Thanks John B! 3.73's installed today in my Gen III.

[FLATOUT]

Man talk about waking up a car! Seriously the car GOES! I drove over a 100 miles each way the shop said they would be broken in just fine if I stopped and let them cool at least once on the way home, John B said they would be fine as well. So I got on it a couple of times close to home to at least get a feel will rolling into it in 1st through 3rd gears. Install shop did an amazing job and the gears are whisper quiet. I have had ring and pinion gears changed out many times over the years and this is definitely the quietest install yet (hence driving the long distance to get it done right the first time).

On concrete with the Nitto Invo's it was hooking pretty good, right on the edge of spinning. Asphalt I was actually having to drive the car in first and slightly peddle the 1-2 shift. Cruising at 80 mph on the long toll road on the way home the car was seeing about 1,800 rpm's in sixth.

Now I know it's just gears and not TT's or a Blower but for a simple addition I am happy with the performance gain.

I purchased the gear set and install kit from John B last Friday and they were at my door by 10 am Wednesday morning, west coast to Texas. Thanks John for such great service I really appreciate it!

Andy Wheeler

 

[dave6666]

Finished the break-in on mine recently too. Not very happy with the posi, but love the gear ratio. It is like a SOTP TT upgrade in a funny way cheaper kind of way.

 

[AbsolutHank]

Andy I'm calling you tomorrow!!! I'm glad you're happy...I think I woulda wussed out and got the 3.55s. I'm glad you're still able to hook up and go too!

 

[Smokin' 2]

Glad it went well for you Andy!

 

[1TONY1]

Finished the break-in on mine recently too. Not very happy with the posi, but love the gear ratio. It is like a SOTP TT upgrade in a funny way cheaper kind of way.

You REALLY need to go for a ride in a fast car

 

[dave6666]

You REALLY need to go for a ride in a fast car

Haha probably so, but coming home from the office trying to stay civilized and not kill a kid on a bike or get a reckless endangerment charge doesn't take near what even I have.

I do come home from the office more days a week than I come home from an event.

 

[Twister]

hit the track on those SAME 20 inch rims again and see if you beat the 11.9 at 120 you posted pre gears. Interesting to see if their really is a 1/4 mile gain

 

[tucker]

hit the track on those SAME 20 inch rims again and see if you beat the 11.9 at 120 you posted pre gears. Interesting to see if their really is a 1/4 mile gain

If anything, it should be slower. It shouldn't hook as well especially on 20's, and most likely will require one more shift. I had 373's in my built head and cam car, and while it was fun to pedal the car blowing the tires lose all over the place, I just don't see them gaining anything at the track. SOTP, sure. Track, not so much.

 

[redtanrt10]

Andy, Glad it worked out for you. I had 3:55's in a couple of vipers but never 3:73's, you can really feel the difference! Around town, you'll see that you reallly don't need to use 1st gear. Mike

 

[FLATOUT]

hit the track on those SAME 20 inch rims again and see if you beat the 11.9 at 120 you posted pre gears. Interesting to see if their really is a 1/4 mile gain

If anything, it should be slower. It shouldn't hook as well especially on 20's, and most likely will require one more shift. I had 373's in my built head and cam car, and while it was fun to pedal the car blowing the tires lose all over the place, I just don't see them gaining anything at the track. SOTP, sure. Track, not so much.

The only way the car would run slower is if you don't hook, and can't shift. Twister if the car didn't hook on the street tires I would throw a set of E.T. streets on my stockers and get it to hook. Putting a drag radial on the rear would accomplish the same thing.

I ran a buddy last night that I have run several previous times and all the way to the middle of 4th the car was pulling his car much better than it used to so the car is clearly faster than it was before.

Tucker were talking about putting the right tire on the car and actually driving the car to a better E.T. I do agree though if you blow the tires off the car it will run slower. Get the car to hook and it will go faster. I also had to make the shift into Forth with my current mods anyways so it will require the same amount of shifts. I have an MGW shifter in the car and it's something I actually practice and work on, I don't have a problem rowing the gears.

