TO MODERATOR

[1TONY1]

There is more whining on here about the bashing than there is actual bashing....AND....what some call bashing, I call observations and opinions. Now somebody pass me a lotion soaked tissue

 

[BobK898]

I rest my case...

Good, because your case is tired.

[/QUOTE]

I’ve only owned a Viper for 2 weeks and already the discussions on this forum are making me embarrassed to be seen it. I’ve only driven it twice. How can a car attract so many loosers? If only I had known.

[/QUOTE]


A not too wise philosopher once told me to re-examine my priorities if I was embarrassed to be seen in a car.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Anyone who has been here regularly, for any length of time, knows my name is not MODERATOR. Sure, I have been called other things, some worse....but most know me as Vipermad. So here is the response you are sure you are owed.

My personal stand on this is much like Andy's (above). I couldn't care less what the Viper (ANY Viper) is compared to...that is what drives the movement forward....so all of it is welcome...the good, the bad, the ugly...and Craig (Just kidding Craig!).

What will not be OK much longer is the low level of communication. If you want to discuss likes, dislikes, BIG dislikes, etc...fine by me. All's fair!! You wanna call names and simply be antagonistic...don't be surprised if I edit your post. Now...I am not writing that to threaten...I am simply stating a fact. Thats the way it will be...but please, feel free to contact anyone in the VCA...Joe, Steve, Wing King, Viper HQ.....and tell them I am wrong and they need to replace me!! Heck...I would LOVE the break!!!

Now...I, personally, wouldn't care if anyone wants to bash the GEN I, II, III, IV, V.....ad nauseum....but THIS FORUM is for discussing the car, its competitors, tips and tricks...all with a little fun thrown in. All meant to further the ownership experience of current owners....and help future owners/enthusiasts.

I am not sure what else to do. There is already a forum for fooling around. Yes, I can very easily make this forum (or any other) accessible to only those I deem worthy (sorry....I've got the God-like dillusions going on again!!! )...but where is the variety in that?

Also...I often wonder why people can't look at certain posts like I do, NOT take them personal, and then move on. I know...easier saud than done...and I am just as guilty of NOT being able to do that at times!!

In short.....open dialog is good. Even joking about things is fun....but the days of being antagonistic simply because one can are over. Simply put...please show a certain amount of respect (and expect the same) in the forums that are supposed to be about the car. Certain forums are NOT "anything goes", and that is just a fact of life....nothing more, nothing less.

I probably missed something, or said something wrong, or did somethng else to piss someone off.....but the bottom line is I am (and always have been) a pretty decent guy, and I have always looked out for the car, club and owners.

Respectfully submitted as your humble servant....

 

[00prowler]

With Vipermads post I guess I can say Gen1 and Gen2 cars are for rednecks and SRTs are for SISSIES

 

[STUGOTS]

Anyone who has been here regularly, for any length of time, knows my name is not MODERATOR. Sure, I have been called other things, some worse....but most know me as Vipermad. So here is the response you are sure you are owed.

My personal stand on this is much like Andy's (above). I couldn't care less what the Viper (ANY Viper) is compared to...that is what drives the movement forward....so all of it is welcome...the good, the bad, the ugly...and Craig (Just kidding Craig!).

What will not be OK much longer is the low level of communication. If you want to discuss likes, dislikes, BIG dislikes, etc...fine by me. All's fair!! You wanna call names and simply be antagonistic...don't be surprised if I edit your post. Now...I am not writing that to threaten...I am simply stating a fact. Thats the way it will be...but please, feel free to contact anyone in the VCA...Joe, Steve, Wing King, Viper HQ.....and tell them I am wrong and they need to replace me!! Heck...I would LOVE the break!!!

Now...I, personally, wouldn't care if anyone wants to bash the GEN I, II, III, IV, V.....ad nauseum....but THIS FORUM is for discussing the car, its competitors, tips and tricks...all with a little fun thrown in. All meant to further the ownership experience of current owners....and help future owners/enthusiasts.

