The Elephant in the room

[WANTED]

The letter sounds nice, but how about some numbers to back it up?
How many renewals have been paid for 2014?
It says that all regions are still accounted for. How many people are in each of those regions now? The vast majority of the existing regions left the VCA. By saying that all regions are accounted for, that could mean there's a lot of "1 person" regions.

I know the Bob's will jump on this post as just another VCA bashing post, but why won't the VCA answer these simple questions?

If people choose the VCA, VOA, both or neither, that is fully up to them. I just don't want people to make their choice(s) based on the misinformation (unless they actually answer the questions in writing) contained in the VCA email above.

because it is another relentless post from a hater. lucky for you the mods let you continue this.

 

[TowDawg]

Lucky for me?
All I am asking are simple questions that someone should have the answer to in order to make an informed decision on what they want to do.
How would you feel if you read that email and decided to join/re-join, and then find out in 2014 that your entire region is a now only a couple of people (or only a couple of "active" people)? Or found out that there aren't enough members to even sustain the club?

I am NOT saying that's the case, but with all of the happenings and the large enrollment elsewhere, it's a very distinct possibility. If the questions are answered as to enrollment and numbers in your area, then you can make your own, informed, decision.
I don't see that is hateful.

 

[Bobpantax]

I think there may be a very large elephant in the other club's room. How come there are no term limits for the officers and directors of the other club? Or, are there? Those who formed the core group of the other club were all officers and /or directors in the VCA national and regional ranks for years - in some cases, by their own admission, more than a decade. The new club's national board is being touted as "the solution" because it includes the existing regional presidents who allegedly have chosen to be involved in the new club. ( By the way, how many of the seceding regions actually had two presentations and a member wide vote versus making a "board" decision which is same old same old?)

But doesn't this guarantee greybeard entrenchment? When does younger, newer blood get a chance? The VCA's proposed new bylaws have term limits. How long is everyone expected to have to treat the alleged "founding fathers" as gods? They volunteered. Some did a great job. OK. Thanks. Now move on and let the next generation take over. Neither club should be a place where those who may not have enough power in their "regular life" for one reason or another, seek to accumulate and keep power forever in club leadership. To do so is sad and pathetic.

 

[FOViper]

But doesn't this guarantee greybeard entrenchment? When does younger, newer blood get a chance? The VCA's proposed new bylaws have term limits. How long is everyone expected to have to treat the alleged "founding fathers" as gods? They volunteered. Some did a great job. OK. Thanks. Now move on and let the next generation take over. Neither club should be a place where those who may not have enough power in their "regular life" for one reason or another, seek to accumulate and keep power forever in club leadership. To do so is sad and pathetic.

LMAO at the VCA pointing fingers at ANY car club after recent events regarding any leaders with a God complex. ***, meet kettle


Still waiting for answers from a *** member or ZD.

 

[ROCKET62]

Bob, your insightful posts may be the best advertisement for the other club.

I think there may be a very large elephant in the other club's room. How come there are no term limits for the officers and directors of the other club? Or, are there? Those who formed the core group of the other club were all officers and /or directors in the VCA national and regional ranks for years - in some cases, by their own admission, more than a decade. The new club's national board is being touted as "the solution" because it includes the existing regional presidents who allegedly have chosen to be involved in the new club. ( By the way, how many of the seceding regions actually had two presentations and a member wide vote versus making a "board" decision which is same old same old?)

But doesn't this guarantee greybeard entrenchment? When does younger, newer blood get a chance? The VCA's proposed new bylaws have term limits. How long is everyone expected to have to treat the alleged "founding fathers" as gods? They volunteered. Some did a great job. OK. Thanks. Now move on and let the next generation take over. Neither club should be a place where those who may not have enough power in their "regular life" for one reason or another, seek to accumulate and keep power forever in club leadership. To do so is sad and pathetic.

 

[Paul Hawker]

I have also observed that there is "not a dimes worth of difference" between the two clubs, but more of a power struggle continuing by the same people that were on the old Board of Directors starting up a new club.

