Strange phone call last night

[rsviper94]

Last night I get a call about my 94 Viper that I have for sale. The guy tells me that they have someone interested in the car that wants to export it to Mexico. Then he says he is not sure if the buyer will want it because it has a manual trans and not an auto, I then tell him that they did not come with an auto trans. So he asks me if they pay me the full asking price would I make a bill of sale that states that they paid alot less so that they could get a break on the 8% import tax. Of course I said I probably would just to see how far this thing will really go,he then said he has to check with the buyer and will call me back. When and if he calls back I will tell him that the bill of sale will have the exact price that he would pay for the car and that should end this hole thing. Has this happened to anyone else who was trying to sell a Viper?

 

[DodgeViper01]

Strange indeed.

 

[Yves]

It is normal that they will want to reduce import taxes. I did the same when I moved my car to Europe. Somebody wrote me a statement the car was worth 20K and that's what I paid taxes on...

You could write 2 invoices : the real one based on which the transaction takes place (handing over the money).
Once you've got the money in your hands you can write him anything on a piece of paper. He could take this to Mexican customs (no effect in the US -> nothing for you to be concerned about)and benefit from lower taxes.

Customs will want something on official Dodge paper though....

 

[carguy07]

Have them pay you in cash and give them the car. If you are playing games with the price, then cash is the only way to do it. Give them a bill of sale that says it's a gift, who cares if they give you greenbacks? They won't though.

 

[Gerald Levin]

Personally, I would not commit any kind of fraud as I enjoy my freedom too much. I'd give him a bill of sale for the exact amount and if the BUYER wants to switch the real bill of sale for a fake one that was made up by the BUYER, so be it. Let the BUYER commit the fraud as this could end up biting you on the ****.

 

[rsviper94]

Personally, I would not commit any kind of fraud as I enjoy my freedom too much. I'd give him a bill of sale for the exact amount and if the BUYER wants to switch the real bill of sale for a fake one that was made up by the BUYER, so be it. Let the BUYER commit the fraud as this could end up biting you on the ****.

I agree there is no way that I am going to lie about the selling price. I am sure it is some kind of scam so I probably will not have to worry about it.

 

[Vic]

If you don't follow standard procedures when making a bill of sale, you may find yourself without legal recourse if the buyer stiffs you for any part of the payment. It happened to me once, and not having the right paperwork, I couldn't do anything about it. Long story... I just remember clearly making a note to myself not to do anything funny with a bill of sale.

 

[joe117]

If the seller is paid in cash. How would any authority be able to show that the bill of sale price was not the selling price?

I remember something about cash sales $10k and over must be reported or something like that, but that doesn't apply to private sales does it?

Again,
If the seller takes cash and doesn't deposit it right away,
where is the paper trail?

But the whole thing sounds more like the money tricks will morph into a scam rather than remain a tax shelter.

 

[VIPERMAN]

Guys,

I hate to contradict but this is no big deal. You could help the buyer by writing something less than the actual amount you get.
The buyer will pay import taxes on the car and the customs (in the foreign country) will base that import tax on the invoice they are shown.
So in other words you can write your full receipt, take your money in full and then when all is done you give him a paper for less that has no legal value in the US.
However, I need to mention that this invoice could come from someone else so he could find someone other than you to do that.
A friend of mine imported a 996TT to north africa, he was facing a 200% import tax rate!! so he presented an invoice with 30K value and paid 60K in taxes instead of 300K.

Just my $0.02

 

[ACR steve]

This is a scam , the next thing he will tell you that he was paid to much by the buyer and he wants you to take a cert. check for more then the car .then he will ask you to pay him the difference ........... big scam any time its sell to a person out of the country by a third party 99% of the time its some scam..

 

[chickenwarrior]

I tend to agree with VIPERMAN, don't loose a sale from someone asking such a request. It is not unusual at all. I came close to blowing a sale from an "overseas buyer" because of the chance of fraud. Turned out to be one of my nicest experiences ever dealing with someone and it all worked out great. The first indicator that this might be LEGIT is that you actually got a PHONE CALL, not an EMAIL. Most scammers avoid the phone unless absolutely necessary to finish the scam once they have you on the hook and don't want to loose you.

