SRT Track Limitations

[SRTRICK]

The Discussion would not be moot just because of a factory hardtop, the attachment of a hardtop to a convertible body is generally mounted to body points & these mounts would most likely pull out in a severe rolling crash. only a top which incorporates some sort of roll structure and attaches to frame points would have any positive effect on roll worthiness. I am unaware of any factory or aftermarket hardtops which incorporate such a mounting system. In SCCA spec mazda, for example, in regions where a hardtop is required, it is in addition to the roll cage. The cage provides the roll protection. Also, the roll cage prevents the top from slicing off the drivers head in the event it becomes unattached. The hardtop primarily provides protection from human body parts being ground into the pavement, and loose flying car and structure parts from entering the cockpit.
So, a hardtop that is not accompanied by a roll cage can not provide adequate protection from a rollover crash and can introduce other dangers of its own in any violent crash. I'm not saying that in exactly the right circumstance a top might not provide some limited protection if a car were to come to a rest on it's side & just barely roll on to the roof, but such a circumstance would be very hard to accomplish.

 

[SRTRICK]

I also agree with Bob about the living forever thing, I wish that we were still in the days where signing a waiver really meant somthing. I am very careful on a racetrack & would be willing to take the risk of a part breaking at exactly the wrong time. It would be a bummer to end up Chris Reeved, however, so I guess it's better to be safe than sorry.

I am pretty sure they would black flag you for the "on the brakes" thing, by the way, you would have to be subtle enough that the slowdown was not noticable.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Just an honest question:

Why not just have a waiver and have the participants sign it?

 

[SRTRICK]

There is no guarantee that such a waiver would hold up in court these days, and beyond that, the people who organize these events are human and have to live with themselves. I know some of these people and many would have a very hard time forgetting about it if they let someone go out on the track in a situation that they felt was patently unsafe. I also have to point out that there are some Viper drivers who are less controlled about their driving than others and you can not count on common sense to keep people within their level of ability. I have seen some fairly hare brained behavior by a very few Viper drivers at even low speed events.
By the way you do sign a waiver.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

Thanks for the answer.

It's just too bad that if you want to enjoy yor car at the limits you have to hack it up.

 

[SRTRICK]

my understanding is that the autoform guys are trying to make the bar so that when it's removed the only evidence will be a few cuts in some carpeting. This should be fairly innocuous when the seats are in place.

 

[slaughterj]

Huh? Lowering the seats creates more head clearance, how would that help short drivers more than tall ones? What you are going for is 2" of clearance between the drivers helmet and a line drawn between the top of the rollbar and the windshield header. If the amount of clearance that can be created by raising the height of the rollbar is limited by the clearance to the convert. top, then added clearance can be created by lowering the seats. I fail to see how this would help short drivers more than tall ones? Please explain this to me.
Thanks in advance, Rick

Okay, here's the explanation, by way of example (#s are purely for sake of example). If you are 6' tall and are 2" over the roll bar with a helmet on, then the 2" drop will only bring you down to the roll bar, so you will still be lacking the 2" clearance you need. However, if you are shorter, e.g., 5'9" and therefore would be 1" under the roll bar with a helmet on, then the 2" drop will bring you to 3" under the roll bar, meaning you have the necessary clearance. Therefore, once you reach a certain height, you are screwed, even with a seat drop, but if you are shorter than that certain height, the seat drop will benefit you. Consequently, the seat drop will only benefit shorter drivers (but not those that are already short enough to fall under the 2" clearance with a helmet on, they are already fine).

 

[Bob Pommer]

It sounds like an engineering challenge for someone....

To make a roll cage which could be used for races and taken out for cruising....

Somehow design a mounting systems which could be installed and removed with a reasonable amount of effort. Sub 1 hour install time...

Hey they put a man on the moon....

Who ever does, should be able to sell them like hotcakes...

$$$$$

 

[Y2K5SRT]

BTW, wearing a helmet in the SRT is FAR tighter than the GTS. I was bumping my head continuously (6'0"), whereas with the GTS I had enough room to mount a cupholder on my helmet...

Chris

 

[Janni]

Chris, thanks for the visual. I am thinking your helmet cupholder was one of those dual beer holders with straw attachments that one sees at your high brow sporting events....

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Chris, thanks for the visual. I am thinking your helmet cupholder was one of those dual beer holders with straw attachments that one sees at your high brow sporting events....

Say, you must have seen me at the track afterall!