It is for the most part, not a new club, but just another club. It is made up by the same old entrenched VCA leadership, Same old VCA Regional Presidents, same membership, the same dues, the same magazine, the same By-laws (for the most part), the same advertisers, the same forum, the same premium membership (that gives those that pay more some kind of elite status in magazine and forum). There are some small structural differences, some of which are to empower the regional presidents, but little that will be of any signifiance to the rank and file members.

They wear the same type of clothes, bought on they same type of forums,but with different logos, drive the same cars, they both worship at the altar of Ralph and SRT. They both try to get the manufacturer to throw special events that only their club can attend. The new club has offered the Presidents of each region to become Board Members to appeal to their ego's (think about it) but do not really give them any more power. How many of the new presidents have helped writting the by-laws or choosing who will lead them. They really did not get a Vote on much, but have to join and go along,to see what they will really get. Some substance for sure, but also lots of smoke and mirrors clouded by slogans of power to the people.

I read some of the posts of why people are changing over to the new club, but after reading their VOA by-laws and comparing it to what I read on the proposed new VCA By-Laws that there is little really significant difference between them except the new cub is getting rid of the Zone Directors and requiring each Regional President to go one on one with their national board to voice complaints or get anything done.

I do also notice on their forums that if you dispute anything the secret "vote" has determined you are stifled by a flock of fan boys saying you are not a team player, and that you should go along to get along. They will not relent until you see the error of your ways and comply. (note the Viper truck membership fiasco)

I know as Western Zone Director of VCA I often was called to mediate between Regional Presidents and the National Board. It was my job to help the Presidents get their point across and bring upon a resolution. I often would get several Presidents together to make their needs known and help them have an advocate when dealing with the Board. Also, when the Board wanted to have consistant communications with items such as Zone Rendezvous I would assist in such coordination. I would also help the bringing new Regional Presidents up to speed and share best practices with them that other Presidents had shared with me.

Zone Directors were a great management training tool, where Regional Presidents could see how someone would do with leading a Zone before asking to lead on the National Board. They could see if he was a team player, dedicated to helping the club prosper, or just out for his own personal gain. Would also give that previous Regional President some experience leading other Regions, and coming up to speed before stepping up to National. I did not see any formal pathway in the new club by-laws to train and give experience to anyone to prepare them for a national leadership role. Both clubs need to provide opportunities for new "fresh blood" with fresh ways to come up the ranks to provide a continuing supply of fresh, and well trained leadership, other wise we are doomed to repeat the issues of the past. The idea of just leaving elections of new board member up to a "personality contest" could lead to an internal coup from anyone with a snappy slogan. (Hope and Change, Long Live…, We are in the right, God is on our side, We are Pure…They are Corrupt, this has to be done, it's Bush's Fault, I like IKE…anything that is catchy)

I am a bit concerned about the new club being pretty Internet centric. I know in many clubs, many members do not feel comfortable doing everything on the computer. We would add that personal touch with them to keep them in the loop. Not everyone spends much time on their computers and they also need to feel like they are not being left out in a club where all voting, communication and registration is done over computers. Sure this will work itself out, but for non computer centric members, still it is worrisome to me. (now I know that everyone on these forums had mad computer skills, but many members go for weeks without turning on their computers)

I kind of lump these two clubs the same as two religous sects. They each follow different leaders (profits) and call each others unbelievers, but underneath it all they are the same people, just waiving different colored banners. They will fight each other, and attempt to destroy each other so each can be the one true and rightful club of the ViperNation. Kind of look at the middle East at this time of year when religion is the center of most of the conflict.

One club = Peace, Unity, Strength, and occasional house cleaning.
Two Clubs = Hatred, fighting, squabbling, discord, brother against brother, anger, anxiety, back-biting, undermining, loathing, envy.

You can see it unveiling itself on this vary forum.

 

[Bobpantax]

Thank you. You know at this time of year there is a great deal of wax around. Perhaps one fund raiser for the new club can be the manufacture and sale of wax statuettes of the self proclaimed new club Viper Nation saviors who arose from the past to create your future.

All of the problems that arose in the VCA can easily be attributed to an entrenched leadership.

