Spun rod bearing at 3-4 pistons

[Flyntgr]

I wonder how many of other VCA members have experienced spun bearings at 3-4 pistons on their Gen III's.
My car was originally a Chrysler executive car, and I bought it used with about 10,000 miles on it. Thank God it's still under the 3 year warranty! No telling how the car was abused BEFORE I got it. I've always taken good care of it over the term of my ownership, but my Vipertech says this failure process has been going on for a while in this engine. I have about 17,000 total miles on it. They will ship the engine to Arrow for rebuild, as I intend to keep the original engine with matching numbers.
My Vipertech says the #4 piston is the last in sequence to get oil from the oil pump, and this type failure is relatively the most common type of engine failure. Have any of you Viper owners had this happen to your Gen III?

 

[05Viper]

I have an 05, 22,000 miles, no problems like that.

 

[valentine_viper]

No problems here after 7300 miles.

The bearing failures I have heard about have been related to extended high G turns that cause the oil in the pan to slosh to one side and starve the pick-up. Maybe your car saw some had track use before you bought it? The Comp coupe swinging oil pick-up and pan are supposed to reduce the possibility of this happening, but they're pricey. Some people have said running an extra quart of oil may reduce the rish as well.

A dry sump oiling system would be nice, but the Z06s already have this and they still have had a lot of bearing failures anyway.

 

[Joseph Dell]

the #3/#4 rod bearing problem is a common one on the track but not in daily driving.

sounds like you might have gotten one of the few Zone Rendevouz cars! j/k !

JD

 

[Viper X]

Fortunately, the 2008's will have a comp coupe derived swing are oil pick up and a bigger / more efficient oil pump in a revised oil pan.

Meanwhile, get the comp coupe swing arm oil pickup and oil pan. It's about 2K and very good insurance if you track your car.

Dan

 

[Flyntgr]

Re: Preventing Spun rod bearing at 3-4 pistons

I had suspected that someone must have tracked this car in its early life, and you guys have the same thoughts as to the cause of its engine failure. I think I will ask Arrow to add the swing oil pickup and highflo oil pump, in case I want to do some autocross or other activity in the future. I have never done any racing event with this particular car, though in prior years I did those events repeatedly with my '96 GTS, having no problem in more than 40K miles. But these Gen III cars should be able to go around pylons without engine failure. Surely, the factory should fix this issue for ALL new Vipers; they can do it at manufacture easier and cheaper than an individual can. We all consider these cars "bullet proof", and this type failure detracts from that legend.

 

[Kenny]

Re: Preventing Spun rod bearing at 3-4 pistons

I had suspected that someone must have tracked this car in its early life, and you guys have the same thoughts as to the cause of its engine failure. I think I will ask Arrow to add the swing oil pickup and highflo oil pump, in case I want to do some autocross or other activity in the future. I have never done any racing event with this particular car, though in prior years I did those events repeatedly with my '96 GTS, having no problem in more than 40K miles. But these Gen III cars should be able to go around pylons without engine failure. Surely, the factory should fix this issue for ALL new Vipers; they can do it at manufacture easier and cheaper than an individual can. We all consider these cars "bullet proof", and this type failure detracts from that legend.

I don't think it's necessary if all you are going to be doing is killing cones. It's really weird to see the different results people have had with these cars. Some people are bone stock and have never had any issues even road racing their cars, while others have had the comp coupe pan/pickup and have still managed to oil starve the motor.

I'm waiting to see what comes out on the '08 and if it can be retrofitted. In the meantime, I'm still under warranty until August of 2008 and I know at the dealer I bought from (Huffines in Dallas) the Viper tech there told me when I asked about the known oil starvation issues that these cars are meant to be raced and if you haven't modified the car and you end up having an engine problem from oil starvation on the track it would be warranteed. Period.

Granted, if I ever had such a problem, I would ship the car to them for service, because I think it's all about how the dealer presents it to DC as to whether you get covered or not. Track use is not abuse for the Viper, although the local (non-Viper savvy) dealer may not agree.