I am not sure what else to do. There is already a forum for fooling around. Yes, I can very easily make this forum (or any other) accessible to only those I deem worthy (sorry....I've got the God-like dillusions going on again!!! )...but where is the variety in that?

Also...I often wonder why people can't look at certain posts like I do, NOT take them personal, and then move on. I know...easier saud than done...and I am just as guilty of NOT being able to do that at times!!

In short.....open dialog is good. Even joking about things is fun....but the days of being antagonistic simply because one can are over. Simply put...please show a certain amount of respect (and expect the same) in the forums that are supposed to be about the car. Certain forums are NOT "anything goes", and that is just a fact of life....nothing more, nothing less.

I probably missed something, or said something wrong, or did somethng else to piss someone off.....but the bottom line is I am (and always have been) a pretty decent guy, and I have always looked out for the car, club and owners.

Respectfully submitted as your humble servant....

you know what Vipermad?????? and I have been wanting to say this to you for quite some time now.
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WHO IN THE BLUE HELL IS WING KING?



all kidding aside I agree with you 100% (ok kissing a$$ session is over)

 

[madman]

Tony, thanks for answer. Let me say following based on my experience as an admin for product support forums of our (software) company:

Every forum is as good as its focus is. With 'product' forum the focus becomes even more important - when you don't own the car you go there to find out about it. If you own the car you go there to share experience and find out more.

This forum should be 'product'(SRT) forum, not a general chat room.

As you said there is already general forum there. The problem is that many contributors do not respect this fact which in turn makes this forum useless for anybody else except of the chatters.

The truth is that right now somebody does very good job for GM. This tactics is called a 'guerilla marketing' and I would not be suprised to see some pr hotshots doing this. Remember that for one contributor there are hundreds of anonymous readers who do not voice but form their opinions.

What needs to be done (I am writing this public to see if this would offend anyone):

- bump all SRT-not-specific threads to a general forum
- delete posts which do not follow the logic of thread and the product focus
- issue warnings and if they would not help put on black list members who would not follow these guidelines. There are not many of them
- renaming general forum from off-topic to something more car based sounds to me like a good idea.

You need to divert the chatters traffic off this forum to a general forum. That's the general idea. General forum is exactly the place to discuss Z06 vs. GTS vs. SRT and cry why the hell new coupe has not 800HP.

 

[Hostile]

Vipermad
Please move this to board and site questions.
Just the facts.

Skeeter

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Tony....Wing King is the, well, King of Wings! Kingman Hitz and Tony Wendling designed the MultiAxis wing (currently on my car now...but if I can get the d@mn rear stoplight surround off...it won't be for much longer!!).

madman....the problem is, and ALWAYS has been, that most peole do not want to have to go to too many forums to talk Vipers. This has been the case for YEARS...so we do try to limit the moves, and keep a bit of an open mind when it comes to content in a given forum.

I think it should work out well...there is a "General Viper Discussion" where people can discuss Vipers in general...past, present, future (is there one???), etc. Please remember that "product support" is not the same as what we try to have here (and elssewhere)....a mish-mash of technical help, socail interaction and a bit of fun.

Skeeter....Me and Biff are gonna kick your butt in May!! LOL!! Back at Outback....right!?!?! I will also make the 8 hour trip up for the run to OCC!!!!! If/when that happens...please remember me??

 

[RavenFan_94]

Thanks for finally saying something. I agree with Madman and I think many lurkers would share our sentiment.

We can discuss here all day. But the mom jokes need to go.

 

[vipah]

Ok, no mom jokes.

Can one of the SRT guys explain why they don't want DC to come out with more performance and HP? Why don't you want to be higher performance than the Z06?

Now lets see how long it takes one of the SRT boys to call me a name!

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

I got your back as well, Steve.