And many, if not all, of the leaders of the new club were part of that entrenched leadership. ( And before they protest, people should be aware of the fact that everyone had equal access to all data including the VCA's check book at the annual President's meetings/retreats going back many years. If local members were not apprised of data it was because their local leaders chose not to pay attention to the data and/or chose not to share the data with their local members. The fact of the matter is that a few have been blamed for the acts of more than a few.)

No amount of BS and splinter group Obama like spin raids on this site can change that fact.

Just once I would like to read or hear the new club leaders say "We screwed up too. We were there. We enjoyed the fruits of our leadership positions for so long that we took too much for granted." Did some of them act like they woke up? Yes. But that does not wipe out the years when they were part of the problem and any reasonable person knows that.

To me those who stayed to clean up the mess have shown far more character and dedication to the Viper nation than those who left and now use Lee's inappropriate actions before he resigned regarding some of the then Board members as an excuse for their departure.

Bob, your insightful posts may be the best advertisement for the other club.

 

[CWhiteRun]

So it appears my posts are still requiring moderator approval - what's up with that? I thought that ended weeks/months back?

Nope. It continues for about 50-55 VCA members they are trying to silence. Great club, eh?

 

[knuk]

I have also observed that there is "not a dimes worth of difference" between the two clubs, but more of a power struggle continuing by the same people that were on the old Board of Directors starting up a new club.

It is for the most part, not a new club, but just another club. It is made up by the same old entrenched VCA leadership, Same old VCA Regional Presidents, same membership, the same dues, the same magazine, the same By-laws (for the most part), the same advertisers, the same forum, the same premium membership (that gives those that pay more some kind of elite status in magazine and forum). There are some small structural differences, some of which are to empower the regional presidents, but little that will be of any signifiance to the rank and file members.

They wear the same type of clothes, bought on they same type of forums,but with different logos, drive the same cars, they both worship at the altar of Ralph and SRT. They both try to get the manufacturer to throw special events that only their club can attend. The new club has offered the Presidents of each region to become Board Members to appeal to their ego's (think about it) but do not really give them any more power. How many of the new presidents have helped writting the by-laws or choosing who will lead them. They really did not get a Vote on much, but have to join and go along,to see what they will really get. Some substance for sure, but also lots of smoke and mirrors clouded by slogans of power to the people.

I read some of the posts of why people are changing over to the new club, but after reading their VOA by-laws and comparing it to what I read on the proposed new VCA By-Laws that there is little really significant difference between them except the new cub is getting rid of the Zone Directors and requiring each Regional President to go one on one with their national board to voice complaints or get anything done.

I do also notice on their forums that if you dispute anything the secret "vote" has determined you are stifled by a flock of fan boys saying you are not a team player, and that you should go along to get along. They will not relent until you see the error of your ways and comply. (note the Viper truck membership fiasco)

I know as Western Zone Director of VCA I often was called to mediate between Regional Presidents and the National Board. It was my job to help the Presidents get their point across and bring upon a resolution. I often would get several Presidents together to make their needs known and help them have an advocate when dealing with the Board. Also, when the Board wanted to have consistant communications with items such as Zone Rendezvous I would assist in such coordination. I would also help the bringing new Regional Presidents up to speed and share best practices with them that other Presidents had shared with me.

Zone Directors were a great management training tool, where Regional Presidents could see how someone would do with leading a Zone before asking to lead on the National Board. They could see if he was a team player, dedicated to helping the club prosper, or just out for his own personal gain. Would also give that previous Regional President some experience leading other Regions, and coming up to speed before stepping up to National. I did not see any formal pathway in the new club by-laws to train and give experience to anyone to prepare them for a national leadership role. Both clubs need to provide opportunities for new "fresh blood" with fresh ways to come up the ranks to provide a continuing supply of fresh, and well trained leadership, other wise we are doomed to repeat the issues of the past. The idea of just leaving elections of new board member up to a "personality contest" could lead to an internal coup from anyone with a snappy slogan. (Hope and Change, Long Live…, We are in the right, God is on our side, We are Pure…They are Corrupt, this has to be done, it's Bush's Fault, I like IKE…anything that is catchy)

