TA Trackday

[zim32]

Was out at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway in Desert Center, Ca yesterday for a members day and put the TA on the track for its maiden voyage. Also had my Comp Coupe there and got a chance to run them back to back.

The TA is my 1st street legal Viper and I was amazed how well it does right out of the box. I had an extra set of wheels and put Michelin Sport Cup tires on. Ambient temps were in the 80's and they worked very well. Car worked as well in the 6th and last session of the day as it did in the morning. In fact...fastest laps were recorded in the last session.

As for any negatives....although the brake and gas pedal seem perfectly positioned for good heel/toe when driving on the street..under hard braking...not threshold braking mind you...brake pedal travel seems a bit to far making a good heel/toe a bit cumbersome. Going to put some stainless steel brake lines on and see if that helps and then go from there. Car seemed to push a bit in corners but that might be overcome with some tire pressure adjustments...was running the Michelins at 32 front and 36 rear..hot. Lastly front end seemed to move around a bit more than expected under threshold braking..just felt like there wasn't enough rubber to handle the huge power and weight transfer...but, again, was the first day out...didn't bother to make any adjustments.

Overall I'm amazed with the capabilities of this car. Having owned numerous exotics that I have tracked over the years...I am blown away with this package for 120k...freakin' steal!! To top it off....I enjoyed the 2 hour ride home just as much.

 

[Bruce H.]

Great feedback...thanks for posting! Being able to enjoy driving to and from the track, and having that sort of performance on track, is why I ordered one. Did you end up installing a harness? Please keep us updated in the future!

Bruce

 

[zim32]

Yes Bruce..had a roll bar and harness installed. Semi custom job done by Ross Murray of Exoticraft in Marina Del Rey, Ca...expert fabricator, mechanic and driver. Lucky to have found him...

 

[VENOM V]

Glad you got it out there zim, and perfect weather for those tires. In my Gen V GTS, I ran about 33 to 34 hot front, 34 to 35 hot rear on my Sport Cups. Not sure if that's the right pressure, as I struggled to get the Sport Cups to stick in cold weather at Buttonwillow.

I would mimic your experience about the car moving around a bit upon threshold braking, but it seems to stick well if you drive through it.

I drove at Buttonwillow when Russ piloted a Comp Coupe to a 1:46, even with a restrictor plate in place! Russ is quite a driver and very knowledgeable. I also saw his fab work, he did a custom roll bar in Lee W's Gen III. Beautifully integreated under the headliner, I was impressed. If you have any pics of your roll bar and harness set up, please post it.

Todd

 

[zim32]

Glad you got it out there zim, and perfect weather for those tires. In my Gen V GTS, I ran about 33 to 34 hot front, 34 to 35 hot rear on my Sport Cups. Not sure if that's the right pressure, as I struggled to get the Sport Cups to stick in cold weather at Buttonwillow.

I would mimic your experience about the car moving around a bit upon threshold braking, but it seems to stick well if you drive through it.

I drove at Buttonwillow when Russ piloted a Comp Coupe to a 1:46, even with a restrictor plate in place! Russ is quite a driver and very knowledgeable. I also saw his fab work, he did a custom roll bar in Lee W's Gen III. Beautifully integreated under the headliner, I was impressed. If you have any pics of your roll bar and harness set up, please post it.

Todd

Hey Todd..both Ross and I were saying a bit more pressure up front might be the cure for the slight understeer..so I think your pressures sound right on. And yes...the front moving around was not a problem driving thru.

Ross is quite a driver...we had a blast out there...he did a few sessions in the TA while I drove the Comp Coupe...had the track to ourselves for awhile...nirvana!! I will try to figure out how to post some pics soon.

Mark

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

zim32, Can you please comment on the T/A suspension and street vs. track shock settings. thanks, allan

 

[zim32]

I found that on the track in "race" mode the suspension was sufficient and didn't come away from the first day with any thoughts of any glaring difficiencies . I didn't try the street mode on the track for obvious reasons.
In "street" mode I found the ride on public roads to be very acceptable. I have yet to toggle back and forth while driving on public roads to judge the comparative differences. As I previously mentioned...this is my first street legal Viper so I can't compare to non TA Gen V's...or previous year models.

Mark

 

[kdaviper]

pretty sure street mode stiffens if the car senses quick steering imputs either way.

 

[shine]

Thanks for the writeup. I've done my previous '10 ACR on HPDE lap days but looking forward to acquiring a TA and seeing how they compare.

 

[bushido]

Sport Cup tires like low pressures. I run them at 25psi cold fronts and 27psi cold rears. Running Laguna Seca at 72-75 degree temps. The fronts get 31psi hot and 33 psi rears..