I am sure some of our "overseas" members can testify the import taxes are "KILLER" over there...

Be cautious and as stated don't take any cashier's check for the full amount or more PERIOD. See where it takes you. As long as you have the car, keys, and title until you are 100% statisfied with payment where's the harm???

My $0.02

 

[AviP]

Happens all the time in the developing world. The import tax in India is 100%. And that is down from the 250% it used to be. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. So I wouldn't recommend it out here. My $0.02.

 

[andrew8896]

I would stay away from it..

 

[Bobpantax]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Please read United States Code Title 18 Section 1956 very carefully. One of the specified unlawful activities constituting a predicate offense for money laundering mentioned in this statute is fraud on a foreign central bank. In many countries, the central bank oversees customs taraffs and duties. Also, providing a false invoice through the mail or by fax could constitute mail and/or wire fraud under other sections of United States Code Title 18 - either of which is also a predicate offense for money laundering. ( If the statutes were used against you, the government could seize the funds to buy the car and the car. You should also be aware that there are treaties with Mexico and most of the European counties concerning exchange of information; and, in some instances, MLATS (Mutual Legal Assistance Treaties)with respect to certain crimes including customs fraud. Lastly,assuming for argument sake you were not committing a crime in the US, you would be participating in a criminal conspiracy to evade Mexican customs obligations and doing so, since same was disclosed in this thread, would be fairly simple to prosecute. Extradition for customs fraud is possible and prosecuting a Viper owner would make a nice headline. False invoicing is NEVER, EVER a good idea or practice. It is a fool's game and always a crime - whether it be here or somewhere else. After 911, the world shrank rapidly. Cooperation among nations has dramatically increased for investigating and prosecuting many types of white collar crimes. Consider this post a wakeup call.

 

[Gerald Levin]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Wooo! That post sure woke me up. Anyone that uses "predicate offense" in a sentence certainly has my attention. Great post!

 

[AviP]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

False invoicing is NEVER, EVER a good idea or practice. It is a fool's game and always a crime - whether it be here or somewhere else.

As I stated before, it's common practice in most of the developing world where the common man encounters and is part of corruption and bribery daily. It's not a fool's game in those places, just a way of life.

As an example, I tried to get a driver's license in India when I was 18 and even though I passed the tests properly, the cop wanted his palm greased before granting me one. Being young and idealistic, I was very upset and threw my learner's permit in his face, verbally abused him and left rather hurriedly on my motorcycle. A chase ensued but that's another story. I spent the next 6 years without a driver's license. It was only when I got to the US that I got my first driver's license at 24. And I was proud of it just as a 16 year old would.

It's a similar story with anything related to the government: birth certificates, passports, death certificates, etc. You just need to know whom to contact and have the money. The greater the seriousness of the corruption, the greater the bribe.

After 911, the world shrank rapidly. Cooperation among nations has dramatically increased for investigating and prosecuting many types of white collar crimes.

9/11 didn't change anything in the developing world. Just because a foreign government agency agrees to comply on paper doesn't mean a thing. The poor clerk who makes $50 a month still has to make a living somehow.

That said, I would strongly advise against false invoicing in the US, especially if you live in the US.

 

[mntngts99]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Just be honest and you never have to worry or try to remember which lie you told to whom and when.
It kills me what the kind of advice a 50 to 70k car owner will give to save a buck.
Is this what you want to teach your kids?

 

[mntngts99]

Personally, I would not commit any kind of fraud as I enjoy my freedom too much. I'd give him a bill of sale for the exact amount and if the BUYER wants to switch the real bill of sale for a fake one that was made up by the BUYER, so be it. Let the BUYER commit the fraud as this could end up biting you on the ****.

Gerald said it best!
What he said ditto etc!

 

[Bobpantax]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Avi. I think that you need to read my post again. Mexico maintains a very close relationship with the US on many white collar matters. Simultaneous investigations by both counties have occurred in the past and will occur in the future. In recent years,our government has taken a very expansive view of its interpretation of the provisions I referred to in my last post. Law enforcement is not going to view a Viper owner as a "common man". Just because many people commit an unlawful act does not make the act lawful. With respect to your Indian driver's license experience, acting out anger never accomplishes anything and always makes matters worse. In your case evidently six years of worse.