 

[Kai SRT10]

Happened to me (on the track.)

I had the comp coupe oil pan installed, but I guess it wasn't enough.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I am working on a retrofit kit for the 2003-2006 cars which will utilize all of the 2008 components. It is well under way at this point, and WILL be completed and available before the end of this season assuming the components will continue to be available from Dodge.

There are quite a few machining changes that have to be made to the parts initially, but it will be a bolt-on system otherwise and come with every last nut and bolt you need to make it work. I would advise anyone thinking of the Comp Coupe system to hold off for now, as the CC system will be obsolete very soon, and this package I am working on wont be a whole lote more expensive than the CC system, but be WORLDS better, and also solve the low oil pressure problems of the 2005-2006 cars. The CC system and OEM SRT oil system have some severe design deficiencies which have now been addressed.

 

[lankhoss]

Don't know which bearings they were, but a guy I knew with a 2004 SRT spun a bearing while racing me on the highway.

Of course, he was only putting 8 quarts of oil in instead of 10, so I don't know if this is a related incident or not.

 

[SylvanSRT]

BTW whatever your intention of having a matching numbers engine is you may not get the same engine back. This is not really a problem with these cars(actually more comon than not) and wont really affect the value. Your Arrow rebuild will be a much stronger better built motor.

 

[Boxer12]

Happened to me (on the track.)

I had the comp coupe oil pan installed, but I guess it wasn't enough.

Did you have in installed from the get-go?

 

[Boxer12]

I am working on a retrofit kit for the 2003-2006 cars which will utilize all of the 2008 components. It is well under way at this point, and WILL be completed and available before the end of this season assuming the components will continue to be available from Dodge.

There are quite a few machining changes that have to be made to the parts initially, but it will be a bolt-on system otherwise and come with every last nut and bolt you need to make it work. I would advise anyone thinking of the Comp Coupe system to hold off for now, as the CC system will be obsolete very soon, and this package I am working on wont be a whole lote more expensive than the CC system, but be WORLDS better, and also solve the low oil pressure problems of the 2005-2006 cars. The CC system and OEM SRT oil system have some severe design deficiencies which have now been addressed.

Crap, maybe I should wait a bit and make CERTAIN these issues have been addressed successfully before trading in my good 00 GTS for an 08 SRT10? What do you think? Have these parts been tested? By whom? In what series?

 

[Kai SRT10]

Did you have in installed from the get-go?

Yes, it was the 2nd mod I ever put on my car (after the autoform roll bar.)

I never tracked the car without the CC pan.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Crap, maybe I should wait a bit and make CERTAIN these issues have been addressed successfully before trading in my good 00 GTS for an 08 SRT10? What do you think? Have these parts been tested? By whom? In what series?

The oiling system from the 08 has addressed every single problem that the Viper has ever had with oiling systems. From a design standpoint, it is excellent. I cannot see how there will be any problems with it from what I can see here.

SRT went into this new oiling system KNOWING that there was oiling issues in the Viper. I am sure it has been tested quite extensively to prevent a re-run of the previous issues.

Over the 03-06 cars, the new oiling system includes:

-180 degree Main Bearings Vs 120
-Larger Oil Pump Volume
-Larger inlet tube to pump
-Smoothed radius bends throughout system
-swinging oil pickup with CORRECT sweeps
-revised pan baffling
-revised internal galleries to prevent cavitation
-shuttle-valve style relief valve
-new oil filter style

 

[Flyntgr]

Since I got my engine back from Arrow, with the added swing oil pickup which I paid extra for, my oil pressure is steady at 75lbs after warmup, unless I slow the rpm's to under 2,000. In fact, pressure is 99lbs at startup. I haven't put it on a road course or even timed a quarter mile yet, but the engine is stronger and the pressure looks better than on any of my previous Vipers. I think this rebuild will be worth the extra bucks I spent on the oil pickup upgrade.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Since I got my engine back from Arrow, with the added swing oil pickup which I paid extra for, my oil pressure is steady at 75lbs after warmup, unless I slow the rpm's to under 2,000. In fact, pressure is 99lbs at startup. I haven't put it on a road course or even timed a quarter mile yet, but the engine is stronger and the pressure looks better than on any of my previous Vipers. I think this rebuild will be worth the extra bucks I spent on the oil pickup upgrade.