On a serious note...I doubt ANYONE does NOT want DC to come out with more HP amd performance. In fact...I'll have to review my messages, but I don't think I have seen anyone say that. Now, they might have said they like the coupe as it is (nothing wrong with that), and like me....wish (and still hope) that the one thing I think it is missing...is added.

HP

Having said that....all the yelling, screaming, name-calling, antagonisim, etc aimed at any one (or more) person(s) here is simply not going to do anything. Some of us have high hopes that what rolls out the dealer doors will be a bit different than what we have seen. Maybe that is a pipe-dream....but I'm waiting for the you-know-what lady to sing!! (see, I didn't even call her a name!!!).

 

[madman]

Vipah, I agree with you 100% that coupe should have some more power and I already said that the easiest way for DC to do this without R&D $$$$ would be Coupe ACR with factory supported SC.

BUT - the point is that I would like to discuss this in a general forum and not in SRT forum which I think should be a resource (a knowledgebase) to find out about the car.

It's just so difficult to learn about SRT and talk about SRT when you have to go through all the general chat. Search function does not help.

Tony - by aggressively moving non-specific threads you will get 2 flies in one shot situation. The general forum will get life and this will become finally useful resource. Believe me - all important and volume contributors will learn the ethic quite quickly.

 

[SnakeEye]

Can one of the SRT guys explain why they don't want DC to come out with more performance and HP? Why don't you want to be higher performance than the Z06? -vipah

vipah: Most of us, of course, will always want more power. So what's so unusual about that--nothing. More power is never enough. As it stands now, and based on the current production Viper to a car that is nearly eight months away from rolling down the line, here's the numbers.

SRT-10 3380lbs/525tq = 6.44 (winner!)
C6 Z06 3150lbs/475tq = 6.63

Who's the king of power...VIPER. And maybe we'll have more than 525lbs come the '06 model and thus more to celebrate. And, the Viper's 505cube V10 has more mod power potential, not a bad thing.

Just a dose of reality for you.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Thank you for your input madman. Duly noted and filed for review.

However...this is the SRT Forum, so anything (and I don't mean ANYTHING Vipah!!! ) related to the SRT, technical specs, technical assistance, future...is fair game here.

Where else would someone discuss the future of the SRT than with current SRT owners.....all along NOT making them check several different forums for their info.

I can honestly say that after doing this for over 5 years, I have some sort of idea what works and what does not. To approach this as if it was a support forum for users of some hair gel, or a certain cell phone...just won't work. Been there...done that...didn't get no T-shirt!

 

[STUGOTS]

Thank you for your input madman. Duly noted and filed for review.

However...this is the SRT Forum, so anything (and I don't mean ANYTHING Vipah!!! ) related to the SRT, technical specs, technical assistance, future...is fair game here.

Where else would someone discuss the future of the SRT than with current SRT owners.....all along NOT making them check several different forums for their info.

I can honestly say that after doing this for over 5 years, I have some sort of idea what works and what does not. To approach this as if it was a support forum for users of some hair gel, or a certain cell phone...just won't work. Been there...done that...didn't get no T-shirt!

how come you get blinking lights on your avaiter?

 

[GR8_ASP]

My sentiments are with the SRT side. That is the primary purpose for using this forum is enjoyment. When the forum becomes more of a complaint / I hate your car forum I have very little to enjoy. So I do not come as often and post even less. If that is the intent to drive the real SRT owners away then the ******** are doing a great job.

Regarding comments about performance increase. I do not understand why a desire for continuing performance increase has to result in the condemnation of current and previous model year cars. Especially when the comparison car is not even in production and real performance comparisons are mythical.

So you guys can continue your onslaught against the SRT and against all current owners, which will probably lead to a dead forum. Or you can gain some decency and let current owners feel good about their cars and have open discussions about their cars, both good and bad but without the demeaning posts.

