The current and future state of Viper sales and technology

[Bobpantax]

I believe that SRT did exactly that. And that is why the TA was developed to go back to Leguna Seca. I did not say the differences were major. I said that they are not minor. Post number 89 seems to ignore the fact that I stated that the TA is a more minimalist car and that it is not for everybody. BTW, I found the the ballistic nylon seats more comfortable than the GTS seats but that's clearly subjective. I also like the SRT hood ( more hot air removal capability) far more than the original GTS hood but that is no longer important since you can get either hood on the GTS. There are two awesome looking black ones at University Dodge with the SRT hood.

Bob, until you or someone else on here takes a GTS with track pack brakes and aero on the track and then take a TA on the track, you really don't know. You must agree to that. the mid-level brakes you describe are what were used on ACR's, so need to be careful on how you describe them. Just saying, I feel the differences are minor from the same data that you think they are major. It is just opinion. Put them on the track together would show. Please don't confuse some leather in making them very different cars. All are fantastic track cars

back to the topic of the thread.

 

[ScrewDrvr]

Id like to see what the SRT/GTS would run on the P-Zero Corsas that the TA has. That way you could really see what those other improvements actually add to the performance of the car.

 

[Brian E]

The TA has Nylon seats, plastic dash, a harsh ride and stickers instead of emblems.

I may be wrong, but I believe the dash on my TA is leather, and not plastic. I am traveling this week, so I can't walk out to the garage and check. Maybe someone else can check theirs to be sure.

 

[Bobpantax]

It is not plastic.

 

[Stealth]

I stand corrected on the dash. Does it have Laguna Leather like the upgraded leather cars?

FWIW, I very much respect the TA and am thrilled that it exists as a proud member of the Viper family. Certain posts just inflate the realistic differences with the TA and other models. Hopefully, we can put any minor differences aside and just concentrate on celebration of the Gen V. Like others, I have done my part by purchasing a Gen V.

 

[PDCjonny]

Put a competent driver in a 2010 Gen IV ACR and end all doubt about the best car at LS.

 

[ViperSmith]

It isn't leather, it is synthetic leather afaik?

 

[Bobpantax]

Are you saying the last ACR driver who set the record at LS was not competent? I think he was very competent. The tweaks to the 2010 ACR increased its top speed from 177 to 184. (5th gear ratio change and the rear wing tip change.) I do not think that either tweak effects the time at a track like LS. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but is fifth gear used at LS? I was under the impression that it is not.

Put a competent driver in a 2010 Gen IV ACR and end all doubt about the best car at LS.

 

[Bruce H.]

I've wondered about that on occasion myself, but it's hard to check at 150 mph with a 6 pt harness on

 

[Brian E]

I stand corrected on the dash. Does it have Laguna Leather like the upgraded leather cars?

Of course it doesn't. What kind of a BS question is that? For a guy who says he wants everyone to put their differences aside and concentrate on celebrating the Gen 5, you sure post like you just want to win an argument. FWIW, Bob hit the nail on the head in post #88. Thats the type of response I would expect from someone who wants to concentrate on celebrating the Gen 5.

 

[Brian E]

Put a competent driver in a 2010 Gen IV ACR and end all doubt about the best car at LS.

With respect, I think Chris Winkler's 1:33.92 in the 2010 ACR qualifies him as competent.

 

[PDCjonny]

With respect, I think Chris Winkles 1:33.92 in the 2010 ACR qualifies him as competent.

Wrong choice of words.
He was (is) and excellent driver and an excellent engineer. But "competent" is not a race car driver.
Put a race car driver familiar with LS behind the wheel.
This is why Dodge will never run a Gen V (in it's current form) at the 'Ring.
It won't beat the ACR's time.

 

[05Commemorative]

how is this related to this thread?

Put a competent driver in a 2010 Gen IV ACR and end all doubt about the best car at LS.

 

[pathoguy]

all of those who have bought a Gen V and driven it on a road course are very satisfied.