The main problem with the oil systems isnt pressure- it is the pickup itself and cavitation, leading to pressure spikes. The CC system helps the pickup issue about 50%, but the cavitation issue remains untouched, as it is the pump/timing cover design.

 

[Flyntgr]

You obviously know much more than I, so may I ask what is meant by the term "cavitation"? Thanks!

 

[SylvanSRT]

impeller driving/moving the oil causes the oil to bubble/froth inside the system sending either air pockets or frothed oil down line in system instead of a steady flow of liquid. Which you might guess is not good for an engine.

 

[Viper Specialty]

impeller driving/moving the oil causes the oil to bubble/froth inside the system sending either air pockets or frothed oil down line in system instead of a steady flow of liquid. Which you might guess is not good for an engine.

Bingo.

However, I think it should be added that this results in pressure spike of the 0-100-0-100-0 variety... not good. It is caused from air being recirculated through the pressure relief or being sucked up by the pickup where vacuum can expand the gas volume, until it goes through the pump where it is then compressed, basically slamming the volume back down to a small level- not good for pumps either as it is a violent process.

 

[Vypr Phil]

No problems here after 7300 miles.

The bearing failures I have heard about have been related to extended high G turns that cause the oil in the pan to slosh to one side and starve the pick-up.

The main problem with the oil systems isnt pressure- it is the pickup itself and cavitation, leading to pressure spikes. The CC system helps the pickup issue about 50%, but the cavitation issue remains untouched, as it is the pump/timing cover design.

Daniel, your comment about CC systems sounds interesting.

Based on your statement we should see massive engine failures in the VRL, World Challenge and other races Comp Coupes participate. I am not sure that I have seen or heard of many CC engine failures to date. I am very interested in your oil swing-arm pick-up "with the correct bends", your recommendation for pressure relief valve and whatever else you recommend to improve on the CC system presently installed on my 2005 SRT-10 (By DC Performance in Los Angeles).

I had my oil pan replaced with the CC system for my first Viper Days experience, as I have heard and read on this board about many instances where the bearing failure mentioned at the beginning of this thread sems to be a fairy common occurence. Sure enough, one of my SoCal VCA friends left with his late model SRT-10 on a flat bed tow truck after precisely experiencing this failure.

If I reduced my chance of this happening by only 50%, then I must say that I would lose a lot of confidence in my car, as I intend to subject it to intense and spirited track use.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Hello Vypr Phil,

I suspect that the actual Comp Coupe engines are generally rebuilt before failures occur, or perhaps since its an actual race car, the teams/owners just dont talk as much about failures as the street cars- since it is pretty much an expected part of racing. Those are the only two reasons I can really come up with, as the street cars running the Comp Coupe pans are surely experiencing failures on a regular basis- and they have the same engine overall.

This system is not yet completed, but it is in the works. There is an availability issue on some of the components- I can make one-off's, to complete my "test kit", but it would cost a small fortune to mass produce them at this time. I am waiting for Dodge to straighten out the 2008 ordering system so I can obtain the main parts from them as a starting point, and modify them into the correct configurations.

These will be COMPLETE upgrade kits. Literally, everything bolted to the bottom and front of the engine block will be replaced, as well as peripherals needed to make it work. They are modified 2008 components to fit 2003-2006 cars. (the 2008 components are based on the CC system, but fix all of its downfalls, as well as fix the actual oil pump/relief issues from the 2003-2006 cars.)

 

[Vypr Phil]

Hello Daniel,

Thanks for your explanation. Let me know when your upgrade kit will be available.