I have also noted that most of the negative posts are made by Gen II owners. Seems like there is some form of insecurity there. Otherwise I cannot think of why they feel the need to come to the SRT forum and bash the SRT. If they do not like the SRT then they do not have to buy one. And they certainly do not have to come here and talk about something they do not like. As it is they are no different than the Supra, Mustang and Vette posters of old.

 

[vipah]

Can one of the SRT guys explain why they don't want DC to come out with more performance and HP? Why don't you want to be higher performance than the Z06? -vipah

vipah: Most of us, of course, will always want more power. So what's so unusual about that--nothing. More power is never enough. As it stands now, and based on the current production Viper to a car that is nearly eight months away from rolling down the line, here's the numbers.

SRT-10 3380lbs/525tq = 6.44 (winner!)
C6 Z06 3150lbs/475tq = 6.63

Who's the king of power...VIPER. And maybe we'll have more than 525lbs come the '06 model and thus more to celebrate. And, the Viper's 505cube V10 has more mod power potential, not a bad thing.

Just a dose of reality for you.

Here's the dose of reality:

SRT-10 3380lbs/500hp = 6.76
C6 Z06 3150lbs/500hp = 6.3 (winner!)

So reality is not so great. Especially at $15k premium.

 

[madman]

Tony, did you ever visit www.s2ki.com? Truth, they have only one 'product' to deal with (s2000) however with 2 variants (pre04 and post 04 models which look similar but have different engines and suspension) but they are much better organized.

I don't see the reason why SRT forum should discuss Z06 or be bothered by GTS owners views at ***** design and performance of SRT. Don't you have general forum for this?

Unless you would make General forum the main forum where ALL viper owners and non owners meet you kill SRT forum. All bashers come here because it is the forum most alive and they can have fun with SRT owners who apparently don't like to hear when non-owners bash cars they spent ~$80k.

While the 'anything goes' approach is generally tolerated on a general forum it can't be tolerated on a product specific forum which SRT forum is.

You offered your 'job' - maybe we could find someone who actually owns SRT to do this.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Okay Vipah. Let's make a deal. I go to the Dodge dealer tomorrow and you go to the Chevy dealer. Let's meet up a few days later and show off our new toys. How much power you got now? I mean now, not in some future time period. You have even established a price for GM. Are you their new representative? So please go right ahead and offer that Chevy dealer 65-70k for that current Corvette and lets meet in a few days.

 

[SnakeEye]

Can one of the SRT guys explain why they don't want DC to come out with more performance and HP? Why don't you want to be higher performance than the Z06? -vipah

vipah: Most of us, of course, will always want more power. So what's so unusual about that--nothing. More power is never enough. As it stands now, and based on the current production Viper to a car that is nearly eight months away from rolling down the line, here's the numbers.

SRT-10 3380lbs/525tq = 6.44 (winner!)
C6 Z06 3150lbs/475tq = 6.63

Who's the king of power...VIPER. And maybe we'll have more than 525lbs come the '06 model and thus more to celebrate. And, the Viper's 505cube V10 has more mod power potential, not a bad thing.

Just a dose of reality for you.

Here's the dose of reality:

SRT-10 3380lbs/500hp = 6.76
C6 Z06 3150lbs/500hp = 6.3 (winner!)

So reality is not so great. Especially at $15k premium. -vipah

Oh, so now you say the Viper SRT-10's superior torque/lbs ratio doesn't work for you. Okay, in case you didn't know, it's HP under the curve that really matters and based on preproduction Z06 engine dyno data floating around the Viper seems to equal if not slightly edge things out there too. And, of course, with a 505cube V10 it does have more mod potential should the factory stuff just not be enough. Sorry if that bothers you. Now...do you dare serve up any more propaganda err BS? You could always choose to go run along and play elsewhere, it's doubtful many here would mind.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

I don't think we are communicating well.

First...I don't care how other car sites are run, sorry.