I am a bit concerned about the new club being pretty Internet centric. I know in many clubs, many members do not feel comfortable doing everything on the computer. We would add that personal touch with them to keep them in the loop. Not everyone spends much time on their computers and they also need to feel like they are not being left out in a club where all voting, communication and registration is done over computers. Sure this will work itself out, but for non computer centric members, still it is worrisome to me. (now I know that everyone on these forums had mad computer skills, but many members go for weeks without turning on their computers)

I kind of lump these two clubs the same as two religous sects. They each follow different leaders (profits) and call each others unbelievers, but underneath it all they are the same people, just waiving different colored banners. They will fight each other, and attempt to destroy each other so each can be the one true and rightful club of the ViperNation. Kind of look at the middle East at this time of year when religion is the center of most of the conflict.

One club = Peace, Unity, Strength, and occasional house cleaning.
Two Clubs = Hatred, fighting, squabbling, discord, brother against brother, anger, anxiety, back-biting, undermining, loathing, envy.

You can see it unveiling itself on this vary forum.

3 term president here in the western zone. Through one of my terms the ZD never contacted me.....
I sent a request once for monetary help with a zone event and was totally run down by the ZD . If anyone is interested in the email trail regarding this, I have it all.
So I say cut out the ZD .... Something VOA has done. Smart.
In fact, I will dig up the emails and post them here.

 

[CWhiteRun]

because it is another relentless post from a hater. lucky for you the mods let you continue this.

This picture of WANTED needs to be posted again, fits the girl so well:

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Bobpantax]

Perhaps you may be in need of this product. Your post seems to indicate an excessive level of stress. I apologize. Your vocabulary usage was too good to waste or not waste. LOL.

White Enamel German Complete ****** Enema - a photo on Flickriver

because it is another relentless post from a hater. lucky for you the mods let you continue this.[/QUOTE

You are not even a member you punk. at least sign up so as not to show your Hipocricy. You are a complete ******.....................

 

[Sam Goldfarb]

How ever the Viper World got there it's there! All the spin and all the BS isn't going to change the fact that there are about 3-4 legitimate VCA chapters left. There are 30 or so VOA Regions with about 1000 total members at this point. Can the VCA survive? Possibly. Can it do the same things it's done in the past? Sure! Magazine reduced in size, quantity and frequency, Check! VOI's reduced in size if at all. Check. Change the by-laws to what will better serve the remaining members, Check! However, the smoke machine is broken and everyone's butts are sewn shut. We're all from Missouri now and it's time to Show Us!

I will reveal that I was one of two people in Ohio that voted to wait and see with regard to the move from VCA to VOA. I was willing to allow the new leadership a chance to right the ship. They were given a tough task and an impossible job and yet I still felt it would be easier to fix it than start completely over. I had offered to help and was ignored by the previous leadership.

As far as the myth that the "Old" Presidents are still trying to keep their "power". What power? It's an unpaid often thankless job. It involves trying to entice a few more volunteers to spend days, weeks and months helping coordinate, setup, cleanup and find a way to pay for events where people show up spend a couple hours and ****! I was the Ohio Secretary for 7 years, if there was pay and perks I was completely screwed! All it did was cost me time, money and hair!

We have held elections many times, in Ohio, where we could get no volunteers for a position , let alone finding someone to run against them. When things are good, why make a change just for change sake? Rather than berating, criticizing and ridiculing the old VCA officers blindly I would like to thank all past and present officers that served! If there were a few that benefited or took advantage of their positions, shame on them! But to lump all together and dismiss them all would be foolish and completely ignorant! The facts that were known were laid out and regions voted, stay or go. For some reason certain people don't want to reveal the results? Transparency? I think not!