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

zim 32, Thanks for the info. I had my TA on track for the first time on Thursday. I found the "track" setting MUCH to stiff and used the Street setting which was OK. On the street my track setting is unusable. MCS Shocks went on today, will be at the track again tomorrow. Thanks again, Allan

 

[Bruce H.]

zim 32, Thanks for the info. I had my TA on track for the first time on Thursday. I found the "track" setting MUCH to stiff and used the Street setting which was OK. On the street my track setting is unusable. MCS Shocks went on today, will be at the track again tomorrow. Thanks again, Allan

Please be sure to post your impressions of the MCS vs stock.

 

[zim32]

zim 32, Thanks for the info. I had my TA on track for the first time on Thursday. I found the "track" setting MUCH to stiff and used the Street setting which was OK. On the street my track setting is unusable. MCS Shocks went on today, will be at the track again tomorrow. Thanks again, Allan

Curious to hear if you find benefits from the change...

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

I had the shocks on my 2013 SRT Track Pac. Essentially, the same car. Mark set them up originally for me and it took some time to find the right compression and rebound settings, but they are MILES ahead of whats on the TA. I really only have the car for track use, but they are fine on the street with the damping set very soft. Allan

 

[Bobpantax]

Please clarify. Can you still adjust the shock settings on the fly after puting on the MCS shocks by pushing the buttons?

I like the stock suspension choices. The street setting is great for me. But I am coming from a corner balanced Moton/Eibach, ACR front sway bar suspension so I was very accustomed to a stiffer ride. The Street setting is notably softer than what I had in the other car.

The track setting is great on a smooth surface. You would not want to use it on the street.

I will test the track setting out more later this month at Homestead.

 

[Jack B]

The MCS shocks are double adjustables. The compression canisters can be mounted under the hood and under the back glass. The front rebound settings can be reached by opening the hood. The rear rebound requires that you jack up the car a few inches.

Please clarify. Can you still adjust the shock settings on the fly after puting on the MCS shocks by pushing the buttons?

I like the stock suspension choices. The street setting is great for me. But I am coming from a corner balanced Moton/Eibach, ACR front sway bar suspension so I was very accustomed to a stiffer ride. The Street setting is notably softer than what I had in the other car.

The track setting is great on a smooth surface. You would not want to use it on the street.

I will test the track setting out more later this month at Homestead.

 

[Bobpantax]

Thanks Jack but will the street and track buttons still work or will you have to manually adjust the shocks for different purposes? In other words, do the MCS shocks interface with the existing TA on the fly adjustable system?

If they do not, it would make more sense to get a base SRT model with the aero and lighter wheels and just mod the suspension if a person prefers the MCS shocks. In addition to the MCS shocks, I would guess that you could order the TA rotors and sway bars and swap them out. After that, you would need to tune the new setup as desired.

I do not know which would cost less - buying a TA and changing its suspension or the above.

 

[Jack B]

Your second paragraph has some merit. You cannot use the cabin button to adjust the MCS shocks. You also have to remember, stiffer is not always better. One of Allen's posts above backs that up.

Thanks Jack but will the street and track buttons still work or will you have to manually adjust the shocks for different purposes? In other words, do the MCS shocks interface with the existing TA on the fly adjustable system?

If they do not, it would make more sense to get a base SRT model with the aero and lighter wheels and just mod the suspension if a person prefers the MCS shocks. In addition to the MCS shocks, I would guess that you could order the TA rotors and sway bars and swap them out. After that, you would need to tune the new setup as desired.

I do not know which would cost less - buying a TA and changing its suspension or the above.

 

[Bobpantax]

Stiffer may not always be better but most of the time, in many contexts, it usually is. LQ.

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Had the new TA on the track again Saturday, MCS shocks, lowered about 1" front and rear, R6s, harnesses. As said above the MSC set up is superior on the track and good on the road. My settings for this day were 7C 9R front And 9C 11R rear. Springs I think are 500F And 800R. I think the car needs more front spring, maybe 700#? For the street, I run all the damper settings down to 2 or 3. With this set up the car is VERY stable at all speeds and the only thing I need to do in the near future is find some brake improvements. I don't have a lot of confidence in the front brakes from high speeds. Allan

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi Allan. How much did you drive it on a road course before the change out? What was the difference in times around the same course under approximately the same weather conditions with the same tires among the stock TA set up on Street setting, the stock TA set up on Race setting and the MSC set up with the car lowered? Thanks in advance for posting this data.

Also, if the MSC set up was faster, how much of the time improvemnet do you attribute to the shocks? Lowering the car which of course reduces the air flowing under the car? Or the tires if you ran the stock TA OEM tires before the changes?

 

[05Commemorative]

Also, are you still running the oem brake pads? I would think that would be an early change if being serious on the track if concerned on the braking front.

