points twice now....

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I play the honest game!

I have said several times it would be nice if the Roll Bar were functional!

The roll bar gets mixed in with taking responsibility for your actions and not blaming a car a drivers lack of control.

What do you not get?

 

[Janni]

What I don't get Fred is that you stated that the Gumball 3000 / Torquenstein car's occupants were able to walk away and that the car didn't have a rollbar. That was wrong.

In reality, the car DID have an Autoform rollbar - and it probably contributed to their ability to walk away.

Previously, you pointed out that the new SL series Merc didn't have a roll bar and that was wrong - as is has a pop-up rollbar to provide protection.

It is irresponsible for a manufacturer to produce a car with this much HP/TQ that costs this much money that does not have a rollbar. Mercedes Benz understands that. The Torquenstein folks understood that. We'd like Dodge to understand that.

The Porsche Boxster has a set of roll hoops that are integrated into the frame and will provide rollover protection. To place those goofy little hoops on the SRT that "look" like roll hoops is "poser" and the Viper has never been about poser (sorry Vipermad)

"playing the straight man" means that you set up the next joke for the next person - or in this case, you gave info that proves others points.....

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Janni,

Gumball 3000 I saw the car roll but did not remember seeing the roll bar. If it had one fantastic, you got me there!

SL please show me where I said it did not have a roll over device? I posted the link showing all its features for 100,000+++ dollars!

Again agree about the roll bar.

What is your position on driver responsibility for car control?

Is the driver responsible for car control?
It the Car responsible for car control?