 

[knuk]

How ever the Viper World got there it's there! All the spin and all the BS isn't going to change the fact that there are about 3-4 legitimate VCA chapters left. There are 30 or so VOA Regions with about 1000 total members at this point. Can the VCA survive? Possibly. Can it do the same things it's done in the past? Sure! Magazine reduced in size, quantity and frequency, Check! VOI's reduced in size if at all. Check. Change the by-laws to what will better serve the remaining members, Check! However, the smoke machine is broken and everyone's butts are sewn shut. We're all from Missouri now and it's time to Show Us! I will reveal that I was one of two people in Ohio that voted to wait and see with regard to the move from VCA to VOA. I was willing to allow the new leadership a chance to right the ship. They were given a tough task and an impossible job and yet I still felt it would be easier to fix it than start completely over. I had offered to help and was ignored by the previous leadership. As far as the myth that the "Old" Presidents are still trying to keep their "power". What power? It's an unpaid often thankless job. It involves trying to entice a few more volunteers to spend days, weeks and months helping coordinate, setup, cleanup and find a way to pay for events where people show up spend a couple hours and ****! I was the Ohio Secretary for 7 years, if there was pay and perks I was completely screwed! All it did was cost me time, money and hair! We have held elections many times, in Ohio, where we could get no volunteers for a position , let alone finding someone to run against them. When things are good, why make a change just for change sake? Rather than berating, criticizing and ridiculing the old VCA officers blindly I would like to thank all past and present officers that served! If there were a few that benefited or took advantage of their positions, shame on them! But to lump all together and dismiss them all would be foolish and completely ignorant! The facts that were known were laid out and regions voted, stay or go. For some reason certain people don't want to reveal the results? Transparency? I think not!

Very well said.

 

[doctorbob]

LOL......Bob where do you find that stuff ?

 

[FOViper]

All of the problems that arose in the VCA can easily be attributed to an entrenched leadership.

100% agree with this and the fact that they had to much power.

And many, if not all, of the leaders of the new club were part of that entrenched leadership. ( And before they protest, people should be aware of the fact that everyone had equal access to all data including the VCA's check book at the annual President's meetings/retreats going back many years. If local members were not apprised of data it was because their local leaders chose not to pay attention to the data and/or chose not to share the data with their local members. The fact of the matter is that a few have been blamed for the acts of more than a few.)

So blame the people getting scammed, not the scammer themself?

Everytime you post Bob I think more people sign up for the new club. I'm sure they love it

 

[Gustfront]

LOL......Bob where do you find that stuff ?

If only he was as diligent at finding the answers to the real questions asked here. Like for instance, the answer to post 17.


Looks like Mr Goldfarb from Ohio has his facts down though. Well said sir.

 

[TowDawg]

Lots of replies by people (from both sides) taking shots, but still no answers to simple questions.
Wanted, take a look at my posts and then the posts from VCA officers or Bob. Really step back and take a look at them. Mine ask legitimate questions for legitimate reasons (that are very easy to answer). The responses ignore the simple questions and turn to mud slinging against another club. If you can't see that objectively, then I can't help you.
Bob P, it's funny that you bring up Obama, as the VCA has become exactly like ObamaCare. We're not going to answer any of your real questions. We'll just tell you that everything is great, and you'll have to re-join in order to see what's happening. We're seeing how the ObamaCare debacle is unfolding before our eyes.

With the complete lack of transparency and mistrust that has come to the VCA recently, I would much rather see an actual answer to questions than the complete silence that we are seeing. Even if the membership numbers are down, tell the truth. Ignoring legitimate questions and slinging insults at others instead is making a lot of people's decisions much easier. An honest answer (even if it's not a great one) would likely go much further and at least show people that they are being heard.

 

[GRANGER73]

You are not even a member, you punk. at least sign up so as not to show your Hipocricy. You are a complete ******.....................

And when are you joining?

 

[Bobpantax]

From the new club's Bylaws. See below. There are no term limits for the national offficers except the President and the limits on the President are illusory. There is a very big difference between the two clubs and I hope that the younger members who would like to participate in leadership recognize that fact. The VCA's new bylaws have meaningful term limits so that the entrenched leadership phenomenon that caused the problems does not happen again.

Merry Christmas to all.



There is no limit to the number of terms, consecutive or otherwise, that a member may be elected asa National Vice President, National Secretary or National Treasurer. The National President maynot be elected to more than two consecutive terms. After a President has completed that secondterm, they must wait at least one (l) term before being eligible to be elected again to the office ofPresident provided, however, the latter term limitation for the National President position may bewaived by a vote of at least two-thirds of the National Board. Any such waiver shall be votedupon no later than forty-five (45) days before the next affected National Officer election.