Also, Bob's questions are good. I would have guessed you would have done slightly stiffer springs as the TA has stiffer springs vs GTS/SRT models.

Lastly, did you get corner balanced and re-aligned to account for the lowering and adjustable MCS system?

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

A lot to answer, I'll try. I drove the car on track the second day I had it, but kept RPMs below 4500 to aid breakin. On Saturday I drove it the same except (with the changes) limited RPMs to 5000RPM. The real difference used in my comparison is between my previous SRT, with the mods I have now, to the stock TA. My estimation is that the shock and tire changes are worth about 4 seconds a lap on my home track which is 1.86 miles and very "tight" (16 turns, lots of elevation changes)and not well suited to the Viper. The car has been corner balanced , but alignment was stock from factory. I am having the alinement checked and possibly readjusted now. Brake pads are now stock. I don't know the stock TA spring rates although the the 500# i have on the front seem a little light.
Hope this helps and please give me some feed back on your track experiences. Allan

 

[ACRBruce]

... As for any negatives....although the brake and gas pedal seem perfectly positioned for good heel/toe when driving on the street..under hard braking...not threshold braking mind you...brake pedal travel seems a bit to far making a good heel/toe a bit cumbersome. Going to put some stainless steel brake lines on and see if that helps and then go from there...

My impression of the pedal positions are just the opposite. I feel the brake pedal is too high and make heel-and-toe difficult in street driving, and once the brake heats up (if they do as I have not been to a real track event yet) and softens up a little, the pedal will sink a little more and would make heel-and-toe easier on track. With the brakes cool, no matter how hard I press on the brake pedal, it wouldn't just about line up even with the gas pedal. Does your go lower?

 

[zim32]

My impression of the pedal positions are just the opposite. I feel the brake pedal is too high and make heel-and-toe difficult in street driving, and once the brake heats up (if they do as I have not been to a real track event yet) and softens up a little, the pedal will sink a little more and would make heel-and-toe easier on track. With the brakes cool, no matter how hard I press on the brake pedal, it wouldn't just about line up even with the gas pedal. Does your go lower?

When I mentioned that they seemed perfectly positioned on the street I was referring to the distance between brake and gas pedal as to side by side...when I was driving on the street. At the track I felt that the brake was depressed a bit too far below the gas pedal causing me to adjust my foot too much to be real smooth. Same was confirmed by another driver in my car.

 

[Viper X]

Had the new TA on the track again Saturday, MCS shocks, lowered about 1" front and rear, R6s, harnesses. As said above the MSC set up is superior on the track and good on the road. My settings for this day were 7C 9R front And 9C 11R rear. Springs I think are 500F And 800R. I think the car needs more front spring, maybe 700#? For the street, I run all the damper settings down to 2 or 3. With this set up the car is VERY stable at all speeds and the only thing I need to do in the near future is find some brake improvements. I don't have a lot of confidence in the front brakes from high speeds. Allan

No track experience in a Gen 5, yet ...., but lots in other Vipers, and the later Gen's aren't that different.

500 in/lb front / 800 rear springs (both likely 8 inches long) work pretty well on the street, but are a bit light on the track with OE pads, worse with more aggressive pads.

I'd suggest you go up to at least 600 front and 900 or so rear to start and switch to 7 inch springs with the MCS suspension. Your initial shock settings sound about right, a bit stiffer in the rear seens to work better.

I run much stiffer springs in my ACR with 3-way Motons, but it's a different animal. I've found that all Vipers "dive" a bit more than I like under heavy braking with the light 500 lb springs up front, especially if the front alignment isn't aggressive enough.

.....and Ross is a great guy and friend. Wish I could have been there.

Dan

 

[Allan White Mamba 200/200]

Dan, Good info. I'm planning to be at Road Atlanta Friday-Sunday and should be able to get more data (if it does't rain). My "gut feel" now, is to change springs to 700f, 900r. We'll see. Thanks, Allan

 

[Viper X]

Dan, Good info. I'm planning to be at Road Atlanta Friday-Sunday and should be able to get more data (if it does't rain). My "gut feel" now, is to change springs to 700f, 900r. We'll see. Thanks, Allan

A tip I was given early on with setting up Vipers is to keep at least 300 in / lbs difference between front and rear spring rates, so this may help you, i.e. if you decide to go 700 front (I'd first try 600 (non-aero) then you may want to go with 1000 rear.

This may surprise a few of you guys but I've got about 30 or 40 sets of Eibachs that I've purchased and tested during the last 10 years or so on Vipers searching for the best feel and fastest laps. On my "street cars", I run 500 front / 800 rear, 8 inch length with Moton Club sports, which are pretty close performance wise to the current Motion Control Shocks, which seem to be quite good.