 

[FLATOUT]

Thanks guys I appreciate the comments it's a good mod. Also my car hooks on the street right now on the big sticky nitto invo's. If it didn't I would just put a stickier tire on it.

Andy

 

[tucker]

That is good Andy. As you have probably already found out, it is pretty hard to stick a street tire with a 373. Most are fooled by the SOTP, and then are highly disappointed when they see they either hurt or equaled their old ET. They are fun around town though.

 

[bushido]

If anything, it should be slower. It shouldn't hook as well especially on 20's, and most likely will require one more shift. I had 373's in my built head and cam car, and while it was fun to pedal the car blowing the tires lose all over the place, I just don't see them gaining anything at the track. SOTP, sure. Track, not so much.

I have to agree with Smokes. That's why I swapped out my 3:55s for 3:33s, and the end result was much better on my head/cam GTS..

 

[tucker]

I have to agree with Smokes. That's why I swapped out my 3:55s for 3:33s, and the end result was much better on my head/cam GTS..

At the 600 RWHP level, the 3:73 and 3:55 aren't the best things to have. They are fun to make a stock car feel faster though.

 

[Twister]

Well Mr.Wheeler feels set on proveing that a gen3 with agressive gears is faster at the strip than a stock geared one.

I wanted to go this route but my studying revealed much of what you guys have said..the 3.73 or 3.55 agressive gearing plus the instant low end tourque of the gen 3 vipers plus needing that 5th gear shift or at minimum fourth results in every thread I found on this subject saying that the gears indeed picked them up zero ET and MPH in the 1/4 mile. But great SOTP and also GREAT for illegal roll raceing as you can easily start the roll race closer to the optimum gear start point...

Eample..most people love a roll race start point os 45-55 mph..Well being that the gen3 does 59 mph in first gear this makes for a very akward situation were you would literally be in first gear for less than a secon and have to switch gears. Most opt to start the roll race at 45-55 mph in second gear with their gen3 Vipers...Resulting in a vey low rev start in second gear and giving up precious tenths while the rpm's rise..

A 3.55 gear or 3.73 gear makes second gear ready to go at 45-50 mph (verses the stock 3.07 wanting to be in first till 59 mph) and that start point of 45-55 mph now in second gear puts the rpm's exactly were they want to be and will indeed be faster for the spirited blast from 50-120 mph..


I truly hope FlatOut shows us that with the right traction and good driveing that it can indeed be faster. Running a 11.9 at 120 mph on 20 inch rims shows that he has a good set of driving skills..

Good luck

 

[FLATOUT]

At the 600 RWHP level, the 3:73 and 3:55 aren't the best things to have. They are fun to make a stock car feel faster though.

Of course they are "if" you can get them to hook.

 

[Paul Hawker]

Don't get all hung up on all the "ifs".

Every track is different in its need to optimize gears. For 1/4 mile the track prep can make all the difference in which gear is faster.

The real reason most Viper owners choose bigger gears is that they are more fun...the car simply feels faster

The car is more responsive, the tires hang on the ragged edge, and you get flung out of the corners. The cars rev faster, the shifts are more violent and the revs up the tach go by faster.

Every race, whether on the track or street will require a different gear. If you are at Bonneville you will want one gear, if at the Bonneville salt flats, another.

The difference is all in the fun and the enhanced ownership experience.

Don't get all hung up on which is faster on the stopwatch.

 

[tucker]

Don't get all hung up on which is faster on the stopwatch.

Isn't that how one measures which is truly faster? I understand your statements, but expecting to pick up time in the quarter with just gears is just waiting to be disappointed. As stated, the are great for roll-ons in a stock, or close to, HP car and that is about it.

 

[FLATOUT]

Isn't that how one measures which is truly faster? I understand your statements, but expecting to pick up time in the quarter with just gears is just waiting to be disappointed. As stated, the are great for roll-ons in a stock, or close to, HP car and that is about it.