 

[kenvw]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Keep everything legal - charge him a low amount for the invoice of the car - and submit him for a $20,000 wash and wax invoice or handling fee. Make sure the handling fee/wash/ and wax invoice is paid first.

 

[Dv8tor]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Keep everything legal - charge him a low amount for the invoice of the car - and submit him for a $20,000 wash and wax invoice or handling fee. Make sure the handling fee/wash/ and wax invoice is paid first.

That works. The fact that it involves a third party means it's a scam for sure though. But just for discussion... if you got the interested buyer on the phone and it was totally legit, you can work something out. I wouldn't make a fake invoice though. No way. at the most, hand him the real invoice and a blank invoice and let him fill it in if he wants like someone else stated.

 

[txlen]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

here's what i've done before...he pays you in cash and he declares whatever he wants when he takes it to mexico...done it on many ocassions....never had a prob yet...

 

[AJ]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

common practice. in some contries there are no "bluebooks" and the taxable value is determined by the documented sale price.

if he pays you what you agree upon under the table- i dont see a problem.

alex
few cars

 

[Eric H]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

If the deal is legit and it sells the car, i wouldnt see a problem with it.

Does everyone here know its illegal to install software you dont own? Yet I can guarantee you that 99.9% of the people on this board have some form of "bootlegged" software on their computers. or how many people on this board have been on an open road in their Viper and exceeded 100mph? ;-) The US has many uninforcable laws, this is just one of them. IMHO


The US or mexican govt is not going to form a task force to hunt down someone who wrote a false invoince, they have bigger fish to fry, but i would NOT under any circumstances take anything but cash for the transaction.

Even the most official looking cashiers check from out of country can be a fake. some are so good even banks cant tell the difference until its too late and you get stuck with a bill.

 

[Bobpantax]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Does everyone here know its illegal to install software you dont own? Yet I can guarantee you that 99.9% of the people on this board have some form of "bootlegged" software on their computers. or how many people on this board have been on an open road in their Viper and exceeded 100mph? ;-) The US has many uninforcable laws, this is just one of them. IMHO

A speeding ticket is not a federal felony. A copyright infringement is a federal violation and, every once in a while, the government chooses a group to make an example out of. Look at what happened in the music and movie industries. Every year I have people sitting in front of me who are under investigation for white collar violations. They frequently say the same thing as the above statement. Unfortunately, the fact that not everyone is caught does not constitute a defense. It boggles my mind that people are willing to admit that they would participate in an illegal act constituting a federal felony in and on a public chat site. I have defended individuals and entities for almost 28 years. Some people just never learn until reality catches up with them. When it does, it can be pathetic watching a grown man cry when he realizes that his life, as he knows it, may be over.

 

[AviP]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Avi. I think that you need to read my post again. Mexico maintains a very close relationship with the US on many white collar matters. Simultaneous investigations by both counties have occurred in the past and will occur in the future. In recent years,our government has taken a very expansive view of its interpretation of the provisions I referred to in my last post. Law enforcement is not going to view a Viper owner as a "common man". Just because many people commit an unlawful act does not make the act lawful. With respect to your Indian driver's license experience, acting out anger never accomplishes anything and always makes matters worse. In your case evidently six years of worse.

Bob,
I think you didn't understand what I said. I AM advising the poster against false invoicing. I'm just stating that the world has not changed as much. Yeah, more countries have signed up and more systems are online. But corruption and bribery still rule most of the developing world.

And as for my Indian driver's license, I DID NOT want to pay the bribe.

 

[Bobpantax]

Re: It is a crime in the US to provide the false invoice.

Thank you for the clarification. You are right. There definitely is corruption in many parts and levels of the developing world. However, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, a U.S. law, exists and is enforced. For instance, if a U.S. person bribed a Venezuelan official to get a better price on state owned oil, such a bribe would be subject to prosecution in the US. Note also that some of the developing nations have laws that punish certain types of white collar fraud by death. For instance, China, which is admittedly more than just a developing nation, has executed people for what we would consider white collar crime. They might selectively enforce the law, but only a fool would take the risk.