I have a bought a Gen v (traded from an 06 coupe Gen 3) and the car will never see a road course since I have 0 interest in racing. I am still highly satisfied

The HP chatter is pure BS. Real car guys look at HP/weight ratios and other factors. HP bragging rights is for posers

By your definition I am not a real car guy and a poser. Whatever....us posers that buy these type of cars, may represent a larger % of potential/actual buyers than you would like.

have no real experience in the car on a road course

Hey....that's me again. I am simply not worthy. The dealership should have asked for time slips or whatever, before selling me the car.

Seriously Bob......I am thankful that folk that buy these cars, race them, use them the way the car was intended and designed to be used. You should also be thankful that non-racing types like me buy them too. We are the majority without which the viper would certainly be discontinued.

 

[sunsalem]

I am thankful that folk that buy these cars, race them, use them the way the car was intended and designed to be used.

I don't get this...
All three flavors of Viper are STREET CARS.
All 3 are built to comply with govt. mandates for safety (including air bags, crumple zones, etc.).
Heck, these cars don't even have an internal roll cage (something a real Track Car should have).

Sorry about that....[/rant off]

You should also be thankful that non-racing types like me buy them too. We are the majority without which the viper would certainly be discontinued.

Exactly right.

 

[TrackAire]

With respect, I think Chris Winkler's 1:33.92 in the 2010 ACR qualifies him as competent.

I do believe when Chris exited the car he proclaimed there is more left in it for a faster time. I do think Chris is an SCCA racer, but I do not know what his experience or time on Laguna Seca is versus midwest and east coast tracks.

Has Randy Probst ever been timed in a Gen 4 ACR around Laguna Seca? That would make for a valuable comparison since he does so much of the magazine testing around LS.

Also, the SRT guys know within a couple of seconds what the Gen 5 will run around the Ring. Per a conversation with Matt Bejnarowicz of SRT, they calculated what the Gen 4 ACR would be capable of and were pretty much spot on. I'd think they have the same data for the Gen 5 and its potential Ring time. If they thought it could break the record, the car would have already been in Germany. Without the Trofeo's as an option, it is doubtful it can beat the old record with the Gen 4 on sport cups.

 

[Stealth]

I do believe when Chris exited the car he proclaimed there is more left in it for a faster time. I do think Chris is an SCCA racer, but I do not know what his experience or time on Laguna Seca is versus midwest and east coast tracks.

Has Randy Probst ever been timed in a Gen 4 ACR around Laguna Seca? That would make for a valuable comparison since he does so much of the magazine testing around LS.

Also, the SRT guys know within a couple of seconds what the Gen 5 will run around the Ring. Per a conversation with Matt Bejnarowicz of SRT, they calculated what the Gen 4 ACR would be capable of and were pretty much spot on. I'd think they have the same data for the Gen 5 and its potential Ring time. If they thought it could break the record, the car would have already been in Germany. Without the Trofeo's as an option, it is doubtful it can beat the old record with the Gen 4 on sport cups.

A SRT has engineer has apparently stated that the Gen IV ACR is still faster around the Ring than the TA due to 1000lbs of df vs. 300lbs for the TA.

As noted above, they are street cars, so we are just speaking about slightly different flavors/personalities of the cars depending on model and equipment added/ordered with each model. Let's just celebrate the existence and awesomeness of the Gen V!

 

[ScrewDrvr]

Take the front emblem off the ACR and it would run the ring in sub 3 minutes.

 

[Brian E]

Has Randy Probst ever been timed in a Gen 4 ACR around Laguna Seca?

For comparison:

Randy Probst in a 2008 ACR was 1:35.12

Chris Winkler in a 2010 ACR was 1:33.92

Randy Probst in a TA was 1:33.62

 

[PDCjonny]

how is this related to this thread?

It's a thread that has been discussing track times and obviously others have joined in the discussion.
Are you the thread police, noob? Try to pay attention and add something meaningful.

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi. Maybe I did not make myself clear. I am using the word "poser" to describe the person who bad mouths the Gen V based on HP rating and gives the impression that he or she uses that power when they do not and probably could not safely do so. The people who enjoy the beauty and engineering of the Gen V as you do are an important part of the Viper nation.

I have a bought a Gen v (traded from an 06 coupe Gen 3) and the car will never see a road course since I have 0 interest in racing. I am still highly satisfied



By your definition I am not a real car guy and a poser. Whatever....us posers that buy these type of cars, may represent a larger % of potential/actual buyers than you would like.