 

[knuk]

From the new club's Bylaws. See below. There are no term limits for the national offficers except the President and the limits on the President are illusory. There is a very big difference between the two clubs and I hope that the younger members who would like to participate in leadership recognize that fact. The VCA's new bylaws have meaningful term limits so that the entrenched leadership phenomenon that caused the problems does not happen again.

Merry Christmas to all.



There is no limit to the number of terms, consecutive or otherwise, that a member may be elected asa National Vice President, National Secretary or National Treasurer. The National President maynot be elected to more than two consecutive terms. After a President has completed that secondterm, they must wait at least one (l) term before being eligible to be elected again to the office ofPresident provided, however, the latter term limitation for the National President position may bewaived by a vote of at least two-thirds of the National Board. Any such waiver shall be votedupon no later than forty-five (45) days before the next affected National Officer election.

Although, let's not lose sight of what brought around change to the VCA by-laws....
Too bad that what led up to the changes broke the club up and quite likely has put an end to the VCA.

At any rate, this is not a time for debate! Merry Christmas to all of you and your families. Best of the season!

 

[Coloviper]

Bob, Christmas or not, let's set the record straight! Why should all the members and new "younger" members (whatever you mean by that comment, like you are Father Viper or something), listen to your interpretation of the by-laws as you understand them in either club with your usual spin? FACT: You were one of the main proponents of the VCA by-law changes the last time they changed in a vacuum which brought about the unlimited power of the corrupt leadership at the top at that time. Your verbal actions and vehemently defend and outright bullying of anyone that even questioned those bylaw changes at the time are what open the door for the major issues. I believe you said something similar to "why question any of this or any of them as they know a lot more than we do about how to run a car club", then attacked anyone that questioned them. Sorry but you are wrong on the spin of any bylaws with this or the other club and your actions to date have lost all credibility. For those that dispute this go back a few years to circa 2010 and look up what Bobby was spinning then and come back to trust him now. I applaud the VCA Bylaw changes for the better but Bob, you have no position to question any other clubs bylaws with your twisted interpretations let alone this club. With that said, I am going home to my family to enjoy the holidays and put all this on the back burner. Merry Christmas to everyone, and yes Bob, I still wish you Merry Christmas as well! Hopefully in the New Year you can start being more straightforward as opposed to twisted!

 

[Sam Goldfarb]

From the new club's Bylaws. See below. There are no term limits for the national offficers except the President and the limits on the President are illusory. There is a very big difference between the two clubs and I hope that the younger members who would like to participate in leadership recognize that fact. The VCA's new bylaws have meaningful term limits so that the entrenched leadership phenomenon that caused the problems does not happen again.

Merry Christmas to all.



There is no limit to the number of terms, consecutive or otherwise, that a member may be elected asa National Vice President, National Secretary or National Treasurer. The National President maynot be elected to more than two consecutive terms. After a President has completed that secondterm, they must wait at least one (l) term before being eligible to be elected again to the office ofPresident provided, however, the latter term limitation for the National President position may bewaived by a vote of at least two-thirds of the National Board. Any such waiver shall be votedupon no later than forty-five (45) days before the next affected National Officer election.

While I sometimes agree with your points and generally understand what you say, I must state that I disagree with all term limitations anywhere! In our National politics the first term is spent kissing butts of those that put you there and then lining up new asses to get you the second term. There you work on your legacy and set up all your relatives and friends for life. If a person is good and times are good leave them alone! If they don't do their jobs, impeach them! Why even wait for their term to expire?

The reality of the Viper Community is that there are a select few ever willing to serve in the volunteer positions, whether that be at a Regional level or a National level. Some of those that volunteer or are elected are actually not qualified to lead and simply become the social director of a party or an engineer guiding a train wreck. A very limited few have taken advantage of their clubs and used it for personal gain. Putting "new blood" in all the time doesn't ensure success or failure, but if I had to wager I would opt for the latter! Let's examine it with an example or two! Would you rather fight a battle with 20 Navy Seals and/or Green Berets beside you or fifty 18-20 year old FNGs with no combat experience. Would you prefer to have a heart specialist that's had 20 years in the trenches or last years Head Intern working on you in a crisis?

