some positive thoughts for a bad situation...

[Craig 201 MPH]

Janni,

Gumball 3000 I saw the car roll but did not remember seeing the roll bar. If it had one fantastic, you got me there!

SL please show me where I said it did not have a roll over device? I posted the link showing all its features for 100,000+++ dollars!

Again agree about the roll bar.

What is your position on driver responsibility for car control?

Is the driver responsible for car control?
It the Car responsible for car control?

What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????
What about when the driver is not at fault????????

Stop avoiding the question.

 

[Hisserman]

I think one of the problems with the SRT-10 is that it has those cosmetic hoops which some unsuspecting (unthinking?) drivers assume are functional. Not that this is going to improve anyone's driving, but some have a false sense of security.

 

[Janni]

The driver is responsible for car control. I am against electronic nannies. However, I do believe that they are going to be unavoidable if the car continues to increase in HP and TQ. We are already seeing WAY more Gen III totals than we see in the Gen I / Gen II forums (even with the Gen I/ Gen II cars becoming more affordable - and therefore being driven by younger dirvers....hmmm....) I believe this is because the Gen III attracts a different buyer - one that did not buy the previous cars because they were too "wild" either from a styling standpoint, or from a "livability" (is that a word?) standpoint. They are overall unprepared for a car to act like a Viper when it looks more "sophisticated".

I think the electronics and other "safety" devices are needed in some ways to protect the cars from the drivers! And long term, to allow the car to survive in today's litigous society.

The roll bar issue is separate. The M-B pop-up system is also in the less expensive SL 500 (MSRP $90K) getting close to Viper, no? It's not a cost issue. It's not a driver aid issue. It's the right thing to do in a convertible with this kind of power.

And finally - there are accidents that are not the fault of the driver. They MAY result in a rollover. There are some things you cannot attribute to driver error and for $85K, there should be a reasonable roll bar solution in a stock Viper.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Janni,

Agree 100% the GEN III is a little more main stream with a real rag top, really great brakes, and great handling. Driver that are more familiar with Corvette's, Mustangs, Porsche's, Ferrari's are buying Vipers. The Viper is still raw performance that requires a driver pay attention and drive the car not talk on a cell phone with cruse control on. Putting the electronic control systems will give more drivers a feeling of security and that is totally the wrong think to due, in my opinion. Looking at the crash statics it is obvious that 4 door sedans, SUV' and light trucks will have the most to impact on fatal accidents. The fatal accidents and with serious injury have all been driver related. I think the decorative Roll Bar needs to be a real roll bar and it would be a bonus to have it incorporated in the Coupe.

As younger drivers gain access to high performance cars there will be more of these cars crashed based on the statics that show Driver Involvement Rates per 100,000 licensed drivers by age and sex.
highest to lowest follows:

For Males
16-20 85.3
21-24 69.28
25-34 46.13
35-44 39.43
45-54 35.28
55-64 30.55
65-74 27.52
>75 37.54

The Female rates are approx. 1/3 of the male rates.

If there is an increase in accident rates it may be due to the younger drivers with higher accident rates combined with drivers who think the GENIII Viper is a tamed Snake!

The last Vehicle to actually contribute to accidents was the Ford SUV/Firestone mess where the average driver would experience a blowout and lack the tools to control the top heavy SUV.

Again is really boils down to drivers taking responsibility for driving. Ask the typical driver How often do you check your vehicles tires including pressure? Improper tire care is a potential catastrophic event that will put the untrained driver at major risk as well as the trained driver(but to a less extent).

Everyone Drive safely, stay within your limits of car control. I would love to see this organization get behind driver education to reduce accident rates. And do not let friends drive your high performance car, and explain that you care for them.

And if you push the go pedal know how to control the resulting events.

Take a driving school(with Vipers), go to Viper Days and autocross events to get a feel for your limist and the cars limits.

http://norcal.viperclub.org/event_detail.php?event=1106001337

 

[Cris]

Fred, you really are crazy. Statements like "The last Vehicle to actually contribute to accidents was the ..." are really disconcerting. All vehicles play a part in accidents. The degree varies of course. If th eviper was only able to attain 5 mph the injury rate would be lower. Thus the fact it can go faster is a contribution to the increased rate.

Your use of statistics is quite funny also. For any comparison you need baselines. Statistics like (this is made up just for an example): 90% of Viper accidents were by male drivers. Therefore male drivers are 9 times more dangerous. Correct conclusion? Of course not since you have no idea what the driver population is. It could be 95% male and indicate that males are actually safer. But unless you know that attribute the statistic is useless.