Hey....that's me again. I am simply not worthy. The dealership should have asked for time slips or whatever, before selling me the car.

Seriously Bob......I am thankful that folk that buy these cars, race them, use them the way the car was intended and designed to be used. You should also be thankful that non-racing types like me buy them too. We are the majority without which the viper would certainly be discontinued.

 

[pathoguy]

Thank you Bob

Not enough is said about how enjoyable and satisfying the gen v can be even in the hands of a relatively non-skilled driver as myself. Even at the speed limit, it's an absolute blast to drive. Loved my Gen 3 and 2, but this one is amazing. Not that it's not still a brute, but it seems to care for me more...so much more forgiving.

 

[sunsalem]

Take the front emblem off the ACR and it would run the ring in sub 3 minutes.

A SRT has engineer has apparently stated that the Gen IV ACR is still faster around the Ring than the TA due to 1000lbs of df vs. 300lbs for the TA.

That's quite a bit of a difference...

Not that it's not still a brute, but it seems to care for me more...so much more forgiving.

All of the mag reviews seem to agree.

 

[Bruce H.]

I don't get this...
All three flavors of Viper are STREET CARS.
All 3 are built to comply with govt. mandates for safety (including air bags, crumple zones, etc.).
Heck, these cars don't even have an internal roll cage (something a real Track Car should have).

They're much more than just a street car!

"Track day cars" are most often also daily driven/drivable licenced street cars, often with simple mods to help their performance and durability on the track. They seldom have additional safety equipment like roll bars and ages. All models of Corvettes, Porsche, Nissan Z's/GT-R, and exotics like Vipers, Ferrari, Lambos, McLarens, etc are good examples. These street cars are the most common type of car used at track days on road course race tracks around the country. They are very suitable track cars for enthusiasts to use on the race track, but don't have the additional safety features common to "dedicated" track cars. Vipers is particularly well-suited to being used as a track day car because SRT specifically designs, builds and tests them for performance and endurance for this purpose, and for buyers who choose them for this purpose. They require no modifications at all to survive grueling race track use. I chose my Gen V for this "track day" use.

Dedicated track cars are more commonly street cars that aren't used on the street, and typically include modifications that preclude them from street use. That could be off-road only modifications, non-streetable body modifications, removal of airbags, or addition of other safety equipment like a roll cage. They are simply street cars that have been modified to the point they can't be used on the street. All models of Corvettes, Porsche, Nissan Z's/GT-R, and exotics like Vipers, Ferrari, Lambos, McLarens, etc are good examples still. Vipers is particularly well-suited to being used as a track day car because SRT specifically designs, builds and tests them for performance and endurance for this purpose, and for buyers who choose them for this purpose. I could have chosen my Gen V as a dedicated track car, and am not all that far off from that actually. I would not need to do any modification for this use other than the 6 pt harness I installed already. If you were to see the massive roll hoop that is built into every Gen V's roof hidden by the head liner, and that the hatch attaches to, you would think they covered that off at the factory pretty well...but it has not been tested and certified as a roll bar for racing purposes. The extent of the modifications to dedicated track cars may also qualify them to be used for racing in sanctioned events.

"Race cars" are often street cars, are classed as such, and meet the safety requirements of racing bodies. All Gen V's could be modified for this use and would require the addition of the usual safety features like fuel cells and roll bars/cages as per class requirements. At the top of this group is the Gen V based GT3-R race cars run in the Tudor race series GTD class, with recent victories by Ben Keating and Kuno Wittmer. It uses the same factory Gen V chassis that is in all of our Gen V's with only minor relocation of suspension attachment points allowed in that class, which in part allows teams to make easy set-up changes. The engine is the same, although power is reduced with restrictor plates partly blocking intake airflow. This was made possible because the Gen V was designed from the outset to be raced and used on race tracks by a wide range of users.