Chris

 

[Russ Oasis]

Guys,
Don't get down on Viper Days over safety requirements. Skip Thomas does a great job of balancing safety and speed. These cars are FAST on the track and there is always a possibility of a serious accident. Skip wants everyone to return home in one piece. Viper Days is not like a mass appeal driving school. You can drive as fast as your ability will allow you. That means that accidents happen. Nobody wants to roll in a convertible...right?

 

[SRTRICK]

slaughteri - I understand that there is a point where nothing will make the SRT trackable, but basically, a short person might not need to either raise the height of the roll bar or lower the seat height, such a "short" person would not benefit from the seat lowering. The taller one gets, the more advantageous it would be to lower the seat and raise the bar, up to the point where nothing will help. To me, at least, your description of the benefits of lowering the seat is counterintuitive to the situation. If you want a precise description, I suppose I should have included the statement that this will only help those up to a certain undetermined point, affected not only by the drivers overall height but also by the body proportions and weight and body contours of the person involved, but basically saying that lowering the seat helps a shorter rather than a taller driver seems backward from the general reality of the situation. I understand what you are getting at, but it doesn't seem to me that it would be the usual way of looking at it. <font color="blue"> IMHO only, of course. </font>
Perhaps my mind works differently than most.

 

[SylvanSRT]

Russ, I dont think that people are Down on Skip or Viper Days. They run a wonderful opperation. More like DC failing to keep w/ the yestertech theory. The bars on the SRT are "style", and in my eyes dead weight if they truly serve NO purpose except looks! This being the case they shouldn't be there all together! Everything else on the car with respect to the performance is very real, except these "Faux" rollbars. I just think the lack of forsite on DC's part will alienate SRT owners from the other activities that other viper owners have been able to enjoy since '92.

 

[Russ Oasis]

Sylvan,
I reread this string, and you're right. I must have seen the comment in another string. I just wanted to say that IMHO the restriction on racing without a rollbar was reasonable.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Russ, I agree that for racing in wheel to wheel events that a roll bar should be necessary. But would you say a roll bar is necessary for track instruction or drag racing? I am talking about the casual track use and not the purposeful racing perspective that I think you are referring to.

I think the comment above about the SRT having a non-functional cosmetic rollhoop (which is uncharacteristically non-Viperlike), while cars known for their more cosmentic touches provide real rollhoops. Real in the sense of providing some level of rollover protection, but not to the level of a true rollbar.

 

[SylvanSRT]

I don't think the restrictions are unreasonable, again thats why I put a real roll bar in my miata so i could do track days and driver eds. I just think its like giving the police toy guns to do their job. Great for looks just hope they dont have to use them!

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Interestingly enough, the various Porsche Club driving schools in this area let the convertibles run all day long - no mods or roll bars. I only know of one Viper that has flipped at the track, and that was a GTS that wasn't in the driving school (and a very entertaining Kansas City VCA member I might add):

You must be registered for see images

Definitely would NOT want to be in an SRT-10 in that position!

Chris

 

[slaughterj]

slaughteri - I understand that there is a point where nothing will make the SRT trackable, but basically, a short person might not need to either raise the height of the roll bar or lower the seat height, such a "short" person would not benefit from the seat lowering. The taller one gets, the more advantageous it would be to lower the seat and raise the bar, up to the point where nothing will help. To me, at least, your description of the benefits of lowering the seat is counterintuitive to the situation. If you want a precise description, I suppose I should have included the statement that this will only help those up to a certain undetermined point, affected not only by the drivers overall height but also by the body proportions and weight and body contours of the person involved, but basically saying that lowering the seat helps a shorter rather than a taller driver seems backward from the general reality of the situation. I understand what you are getting at, but it doesn't seem to me that it would be the usual way of looking at it. <font color="blue"> IMHO only, of course. </font>

I think we're understanding the same concept, just coming at it different ways Basically it's the middle section of driver height that will benefit from seat lowering
Perhaps my mind works differently than most.

 

[SRTRICK]

slaughteri - Okey Doke!

 

[garolittle]

Any of you photoshop guys care to provide us with an idea of what some of these roll bars would look like on an SRT?

 

[George Murray]

Whether by design or by mistake, the RT/10 targa bar DOES offer rollover protection. I rolled my yellow '95 (thanks to a drunken **********) in Dec '98, and got away with minor injuries. The car went down a guardrail inverted for almost 100 feet. Without that targa I would have been decapitated. The car was gracious enough to right itself and land on its feet somhow.

Both the RT/10 and I continue to enjoy life, as we were both repaired...and we both have scars!

 

[Y2K10 SRT#39]

Seems the only true recourse is to toss out the seat entirely. Use the three points, but get some foam to support the rest of you short folks. That's the only way SRT drivers will conform to the rules. Too bad JonB cancelled his track day to test these issues.