Term limits were made so that those not in power could force the ruling party to try and find someone just like the person that has to leave. It also gives them time to mount an offense and put spin, doubt and blame on anything and everything they can dream up to gain control and become exactly what they so claimed to hate!

 

[doctorbob]

Poor analogy. I do not think the comparison of Navy Seals to Viper Club volunteers is appropriate. BobP is suggesting younger members get involved since they will be the future of the club.

Term limits should occur nationally....you cannot argue the long term corruption you see in the House and Senate. If you are making that point, that means Obama could run for multiple terms.

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi Sam. Term limits for some things do not make sense. For clubs, they do. Why? Because without change, cliques form and internal, exclusive, good old boy, cultures become entrenched. That is what happened in the VCA. That is what really caused all the problems. Nothing prevents the greybeards from being trusted advisors. That is their proper role. It is crucial in a club that the leadership change and be updated so that fresh air can come in every once in a while.

How many times have we seen an entrenched leadership cause problems in a Temple, a Church, a country club, a professional organization, etc. A car club is a car club. People do not ask to lead if the perception is that they will not be supported by the good old boy network.

Best,

Bob

While I sometimes agree with your points and generally understand what you say, I must state that I disagree with all term limitations anywhere! In our National politics the first term is spent kissing butts of those that put you there and then lining up new asses to get you the second term. There you work on your legacy and set up all your relatives and friends for life. If a person is good and times are good leave them alone! If they don't do their jobs, impeach them! Why even wait for their term to expire?

The reality of the Viper Community is that there are a select few ever willing to serve in the volunteer positions, whether that be at a Regional level or a National level. Some of those that volunteer or are elected are actually not qualified to lead and simply become the social director of a party or an engineer guiding a train wreck. A very limited few have taken advantage of their clubs and used it for personal gain. Putting "new blood" in all the time doesn't ensure success or failure, but if I had to wager I would opt for the latter! Let's examine it with an example or two! Would you rather fight a battle with 20 Navy Seals and/or Green Berets beside you or fifty 18-20 year old FNGs with no combat experience. Would you prefer to have a heart specialist that's had 20 years in the trenches or last years Head Intern working on you in a crisis?

Term limits were made so that those not in power could force the ruling party to try and find someone just like the person that has to leave. It also gives them time to mount an offense and put spin, doubt and blame on anything and everything they can dream up to gain control and become exactly what they so claimed to hate!

 

[GRANGER73]

While I sometimes agree with your points and generally understand what you say, I must state that I disagree with all term limitations anywhere! In our National politics the first term is spent kissing butts of those that put you there and then lining up new asses to get you the second term. There you work on your legacy and set up all your relatives and friends for life. If a person is good and times are good leave them alone! If they don't do their jobs, impeach them! Why even wait for their term to expire?!

Couldn't disagree more. Term limits are a good thing. But I also agree with you that it's tough to find enough folks to fill the jobs. It's a problem. However your comparison to National Politics is a little misdirected. This is a car club. Kissing ass to get a second term is the perfect argument for limitation. "If a person is good and times are good leave them alone!" That's a little scary.

 

[Sam Goldfarb]

Poor analogy. I do not think the comparison of Navy Seals to Viper Club volunteers is appropriate. BobP is suggesting younger member get involved since they will be the future of the club.

Term limits should occur nationally....you cannot argue the long term corruption you see in the House and Senate. If you are making that point, that means Obama could run for multiple terms.

I agree with you, bad example or bad interpretation? I was actually using it to compare the age and experience qualities of different people. Want to throw a bunch of kids with learners permits into a Nascar race? They are the future after all and they have to learn somehow! Ever since prohibition ended and the cops can't do high speed chases the quality of the young racers has fallen off considerably!

Obama proves my point, remember I did mention impeachment. Our National political system is broken, beyond repair or redemption. Why is everyone just letting it happen, it's like the VCA implosion all over on a larger scale! It's why there is a movement out of the country by those that recognize it and can leave!