That is the same as your convertible stat. You never answered what the mileage basis of convertibles was in comparison to the other vehicles. Therefore the 7% stat was USELESS.

And if you think that the higher price Gen III demographic has shifted to younger owners/drivers than I believe you need data to support that rather than conjecture.

All-in-all I believe statistics would indicate that all Vipers have higher than average rates of collisions, single car accidents and probably rollovers. I do not have the stats but we have heard enough examples through th eyears to know that it is a relatively high number. Given that how can anyone support a lower degree of rollover protection than many convertibles available at half the cost?

 

[cstegall]

I gotta admit that Fred is about to convince me that a driving school is in my future...and I wasn't involved in the accident!

But the car still needs rollover protection...besides the kind you get in driving school.

Clark

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Your driving school "skillz" are going to do you no good if they are spilled all over the road.

 

[MoparMan]

Since this thread is still going on I thought I'd put up a copy of the brief note and photo that appeared in the Las Vegas Sun the day after the accident. Hopefully, the daughter will be out of the hospital soon.

Anyway, here's the link: http://www.nevadavipers.com/rollover.htm

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Hope the daughter recovers quickly and without permanent damage.

Want to enjoy the maximum performance of these cars go to Viper Days and/or autocrossing take a Performance Driving School, put your skill to the test in a controlled environment. Do not let friends drive your car. I hate to see and hear of serious accidents. Must come from my younger years living in rural WV adjacent to a 90 degree turn that if missed(happened 3 or 4 times when living there) sent you into a creek about 40 feet below. I remember hearing the sounds of metal impacting rocks and trees and the sound of glass shattering. Horrible sounds!

Be Safe!

 

[cstegall]

....daughter is doing much better.

Clark

 

[joe117]

"I remember hearing the sounds of metal impacting rocks and trees and the sound of glass shattering. Horrible sounds!"

And you ran out and shouted to them that they should have gone to driving school.....

Calm down Fred
Just kidding......

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

joe,

I was about 7-10 yrs old at the time so me trust when I say school was NOT the most popular thing on my mind!


But to those who do not race as a hobby or professionally and who have not taken a Performance Driving what is your point of reference for your expertise regarding Performance Driving?

If you choose to knock a course that provides a foundation to car control which in turn should reduce the likely hood of one exceeding their car control limits, please explain why? What experience do you have to put down a Driving School? Please tell us!

 

[GR8_ASP]

Fred, I am not knocking drivers schools. I in fact have attended a couple plus taken part in track activities many times. But I do not think for a moment that my own skill (or lack thereof) will be the sole reason to cause or avoid an accident.

I have spun out on the street twice (with the old XGT-Z tires) when not really pushing the envelope. And the cars response was so unpredictable and rapid that all I could do was hang on for the ride. Thankfully neither was serious. But it did teach me some things about the Gen I with the OEM tires. That combination should have had a warning as the tires lack of progressivity, especially when cold, coupled with the Gen I suspension was a recipe for disaster. Since then the OEM tires and suspension improvements have virtually eliminated the snap oversteer that many of us experienced back then.

Back to the original assertion, that is that the SRT should have better (or really any) rollover protection. Absolutely. I think about that every time I take a corner at anything close to max speed. The thought that all it would take is some misplaced gravel, a rapid loss of tire pressure or other malady, and it would be good bye ugly world. Or maybe it would be a avoidance manuever (to avoid a deer for instance) that would initiate things. I can imagine a multitude of conditions that could result in a rollover where drivers school could only mitigate the issue, and in all probability would not prevent an accident from occuring. In those cases I want passive (or active like MB) protection to save my butt.

My $0.02

 

[HiYoSilver]

Interesting how recent Vette convertibles don't even have a "rollbar type " protrusions, only a small raised cowl behind each headrest. So there is not even "implied rollover protection".
I would hope that a fix could better protect us in our SRT's. Perhaps injecting a material into the aluminum tubes could increase their rigidity & hence compression strength. Then a foam or other liquid>solid material could be INJECTED into each rollhoop tube.