As somebody who is seriously considering the purchase of a CC for next season, I have done a considerable amount of research and have talked to quite a few CC owners, drivers and support personel. To date, I cannot say that anybody mentioned an engine failure due to loss of oil pressure in a CC.

The general comment I hear: "as bullet-proof a race car one could ever wish for".

If any CC owners/drivers out there read this thread, would you be kind enough and post your opinion and/or experience on this matter? Or send me a PM.

Many thanks,

Vypr Phil

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

If the pickup grabs air, the bubble is expanded under suction in the oil pick up tube, compressed in the pump, and potentially oil is circulated with this entrained air.

Cavitation is a pump issue when the local pressure near a vane becomes low enough to allow the fluid to vaporize, after which it may suddenly collapse. The collapse is forceful enough to remove metal.

The frequency (as in pressure oscillations, not how often it occurs) must be very high. Imagine trying to **** on a straw fast enough to vaporize oil in a cup.

In any case, the damage from cavitation is on the pump vanes or impeller. And in true cavitation, there is no entrained bubble that continues downstream - the collapse happened already. Is there more of an explanation about why we're using the term cavitation in relation to (much further downstream) bearing failures?

 

[INSOMNIAC]

I am working on a retrofit kit for the 2003-2006 cars which will utilize all of the 2008 components. It is well under way at this point, and WILL be completed and available before the end of this season assuming the components will continue to be available from Dodge.

There are quite a few machining changes that have to be made to the parts initially, but it will be a bolt-on system otherwise and come with every last nut and bolt you need to make it work. I would advise anyone thinking of the Comp Coupe system to hold off for now, as the CC system will be obsolete very soon, and this package I am working on wont be a whole lote more expensive than the CC system, but be WORLDS better, and also solve the low oil pressure problems of the 2005-2006 cars. The CC system and OEM SRT oil system have some severe design deficiencies which have now been addressed.

Weren’t you working on a bolt on dry sump kit for GEN3’s that would retain the stock AC, etc?

What happened with that project?

 

[Vypr Phil]

If the pickup grabs air, the bubble is expanded under suction in the oil pick up tube, compressed in the pump, and potentially oil is circulated with this entrained air.

Precisely!

The whole point here is to not pick up any air, at any time.

It seems the stock Viper does pick up air during long sweeper turns.

As it was explained to me, the oil will move towards the outside of the turn and allowing the oil pick up to **** air (leading to cavitation).

I was assured that a CC oil pan and a properly installed swing arm pick-up would alleviate this problem.

Is there a cavitiation problem if the engine runs for extended amounts of time near redline? Could cavitation occur solely from over-revving the engine or revving it at high rpm?

What has not been discussed so far in this thread is oil level.

Due to the history here, I made sure that my oil level was at the top of the dipstick mark after each session (as my car had only about 3,500 miles on it, I never had to add any oil during 3 days of very spirited driving, pulling the highest g-forces my run-flats would allow).

Question to the initiated here: how low is too low an oil level for track activities? One could have the CC system, but if it is low on oil, I can certainly see how an engine failure could still occur.

Daniel, you mention a problem with the pump/timing cover; what specifically is the problem here and do you have a fix for this?

Thanks to everybody who contributes to this thread, as I believe it is a serious issue for the "Track Rats" among us.

I am also happy yo hear that 2008 models will have all of this taken care of; I guess this is the benefit to the factory that Viper owners are one of the most engagingly interactive group in factory/enthusiastic owner relationship.

Vypr Phil

 

[Viper Specialty]

If the pickup grabs air, the bubble is expanded under suction in the oil pick up tube, compressed in the pump, and potentially oil is circulated with this entrained air.

Cavitation is a pump issue when the local pressure near a vane becomes low enough to allow the fluid to vaporize, after which it may suddenly collapse. The collapse is forceful enough to remove metal.

The frequency (as in pressure oscillations, not how often it occurs) must be very high. Imagine trying to **** on a straw fast enough to vaporize oil in a cup.