Forget National Politics and let's put it into terms that I know much more about.

Would you go into a company and say to it's President: Profits are up, sales are up, morale is up, stock value is up, however our term limit rules say that you have to go and we have to let some young guy get his chance to lead, after all he is the future of this company. Do you know how STUPID that would be?

You worry about the future of an organization in it's death throws. You are planting crops that will never grow, get harvested or have anyone around to eat them! How young is young? Most "young" members, when asked to serve give excuses: Work, school, kids etc. You assume that there is a line of distraught envious "volunteers" wanting the jobs! Once again I say it's hard to get anyone to serve, even here in Ohio, where we have enjoyed tremendous growth and success for many years. I don't mean it as a slight or a put down for our members. They are all great and most help whenever they can or are asked to help. We have a core group of 6-8 people that we have always counted on and the members have placed their faith and trust in and relied on us to Get-R-Done! The proper way for younger members to get started is to serve in a Director Position. There they can start to learn the "system" and benefit from the knowledge and experience they are exposed to.

I know I can speak for virtually every officer in Ohio that is or has been in office in the last 15 years and we would welcome anyone that wanted to be an officer to step forward, we are 100% behind you and will help wherever WE can. We have hoped and prayed for many years for a messiah to come forward and that failing, we have just had to **** it up and carry on!

 

[doctorbob]

Gustfront....please read post 132 and BobP's response on 133. My comment was in reference to those two only.

 

[knuk]

Poor analogy. I do not think the comparison of Navy Seals to Viper Club volunteers is appropriate. BobP is suggesting younger members get involved since they will be the future of the club.

Term limits should occur nationally....you cannot argue the long term corruption you see in the House and Senate. If you are making that point, that means Obama could run for multiple terms.

Prime minister can run for multiple terms in Canada. It seems to work just fine.

 

[Sam Goldfarb]

Hi Sam. Term limits for some things do not make sense. For clubs, they do. Why? Because without change, cliques form and internal, exclusive, good old boy, cultures become entrenched. That is what happened in the VCA. That is what really caused all the problems. Nothing prevents the greybeards from being trusted advisors. That is their proper role. It is crucial in a club that the leadership change and be updated so that fresh air can come in every once in a while.

How many times have we seen an entrenched leadership cause problems in a Temple, a Church, a country club, a professional organization, etc. A car club is a car club. People do not ask to lead if the perception is that they will not be supported by the good old boy network.

Best,

Bob

All great points! I assume for my examples that there is a way in the rules and bylaws to oust any entrenched leadership. I for one would not stand for the crap that others overlooked or put up with, by-laws or not. I play by the rules as long as everyone else does, then all bets are off! I guess, because we have had such a peaceful existence here in Ohio and little if any use for the National "benefits" we have been jaded to the real issues. That again proves my point. If things are good leave it alone, if not move along! For some reason some allowed the by-laws to be manipulated at the National level to benefit a chosen few. That is their fault and the fault of any attorney who helped craft it or overlooked it. It's why they need and buy D&O and E&O insurance and maybe that avenue should have been visited! As some of the perceived corruption might still be happening the statute of limitation may have not even started ticking on those actions!

Change is not always good it can be just change! Maybe we are all arguing the same point from a different perspective. We could replace everyone and let them start all over. No cliques, no good old boys, no history, no old people just young fresh faced kids sitting around twiddling with their ipods and tablets , racing their Vipers on the internet with members simultaneously in every region. The amount saved on VOIs, magazines, printing etc would be enormous. Turn the club into an online electronic one, who needs a car or insurance, no trailers, tires, gasoline etc..

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" but, the stupid are giving them a hell of a run for the position!

The old Graucho Marx line comes to mind:

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member. ... Groucho Marx

My personal favorite movie line of all times:

Robert Duval in the movie "The Great Santini" is a fighter pilot, he walks out onto the front porch early in the morning to go jogging, looks up in the sky and says "G-d, why did you put so many assholes on the earth at the same time?"

 

[Sam Goldfarb]

Who said?

Chaos, panic, & disorder, my work here is done.

A. Chris
B. Lee
C. Mary
D. All of the Above