 

[joe117]

Fred,
I don't know what goes on at a driving school. How about filling me in.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

joe117,

Here is a link to Skip Barber with a description of various schools.

http://www.skipbarber.com/drivingschool/default.asp?sel=

 

[DEADEYE]

Interesting how recent Vette convertibles don't even have a "rollbar type " protrusions, only a small raised cowl behind each headrest. So there is not even "implied rollover protection".I would hope that a fix could better protect us in our SRT's. Perhaps injecting a material into the aluminum tubes could increase their rigidity & hence compression strength. Then a foam or other liquid>solid material could be INJECTED into each rollhoop tube.

I remember reading somewhere that the windshield on the corvette vert can support the cars weight if it were to overturn. I don't see how this is possible but I did read it.

 

[repiv]

For all who have responded to this thread with well wishes for my daughter and myself, thank you very much. She is out of the hospital and on her way to a 100% recovery. Short of the samll metal plate in her head, she had a few other minor scrapes and is completely herself at this point. I suffered a cracked vertebra, am expected to be fully healed in 6 weeks.
The original post on this thread was a note about the autoform rollbar and the 5 point belts. It is my belief that those two additions to the vehicle enabled us to sustain only moderate injuries that we will fully recover from.
To clarify what happened, my friend was intentind to purchase a 430. He and I got to talking about the fact I was going to buy a viper in a month or so (after I bought my wife her (S500). We decided we would buy a viper together, and I would buy him out when his 430 was available to him. In the interim, I told him about this board and the viperalley board, and pointed him in the direction of Clark's car. He, being the impulsive guy I love, couldn't wait the 2-3 weeks it was going to take me to satisfy my promise to the wife, so he bought the car from Clark, and I was to fulfill my half of the purchase after the S500. So what could very easily seem to be a couple of idiots racing around a new high powered vehicle was not that. I probably knew more about the srt 10 than my buddy did at the time. I have spent probably 50-60 hrs over the last 3 months reading nealry every one of the posts and information you good folks have been kind enough to post on these boards and the viperalley about the gen III viper. All of this was done in preparation and education for my planned feb. purchase of my viper.
My friend has had multiple high powered vehicles and race bikes, and I have driven multiple high powered vehicles my entire life (my dad and I had a 375HP Mustang GT when I was 19 yrs old). We both had a tremedous level of respect for this awesomely powered vehicle before it showed up, and treated it as such.
Now to get what happened that day (police and wintess recounts) as nor I or my daughter have any recollection of anything that happened the entire day of the accident, to include the accident.
The police have done their speed study (or whatever it is called) and I was going 66 MPH. There was NO wheelspin (black marks on road) or skid marks form the brakes being jumped on. We were entering the freeway from an onramp, and a witness from 5 cars behind me told me that another vehicle came into the lane at or near the same point I was entering the travel lane. I cut the wheel to the right, over correcting when considering the capabilities of the car, and within 10 feet I was in 8-12 deep rockscape which is immediately next to the breakdown lanes in the freeways in Vegas. The car was sideways nearly immediately (no traction for any vehicle on loose rock), digging the car into the rocks, causing the car to flip and get airborn. The embankment was a downhill grade, the car landed about 20' from the initial flip point and appeared to roll 1-2 more times, through a concrete drain culvert. The autorform bar on my daughters side appears to actually have been bent slightly down and forward, indicating great force on her side of the vehicle and saving her life for sure. The windshield webbed up top, but strangely did not collapse or get too bent out of shape.
In any event, I just wanted to post to let you folks know we are OK and that this particluar viper accident was just that, and accident that could have happened in my 2003 range rover of my wifes 1998 CLK.
I personally think these boards are very informative to new buyers (and current owners), and although in my case there was an accident, I feel relieved that it was not through "horseplay" or irresponsible driving of a very high powered vehicle. I credit these boards for making me realize before the car was delivered that it is indeed a powerful car that commands every bit of your attention while driving it

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Thanks for the post, must have been scary as hell I bet. Was the pavement worn at all? These cars track like crazy through worn pavement and has scared the crap out of me a couple times.

 

[MoparMan]

repiv - if you want any help with your next Viper purchase or just want to hang out check out our VCA region at www.nevadavipers.com. We have monthly meetings at Hod Rod Grille the second Wednesday of the month at 630pm. You're more than welcome to come out.

 

[VPRVENM97]

repiv,

Thanks for coming on here and posting details of the event. It's always good to hear the story first hand rather then speculation. If was an unfortunate and terrible event that was just what it was...an accident. Glad to hear that you're ok and your daughter is doing better. Hope you're back in a Viper soon (preferably a coupe )

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Very glad daughter and father are doing well.