On my Gen 4 ACR, which came OE with (about) 518 front / 1058 rear springs, I tried many spring rates and ended up at 900 front / 1300 rear 6 inch Eibach springs combined with Moton 3-way race shocks and Hoosier R-6 or A-6's, 315 x 30 x 18 front, 345 x 35 x 18 rear depending on the weather.

I wanted to be able to lower the car as much as I could without getting too low and keep in mind that the Aero on the ACR is pretty substantial, i.e. when I've seen photos of my car at speed in the straights, it is quite a bit lower than static. These spring rates work best for me on most tracks and with the Motons, I can stiffen or soften this up a bit as needed for the specific track. I can also set them soft enough for Auto X and was the fastest car in my class when Auto Crossing against a group of other Vipers and Corvettes at a large competition in So Cal last year.

I have tried as high as 1000 front / 1500 rear which was a bit too stiff for me.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[Bruce H.]

Some very interesting feedback, gents. All this seems to be confirming my suspicion that the valving in the Bilstein damper system may be the limiting factor to the factory's efforts to improve the car's track handling while maintaining an acceptable ride quality. It sounds like the MCS and Moton dampers may permit a much firmer spring while maintaining, or perhaps improving, ride comfort. I don't like the prospect of replacing the TA's stock suspension before I've even received the car, but being able to adjust the ride height is a little tempting as well.

While on the subject, Edmonds did a 2014 SRT Viper vs Stingray comparison, and the Vette did very well. Would anyone care to speculate why? Edmond's says its in the electronic diff and traction management, which sounds at least part of it since the Stingray used a track mode vs SRT with ESC ON or OFF not noted (but 5 mode with Track Mode on GTS and TA models only). Do you feel the stock SRT dampers and springs could also bear some responsibility for a stock C7 with Z51 suspension on much narrower rubber pulling higher skidpad g's (1.05 vs 1.01g), and higher slalom speeds (73.5 vs 72.0 mph)? Or would you suspect SRT's Pirelli Nero aren't as good as MPSS Run Flats, suspension design differences, or a difference in steering accuracy.

Test video and a decent article...http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/corvette-stingray/2014/comparison-test.html

Bruce

 

[Viper X]

Bruce,

My suggestion, drive your new T/A first and get a feeling for the car. If you change anything for the track, start with tires and brake pads. Spend some time learning it. It may be much more car than you expect and meet your needs completely. If not, you can always make a few changes.

On the Vette comparison, the Viper has always scared most Vette, Porsche and other drivers, including magazine "drivers" and still does today. I smile when I read things about the Viper like:

1 - "Massive speed", which is one of the reasons we buy it, and these guys were testing on the Streets of Willow springs, which is a very tight, twisty little track better suited to a modded Subaru than a Viper. The Viper would have crushed the Vette on the "Big Track" at Willow Springs and also would have scared the pants off of these mag drivers in turns 1, 2, 8 and 9, which is why they don't test there.

"Many laps to learn the car", yes it will, but you will go faster with practice over time. With the Vette, you'll be pretty good right out of the box but never catch an experienced driver in a properly set up Viper.

"I don't completely trust the Viper", again, this takes time. We seem to live in a "microwave" thought environment now days where everyone wants to become great overnight. Doesn't happen in the real world. Good things take time, effort and work.

"The massive speed means braking in places where I wouldn't in other cars," relayed Senior Editor Josh Jacquot about the Viper's laps at Willow Springs. "It requires many laps to come to terms with its communication, expectations and absolute limits. In the end, feeling completely comfortable comes down to complete trust. And I don't completely trust the Viper the way I do the 'Vette."


On the skid pad stuff, far too many variables to help with this. What condition were the tires in on both cars, how old were they? Were they both "press cars" that have been "ridden hard and put away wet" (with many burn outs on them), were tire air pressures optimal, how was the alignment, etc. All of this can and will affect skid pad performance and Slalom speeds. Doubt that these writers checked any of this stuff, and the Viper can still scare some Porsche and Vette guys (like the wirters) in the Slalom.....but I love that about the car.

The OE suspension on the GEN 5 SRT car felt pretty good to me and it wasn't a T/A, which will be better. Greg broke the tires loose in the 1 - 2 shift and 2 -3 while racing the Jet and is a good enough driver to just drive though it. Many don't have the courage to do this.

I've always liked the feed back and accuracy offered by the Viper steering in Gen 2, 3 & 4....and the 5 felt very good to me, maybe a bit quicker than Gen 4. Very good feedback, very positive and repeatable. I test drove a few Porsches on a few tracks and found the steering in the Cayman S to be very comparable to Viper, which is very good indeed.

Never been a fan of "over powered" power steering, you just loose too much "feel".

Good luck,

Dan