So, it is unlikely that many other streetable cars were designed with such focus on racing as the Gen V Viper, and even fewer can be driven straight out of the showroom and onto the track without any modification. Mine took just 7 days, and I even rolled over the required 500 mile break-in period while driving to the track. It's been used there 7 days now and runs well within its design specifications according to all sensors, monitors and wear indicators. It is also likely the closest thing to a purpose built race car that you can purchase today, and a bargain at that for those that place value on those capabilities. SRT did a good job of wrapping its track/race car into an appealing package for other users, but it's racing intentions are evident everywhere to those familar with race car design. And some of them are the source of criticism by street only users.

Sunsalem,

I'm curious about your interest in the Gen V. I think I recall seeing that you've owned other Gens in the past, or still do. Are you planning a Gen V purchase, or more enjoying forum participation at this time?

Bruce

 

[05Commemorative]

Actually was paying attention. It was about track times comparing GenV TA vs GTS vs SRT in case you were not aware. There was no mention or need to mention the Gen4 unless you wanted to bring up the news Brian E does in post #109...(which I suspect you did not want to see and still probably don't believe) So, to you, please add something useful to the discussion that was being had. If you have some info on comparing the TA vs GTS vs SRT, please share.

It's a thread that has been discussing track times and obviously others have joined in the discussion.
Are you the thread police, noob? Try to pay attention and add something meaningful.

 

[sunsalem]

"Track day cars" are most often also daily driven/drivable licenced street cars, often with simple mods to help their performance and durability on the track. They seldom have additional safety equipment like roll bars and ages. All models of Corvettes, Porsche, Nissan Z's/GT-R, and exotics like Vipers, Ferrari, Lambos, McLarens, etc are good examples. These street cars are the most common type of car used at track days on road course race tracks around the country. They are very suitable track cars for enthusiasts to use on the race track, but don't have the additional safety features common to "dedicated" track cars. Vipers is particularly well-suited to being used as a track day car because SRT specifically designs, builds and tests them for performance and endurance for this purpose, and for buyers who choose them for this purpose. They require no modifications at all to survive grueling race track use. I chose my Gen V for this "track day" use.

OK, a "Track Day Car"is licensed to drive on the street.
In other words: a car....NOT something specific to a brand or model.

A car which sometimes can be taken to a racetrack on Open Track Days/Nights, but not a "Track Car."

Dedicated track cars are more commonly street cars that aren't used on the street, and typically include modifications that preclude them from street use. That could be off-road only modifications, non-streetable body modifications, removal of airbags, or addition of other safety equipment like a roll cage. They are simply street cars that have been modified to the point they can't be used on the street.

Is there anyone on this forum who has done this to their Gen 5?

"Race cars" are often street cars, are classed as such, and meet the safety requirements of racing bodies. All Gen V's could be modified for this use and would require the addition of the usual safety features like fuel cells and roll bars/cages as per class requirements. At the top of this group is the Gen V based GT3-R race cars run in the Tudor race series GTD class, with recent victories by Ben Keating and Kuno Wittmer. It uses the same factory Gen V chassis that is in all of our Gen V's with only minor relocation of suspension attachment points allowed in that class, which in part allows teams to make easy set-up changes. The engine is the same, although power is reduced with restrictor plates partly blocking intake airflow. This was made possible because the Gen V was designed from the outset to be raced and used on race tracks by a wide range of users.

So, it is unlikely that many other streetable cars were designed with such focus on racing as the Gen V Viper, and even fewer can be driven straight out of the showroom and onto the track without any modification. Mine took just 7 days, and I even rolled over the required 500 mile break-in period while driving to the track. It's been used there 7 days now and runs well within its design specifications according to all sensors, monitors and wear indicators. It is also likely the closest thing to a purpose built race car that you can purchase today, and a bargain at that for those that place value on those capabilities. SRT did a good job of wrapping its track/race car into an appealing package for other users, but it's racing intentions are evident everywhere to those familar with race car design. And some of them are the source of criticism by street only users.

I don't know why you continue to attempt to inflate the production street vehicle as a "track/race car," while downplaying the differences in the Riley-built GTS-R and GT3-R racecars.
I don't get it.

I'm curious about your interest in the Gen V. I think I recall seeing that you've owned other Gens in the past, or still do. Are you planning a Gen V purchase, or more enjoying forum participation at this time?