 

[Sonny 00 GTS ACR]

As Skip Thomas tells students at Viperdays, "your lap times are in some cases as fast or faster than some of the people runing in the race group - but you don't have any of the safety equipment that they do."

He's trying to make you think about what is at stake whenever you drive fast in a car either on the street or at the track. But even if his advice is ignored, most tracks still won't let you run a convertable without a rollcage. You may be the one in the car but the organization renting the track has liability to consider based on their experience and insurance arrangements.

Tracking your car is safe and a lot of fun, but odd things can happen and you should be properly prepared. The following is what I said about this subject the last time it was brought up.

"A well supervised day at the track is in most cases going to be safer than the drive to the facility. However, as with most things in life, strange things can sometimes occur. Your well focused and instructed driving might be flawless, but some small part may fail and send you on a different journey. This can happen on the street or at the track, but because of the higher average speeds experienced at one of these events, you should take proper precautions to make yourself safe. If something happens, you won't have the opportunity to say, "gee I guess I should have had a good roll bar installed".

It is very exciting to drive your street car on the track, and I highly recommend it, but you need to prepare yourself and your car for the experience. Safety should be the most important consideration. Only then can you be confident enough to drive your best.

People that enjoy tracking their car and get more serious about it ultimately end up with a non-streetable dedicated racecar. Whatever performance enhancements are made are usually more than equaled by safety improvements. It just makes good sense."

 

[GR8_ASP]

That is all well and good. However, I am not going to butcher my car in order to attend a track event. The roll bar requirement is as good as a mandate against SRT use.

But this is outside of my initial thought which is why is the rollover protection of the SRT is not on par with the RT/10. If it was this discussion would not be happening. I fear it is doubtful many owners will install a roll bar for an occasional drag strip event or drivers course at a track.

Also missed in this is that several competitor vehicles (read sports convertibles) include structural roll hoops. Given the Vipers standing in the sports category it seems crazy that it has less protection than a Z3, Z4, Boxster, SLK or similar car. Note the SLK even comes from DC so the reason cannot be corporate.

 

[Sonny 00 GTS ACR]

Ron -

You seem annoyed that "the roll bar requirement is as good as a mandate against SRT use" at track events. Would you suggest that it be waived if you only drive at "an occaisional drag strip or drivers course"? Your head and neck know nothing of whether you are participating for the first time or if you track your car every day. When you have a problem you are either properly prepared or you pay the price.

You go on to correctly point out the the manufacturer might have done more to address this issue. But do you really want to test the integrity of the mostly cosmetic roll hoops on any of the vehicles you mentioned as your full body weight hangs upside down and stretches the harness another inch or so?

I have seen the quality engineering that Archer Racing, Autoform and others have fabricated to meet the safety requirements of the many issues Viper owners have and I am confident that you won't have to "butcher" your car to have a safe and practical solution to this problem.

You have a beautiful car - be safe in it.

 

[Sonny 00 GTS ACR]

Call Archer and Autoform and tell them of your concerns.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Sonny,

I agree that a call to an aftermarket company is in order. But for me the the need for something unobtrusive and that can be used with the top up or down is mandatory. As an afterthought I now believe some improvement is necessary for street use. Even though I never plan to roll or flip my car (who does?), I have heard enough cases to warrant having reasonable rollover protection for the street. The RT/10 provides this. It is too bad that to get to an equal level with the RT/10 it is going to cost me extra, and possibly impact my cars resale value (depending on modifications required).

 

[MULE]

Here's a possible option. I just started tracking my car this spring. The viper days event at Mid-0hio would not let me run the RT10 without a hard top. I'm not a fan of the hard top, so I looked elsewhere. I found NASA racing and was able to run my car without a top. I know a little risky. They also let S2000 run without modifying their roll hoops. The Hondas roll hoops are very similar to the SRT. This is a controlled track event with marked passing zones, and passing only to drivers left after a signal was given. The viper days events sound much more aggressive, and I plan to work my way up to that level. I was able to enjoy my car and hit speeds of 130-150. I also never found myself pinned behind a Honda or other car. The in car instructors were very aware of faster cars behind them. Even though the Z06 waited a couple of straight-aways before letting me by
Maybe this is too tame for you, but it is an option. They run Mid-Ohio, ******-run PA, and Gingerman. I will be attending the Gingerman event July 19th (I think that's the date).

 

[Janni]

That scares me - the picture that Chris has shown on this thread was at a point at the Hallett track was definitely not at a point that was 130-150 MPH. The speeds on the straights are usually not the issue, it's going into turns and potentially dropping a tire off and over correcting, etc. that can cause a rollover.