Tucker your 100% wrong. You use that ratio change to maximize the platforms excelleration over a given distance. As Paul correctly stated above it all depends on the length of the pull. If I was optimizing the viper for the 1/8th, I would run a gear over 4.10, If I plan on running the car at the Texas mile the 3.07's go in, and Bonneville who knows maybe a 2.73 type ratio. 3.73's or 3.55's are considerabley better for maximizing acceleration in the 1/4.

I am seriously blown away that the concept of such a simple and long standing automotive engineering truth is not making sense to some of you.

Obviously you have to put in the same effort to get your car to hook with added acceleration.

If you don't hook with a simple gear swap then fix your traction deficiency, the last thing you do is look at the modification and say ok that mod causes wheel spin so instead of upgrading your tire, and or driving skill you just deem the mod as something that slows the platform.

This is simple stuff, put a better tire and work on your driving to take advantage of added acceleration.

 

[FLATOUT]

O.K. pulled these quotes from the Gen IV 3.55 thread were Twister was asking the same questions, and received the same answers as he did here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Twister
The Viper spins like crazy on the stock 13 inch wide rears with stock 3.07 gearing

Malu59RT
Get better tires

Twister,

You can't compare a Gen II or III's "usable" torque curve with a Gen IV. Imagine putting a 3.23 gear in your NSX....not going to work well. The Gen IV's are much more like a European engine..kind of weak down low but like hitting a nitrous button above 5000 rpm.

Right now I'm guessing a Gen IV with 3.55's, Mopar controller and headers will be able to walk away from a Ferrari 599 or even a tuned ZR1. If it has a 5th gear mod, then I'd bet it would beat both of those cars to 200 mph.

I'm thinking with all the runs you've done on non race prepared street surfaces, your tires are glazed and hard as a rock. Time to get yourself some drag radials and show the natives who the real king of the island is

Cheers,
George

Twister:
good point. completely differant power delivery in the gen4's compared to the gen3's



You missed his point here Twister. The Gen III motor doesn't make more torque than the Gen IV, the Gen IV just makes more power as it revs. The point that was made that you need to realize is:


"Get better tires!"

 

[TrackAire]

You can't compare a street surface to a prepped drag strip pad, period. What works on one may be dismal on the other.

Most dedicated 1/4 mile racers use very low gears that max out the hp through the traps. If lowering your 1st gear multiplies your torque, then if you can "hook up" you will launch faster and harder.

There is a big difference between ET and trap speeds. ET wins drag races, period. If you can't hook up that's your fault...car isn't set up and/or your driving skills need improving. To me lower gears means more torque multiplication....more torque means more thrust assuming you have the capabilities of transfering the power to the ground and hooking up. Every tenth shaved off your 60' time is approximately two tenths off your ET.

A shorter gear may also be helpful for tight racing like autocrossing. Using a shorter gear means you have much more compression braking when letting off the gas and depending on your posi (like an OS Giken) will help both rear tires slow the car and help pivot the car around a corner. There is no perfect gear unless you only run one track, under the same conditions all the time.

Probably why real race cars often have quick change rear end ratio capabiltiy.

Cheers,
George

 

[FLATOUT]

Ding Ding! Exactly!

Gears will improve 1/4 performance when you get your car to hook. They will also improve acceleration on the street when hooked up or leaving on a roll.

You can't compare a street surface to a prepped drag strip pad, period. What works on one may be dismal on the other.

Most dedicated 1/4 mile racers use very low gears that max out the hp through the traps. If lowering your 1st gear multiplies your torque, then if you can "hook up" you will launch faster and harder.

There is a big difference between ET and trap speeds. ET wins drag races, period. If you can't hook up that's your fault...car isn't set up and/or your driving skills need improving. To me lower gears means more torque multiplication....more torque means more thrust assuming you have the capabilities of transfering the power to the ground and hooking up. Every tenth shaved off your 60' time is approximately two tenths off your ET.