I will add a Gen 5 to my stable when/if a DCT is an option.

 

[Nine Ball]

You guys are definitely passionate about the stats and records. Some of you race, and have a good feel for subtle differences. The rest, probably just reading too many magazines. The biggest factor is driver skill, we all know this. The best stats in the world won't result in better lap times on my own car. I passed a few ACR's at the last Viper track day... In my 100% stock 2014 Camaro. Guarantee the stats and specs were heavily against me. And, I don't consider myself a pro race driver, just a good amateur. Racing beats reading articles, any day.

 

[Bruce H.]

Is there anyone on this forum who has done this to their Gen 5?

Early days still for the Gen V. Hardly anyone tracks them at all...and even fewer are likely to do it as a dedicated track car for some time. Sales would be a lot stronger if there were more track rats buying in the $100+ k range, but they more typically jump on a platform when examples can be found at much lower used car prices. The Gen V could and should be among their top picks when that time comes. I think there's probably a lot of ACR's that are used as dedicated track cars, and the ACR-X was factory built as one.

One example of a dedicated Gen V track car would be me deciding one day to only use mine on the track, which is a very real possibility, and a factor in my choosing the TA. I've already got the 6 points in it, and I've already demonstrated that it needs no mods to survive or excell at the track. I might opt at some point to use a Hans device, and I might even choose to use slicks, not likely nothing beyond that. The perfect dedicated track car, and I'm sure many with frequent track experience would share that view.

I don't know why you continue to attempt to inflate the production street vehicle as a "track/race car,"

That would be because I own one, use it on the track in a serious manner, and know what I'm talking about.

while downplaying the differences in the Riley-built GTS-R and GT3-R racecars.
I don't get it.

I haven't mentioned the GTS-R at all, and my only reference to the GT3-R was that two very key components were sourced from production street car...and helps to demonstrate that the Gen V was designed to include serious track and race use. I suspect you do get it, but just don't want to accept it.

I will add a Gen 5 to my stable when/if a DCT is an option.

LOL...that figures, and explains an awful lot. Thank you

 

[sunsalem]

Early days still for the Gen V. Hardly anyone tracks them at all...and even fewer are likely to do it as a dedicated track car for some time. Sales would be a lot stronger if there were more track rats buying in the $100+ k range, but they more typically jump on a platform when examples can be found at much lower used car prices. The Gen V could and should be among their top picks when that time comes. I think there's probably a lot of ACR's that are used as dedicated track cars, and the ACR-X was factory built as one.

Wouldn't disagree.

One example of a dedicated Gen V track car would be me deciding one day to only use mine on the track, which is a very real possibility, and a factor in my choosing the TA. I've already got the 6 points in it, and I've already demonstrated that it needs no mods to survive or excell at the track. I might opt at some point to use a Hans device, and I might even choose to use slicks, not likely nothing beyond that. The perfect dedicated track car, and I'm sure many with frequent track experience would share that view.

Your choice.

That would be because I own one, use it on the track in a serious manner, and know what I'm talking about.
I suspect you do get it, but just don't want to accept it.

What I don't "accept" is why you (and others) continue with this line portraying the G5 as primarily a "track car."
It is not intended as such.
An owner CAN take his G5 to a track and have a great time in the car.
This is something anyone can do with any car.
I COULD take my Tesla to a track, but I would never call it a "track car."

LOL...that figures, and explains an awful lot. Thank you

By owning a G2 for over a decade disqualifies me from talking about the G5?

Bruce, I respect your passion.
Also, I am not interested in getting into a pi$$ing contest with you or anyone else on this forum about any subject.
Seriously, I am NOT.
However, if I feel something someone posts is debatable, I will put in my 2 pennies.

 

[Bruce H.]

What I don't "accept" is why you (and others) continue with this line portraying the G5 as primarily a "track car."
It is not intended as such.
An owner CAN take his G5 to a track and have a great time in the car.
This is something anyone can do with any car.
I COULD take my Tesla to a track, but I would never call it a "track car."

I never said it is "primarily" a track car, nor intended to give that impression, nor have I seen anyone else make that claim. The motorsports goals of SRT's Viper design team are known to many, and I'll just leave it and this thread there.