In any case, the damage from cavitation is on the pump vanes or impeller. And in true cavitation, there is no entrained bubble that continues downstream - the collapse happened already. Is there more of an explanation about why we're using the term cavitation in relation to (much further downstream) bearing failures?

Hello Tom,

I highly doubt the system is experiencing TRUE cavitation. What I understand to be the problem is that the vacuum is high enough to take any existing air bubbles in the system, and expand them to a high enough volume to interfere with pump performance.

There are two methods for this happening. The first is simply sucking up air into the inlet where it will be cycled through the pump. The second, is pushing these compressed bubbles through the relief valve- which recirculates back into the pickup RIGHT NEXT to the pump inlet- bad move in this case.

The bearing failures are related to pressure spiking, as every time this occurs, the pump has to re-prime itself. Under load at high RPMs (where it is likely to occur) the momentary starvation over time causes the damage.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Weren’t you working on a bolt on dry sump kit for GEN3’s that would retain the stock AC, etc?

What happened with that project?

Scrapped that project. It was going to come out WAAAY to expensive to retain the A/C, and it would not have worked with Paxton cars... would have been a very difficult to market item.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Precisely!

The whole point here is to not pick up any air, at any time.

It seems the stock Viper does pick up air during long sweeper turns.

As it was explained to me, the oil will move towards the outside of the turn and allowing the oil pick up to **** air (leading to cavitation).

I was assured that a CC oil pan and a properly installed swing arm pick-up would alleviate this problem.

Is there a cavitiation problem if the engine runs for extended amounts of time near redline? Could cavitation occur solely from over-revving the engine or revving it at high rpm?

What has not been discussed so far in this thread is oil level.

Due to the history here, I made sure that my oil level was at the top of the dipstick mark after each session (as my car had only about 3,500 miles on it, I never had to add any oil during 3 days of very spirited driving, pulling the highest g-forces my run-flats would allow).

Question to the initiated here: how low is too low an oil level for track activities? One could have the CC system, but if it is low on oil, I can certainly see how an engine failure could still occur.

Daniel, you mention a problem with the pump/timing cover; what specifically is the problem here and do you have a fix for this?

Thanks to everybody who contributes to this thread, as I believe it is a serious issue for the "Track Rats" among us.

I am also happy yo hear that 2008 models will have all of this taken care of; I guess this is the benefit to the factory that Viper owners are one of the most engagingly interactive group in factory/enthusiastic owner relationship.

Vypr Phil

1. A comp Coupe System will help, but it has two huge downfalls: It only swings ONE direction, and the swingarm is positioned FAR forward in the pan- a big problem if you have big power. Starvation can occur under acceleration.

2. Yes, the oiling system issues on the SRT are aggravated by High-RPM.

3. The main issues is that the galleries in the system are too small (higher vacuum during pickup) the relief valve dumps right into the inlet (introducing compressued gas bubbles which expand under vacuum), and the gerotor design is wide, with too little vane volume, causing a long distance with little inlet area, which is needed to fill the vanes while the gerotor sweeps- causing vacuum even in the gerotor vanes themselves.

The new design has MUCH larger oil galleries, it has a new style relief valve, and the galleries are designed to expel air before it goes through the relief and back into the inlet. the pump is also a large volume, but the rotors are narrower, allowing easier gerotor filling.

 

[Vypr Phil]

Thanks Daniel!

I am very impressed with your specific Viper knowledge!

Sounds like oil pressure might be OK for normal street driving but volume of oil would be insufficient under severe conditions.

Interesting observation on the swing arm pick-up; on the installed engine, in which direction will the arm move, driver's side (assuming LHD) or other side?

Maybe waiting for the 2008 model is the smarter path than try to fix what seems to be a seriously compromised situation on Gen3 engines.

Obviously, the factory knows this from experience as they must have honored a large amount of warranty claims from these built-in shortcomings (I am not quite ready to call them defects), and took the smart path by eliminating all of these issues with the 08 redesign.

Vypr Phil