A shorter gear may also be helpful for tight racing like autocrossing. Using a shorter gear means you have much more compression braking when letting off the gas and depending on your posi (like an OS Giken) will help both rear tires slow the car and help pivot the car around a corner. There is no perfect gear unless you only run one track, under the same conditions all the time.

Probably why real race cars often have quick change rear end ratio capabiltiy.

Cheers,
George

 

[tucker]

If anything, it should be slower. It shouldn't hook as well especially on 20's, and most likely will require one more shift. I had 373's in my built head and cam car, and while it was fun to pedal the car blowing the tires lose all over the place, I just don't see them gaining anything at the track. SOTP, sure. Track, not so much.

Tucker your 100% wrong. You use that ratio change to maximize the platforms excelleration over a given distance. As Paul correctly stated above it all depends on the length of the pull. If I was optimizing the viper for the 1/8th, I would run a gear over 4.10, If I plan on running the car at the Texas mile the 3.07's go in, and Bonneville who knows maybe a 2.73 type ratio. 3.73's or 3.55's are considerabley better for maximizing acceleration in the 1/4.

I am seriously blown away that the concept of such a simple and long standing automotive engineering truth is not making sense to some of you.

Obviously you have to put in the same effort to get your car to hook with added acceleration.

If you don't hook with a simple gear swap then fix your traction deficiency, the last thing you do is look at the modification and say ok that mod causes wheel spin so instead of upgrading your tire, and or driving skill you just deem the mod as something that slows the platform.

This is simple stuff, put a better tire and work on your driving to take advantage of added acceleration.

Andy, no offense, but every picture on this board is of your car on veneered 20's with some kind of matching carbon gadget glued to it. Now, all of a sudden we are speaking of drag radials and sticky tires. Post some pictures of your track tires (borrow a picture if you have to). You know the gears are a waste of coin if you are going to run the same tires you show in every reposted picture. Telling someone they are wrong when you failed to mention a different tire, well, that is a little foolish on your part.

You are commenting on Bonneville, yet are unable to spell acceleration. The sooner you can come to grips with owning a stock car, on fake carbon wheels, with carbon pretties glued to the front of it, that now has a "my tires spin on these four streets in town" (admit it, you have found the slippery streets by now) the better off you will be. I quite frankly am amazed that someone at your power level is even attempting to bluff this kind of effort. When a guy that spent a few bucks more than you did on headers and a tune punts your marbles between your legs, according to your post, you are going to run home and throw a different gear in. How stupid is that?

Again, congrats on your purchase.

 

[Burntrubber]

awesome that you put in 3.73s.

i personally only had my GTS to the track once. and loved to cruise around town and open roads. I rarely went over 140mph on the roads that were suitable for it. i always wanted to go with 3.73 or 4.10s, people told me my track times would suffer, looking back I should have done what i wanted to. buy the gear for how your going to use the car. I am waiting to buy a genIV, first thing will be gears.

best

 

[FLATOUT]

Tucker do you think that because I run a nice set of wheels around town means that I don't know how to properly setup a car for the 1/4? I have owned more than one 10 second F body, one of which I put a TH400 in with a T Brake, and a 12 bolt in it. I know how to make a car hook at the track if I need it to.

Twister is the only one on this thread that ever mentioned that I would run the car on my street tires. Thats what I was trying to get him to understand. If I wanted a car that could handle real power on a street tire I would buy an all wheel drive Lambo, or a similar Platform. Based on the results were seeing from the mile lately though GT's and others are starting to put down huge power based on tire and power delivery.

I don't understand why it's hard to believe that a car that is only making about 450 rwhp and 460 ftlbs would have a hard time getting traction with 3.73's?

I just got home from a drive and the car was hooking great out here in hot a$$ Texas on the Nitto Invo's.

You assumed in my earlier posts that I said I would run the car with the 20's on it. I never mentioned it. Your boy Tornado said that there was no performance gain for a Gen III in the 1/4 period with a gear swap. He said the car would spin, and, because you would have to shift again. Thats what you were defending, maybe you didn't read back that far but that what was being discussed. He didn't understand how swapping the ratio's worked hence the Top speed and 1/8th mile references above.

Also did you assume that I would never add a set of headers, remove the cats, add a Paxton or TT's down the road? I wasn't saying that changing the gears was the best mod out there, but that it offered some gain, which once again Twister/Tornado feels is not going to happen.

Thanks of course for taking shots at my car though I appreciate it. The pic's of your car completely slammed aren't my cup of tea but it's your car big deal.



One question for you, with a simple yes or no answer.

Will going from 3.07's to 3.55's/3.73's in a Gen III improve the cars ET in the 1/4 if it hooks?

 

[tucker]

Andy, first and foremost, you said that you were going to run with "sticky Invos." No assumption on my part was made. My initial post and what this turned out to be are really one in the same. The thought here was trying to hook the car on 20's and "sticky" Invos. That won't happen with a 373. Been there, done that. If the car hooks, and a huge if, you might see a marginal gain. All tracks and conditions are different as stated above though. The grin a 373 gives are priceless though. I am not bashing your mod, just stating that if the end all goal here is to consistently improve track times, there are better uses of your money. This is SRT #9 for me, and I have set them all up a little different. I have witnessed a ton of guys with 373's throw a car on the dyno just knowing it made more power, and their gearing actually makes dyno's read lower than stock gearing. They were then so convinced their car was so fast, they took it to the track, only to spin through third, have slower ET's, and slower trap speeds. If you can drive like you state you can, you might have a wash on trap speed and do a little better on your ET. Your trap speed is the indicator if you picked up power, and I don't think you will do much better there.

In short, if your post said that you were going to run drag radials or similar, I would have said yes your ET should improve. If you would have run drag radials with your stock gearing, it would have improved even more IMO. You can't beat that gearing for all around driving though, and that is what the majority here do with their cars, myself included.

 

[FLATOUT]

Ok were on the same page Tucker. This is what I was trying to get Twister to think about. The last time I was out I was photographing some cars in md about a year ago and on the 20's I cut a 1.81 60' lol and a bunch of 1.85's. Might be fun to see if they would hold the 3.73's. I bet I could get it to hook at this power level with some practice.

Andy, first and foremost, you said that you were going to run with "sticky Invos." No assumption on my part was made. My initial post and what this turned out to be are really one in the same. The thought here was trying to hook the car on 20's and "sticky" Invos. That won't happen with a 373. Been there, done that. If the car hooks, and a huge if, you might see a marginal gain. All tracks and conditions are different as stated above though. The grin a 373 gives are priceless though. I am not bashing your mod, just stating that if the end all goal here is to consistently improve track times, there are better uses of your money. This is SRT #9 for me, and I have set them all up a little different. I have witnessed a ton of guys with 373's throw a car on the dyno just knowing it made more power, and their gearing actually makes dyno's read lower than stock gearing. They were then so convinced their car was so fast, they took it to the track, only to spin through third, have slower ET's, and slower trap speeds. If you can drive like you state you can, you might have a wash on trap speed and do a little better on your ET. Your trap speed is the indicator if you picked up power, and I don't think you will do much better there.

In short, if your post said that you were going to run drag radials or similar, I would have said yes your ET should improve. If you would have run drag radials with your stock gearing, it would have improved even more IMO. You can't beat that gearing for all around driving though, and that is what the majority here do with their cars, myself included.

 

[tucker]

Ok were on the same page Tucker. This is what I was trying to get Twister to think about. The last time I was out I was photographing some cars in md about a year ago and on the 20's I cut a 1.81 60' lol and a bunch of 1.85's. Might be fun to see if they would hold the 3.73's. I bet I could get it to hook at this power level with some practice.

There are some magicians out there. I have seen SW hook some things others have done 360's on the line with. At your current power level, you should be able to do get the hang of it. I just always question the gearing swap on an otherwise stock car unless it is being done for none other than enjoyment on the street. I personally like Roe's over Paxtons for that reason. Most Paxton's are faster, but the Roe is more fun to drive. There are a ton here who read to learn, and that is why the 373 has always been such a debated mod. People swear they are faster, but just can't get a time slip to prove it.

 

[dave6666]

Holy sheepskin. I put them in and luv it. You guys argue about them LOL.

 

[Twister]

Andy, first and foremost, you said that you were going to run with "sticky Invos." No assumption on my part was made. My initial post and what this turned out to be are really one in the same. The thought here was trying to hook the car on 20's and "sticky" Invos. That won't happen with a 373. Been there, done that. If the car hooks, and a huge if, you might see a marginal gain. All tracks and conditions are different as stated above though. The grin a 373 gives are priceless though. I am not bashing your mod, just stating that if the end all goal here is to consistently improve track times, there are better uses of your money. This is SRT #9 for me, and I have set them all up a little different. I have witnessed a ton of guys with 373's throw a car on the dyno just knowing it made more power, and their gearing actually makes dyno's read lower than stock gearing. They were then so convinced their car was so fast, they took it to the track, only to spin through third, have slower ET's, and slower trap speeds. If you can drive like you state you can, you might have a wash on trap speed and do a little better on your ET. Your trap speed is the indicator if you picked up power, and I don't think you will do much better there.

In short, if your post said that you were going to run drag radials or similar, I would have said yes your ET should improve. If you would have run drag radials with your stock gearing, it would have improved even more IMO. You can't beat that gearing for all around driving though, and that is what the majority here do with their cars, myself included.

Thank you so much. This is exactly what I have been trying to say..I have read of people with stock gen 3 srt10's with the stock 445 rwhp and 490 torque running 11.9 at 122 mph on the stock tires with the stock 3.07 rear end..Again all stock off a 1.9 60 foot..

Then with the ONLY change being slicks the same car went 11.2 at 124 mph off a 1.6 60 foot with the still stock 3.07 rear end..

Ive only got around 100 passes in my 2003 srt10..and while none have been at an actual drag strip and only on a deserted stretch of road with my own personal timing gear..

ONE THING I am 100% shore of is this..

The low end stock 490 rwt on a gen3 srt10 will literally blow those huge 13 inch rear to smitherines during the 60 foot and on the 1-2 shift and even ocassionally on the 2-3 shift..

I have experimented with stock tire pressure rangeing from 18 psi warm to 30 psi warm..And concluded that 20-24 psi was the optimum range. this was also confirmed but other members running the stock tires..

Even at 20-24 psi the STOCK 3.07 rear coupled with the near 500 tourqe at the wheels at very low rpm (unlike gen4's that kick in a lil later in the rpm range) will still blow those tires away..

You have to BABY first gear and be gentle with second and still watch your self a lil on the 2-3 shift..

what this tells me as well as other peoples post after they went to the track with steeper gears is that the car dosent need gears..

it needs a tire..I shutter to think what kind of ET and mph my car could have if I could just lay into first gear and the 1-2 shift..

ive realized a 1.87 60 foot and 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and an 11.6 at 122-123 mph again BABYING first gear and the 1-2 shift..

Again this was achived after 100 passes of trying to figure this car out..

Why do we need agressive gears for the track when we cant hook up with the stock gears????

My 2.73 geared auto vette couldnt spin in first gear off the line at the drag strip to save it's life. the lil 300 rwhp and 310 Torque at the wheels just was too easy to lay into..A gear change to a 3.73 on this car would result in huge ET and mph gains..And that has been verified on the corvette forum time and time again..


But these gen3's are not 460 at the tire torque like FLATOUT suggested. they are 480-510 at the tire for torque. As well it is the flattest torque curve in the buisness...

I just dont see any benifit other than the awesome feel..

As well with a 3.73 gear. 5th gear may be needed before the end of the 1/4. Again takeeing up valuable tenths that may be gained in the 60 foot (IF he can hook those 3.73's)

It is gonna be VERY interesting reading when he hits the strip. that is for certain