Next....This is the Viper CLub of America website....I have already made a statement that the fluff would be weeded out, but to eliminate all talk of ANY competition would be wrong (and frankly, won't happen!). Then to go on and say you don't want the GTS and RT/10 guys/gals in here???? Again....I already said the bashing would stop in this forum. EVERYONE is free to discuss the SRT-10 Viper here. Also...I stated above that there is no "anything goes" here...and that the more light-hearted and spirited discussions would be moved.

Fact is...it is what it is. Not much will change except as I have already stated above. If you get me enough SRT-10 owners who want a super secret and private frum where only you can post, and only SRT/10 owners can post...bring it. Personally I think that is the epitome of elitism, especially after what I have stated we would try to do to make this more of an informative area for the SRT.

The job is all yours...but with all of 100 posts...I think you might not have a good idea of the differences between a site where 1000s and 1000s of pimple popping teenagers (I can say that...I have one!!) own an S2000...and a Viper website.

This forum is good the way it is...with open discussion about ALL SRT's, what yo do with them, how to fix them, the best exhaust......and even the competition. What needs to go away, to make it a better environment for the SRT is the name calling and trash. There is General Viper Discussio for the banter back and forth.

 

[vipah]

[Here's the dose of reality:

SRT-10 3380lbs/500hp = 6.76
C6 Z06 3150lbs/500hp = 6.3 (winner!)

So reality is not so great. Especially at $15k premium. -vipah

Oh, so now you say the Viper SRT-10's superior torque/lbs ratio doesn't work for you. Okay, in case you didn't know, it's HP under the curve that really matters and based on preproduction Z06 engine dyno data floating around the Viper seems to equal if not slightly edge things out there too. And, of course, with a 505cube V10 it does have more mod potential should the factory stuff just not be enough. Sorry if that bothers you. Now...do you dare serve up any more propaganda err BS? You could always choose to go run along and play elsewhere, it's doubtful many here would mind.

[/QUOTE]

Since when is equal good enough for Viper? Talk about propoganda and BS. You are just in denial my little friend. Now maybe you should go play elsewhere since most real Viper owners want better, not equal.

You sound like all the mustang guys now that talk how their modded car can beat a stock Viper. Well I guess in your mind a modded Viper can beat a stock Z06 and that is just **** bang!

LMAO

 

[1TONY1]

The job is all yours...but with all of 100 posts...I think you might not have a good idea of the differences between a site where 1000s and 1000s of pimple popping teenagers (I can say that...I have one!!) own an S2000...and a Viper website.

Tony, madman may "only" have 100 posts BUT he does have "OVER" ONE months experience here. Please do what he says before you are fired !!!


GIVE ME A FRIGGIN BREAK !!!!

 

[1TONY1]

You offered your 'job' - maybe we could find someone who actually owns SRT to do this.

Pick me, pick me, pick me !!!! I know who will get the magic wand first

 

[GR8_ASP]

I don't know why I am continuing this line, but as a long(er) time Viper owner it appears something needs to be said.

When I purchased my RT/10 back in May 1995 the Viper was in a dead heat versus the Corvette for performance. No total ********** as you seem to indicate. In fact the Corvette ZR-1 advertised more horsepower (oh my God!). I ran one on a track back then it was a dead heat. The Viper was decidedly less luxurious, wearing a toupee and plastic side windows, but had an alluring look about it. It was clearly a back to basics, fun to drive performance car. Not the king of the hill so often stated today. It also was less expensive than the top Corvette. Neither the ZR-1 nor the Viper had a significant amount of go-fast goodies available in the aftermarket so stock or near stock was the norm.

So I guess I am in denial since I do not know much about Viper history. It was never about having the most horsepower. It was about having the most fun to drive, challenging performance car that was affordable and ****. The order of that is based on the individual.

When the GTS came out many RT/10 owners (and Bob Lutz) were concerned that it was becoming too civilized. It had lost its back to basics approach with A/C (actually first offered in 1993), power windows and such. That trend continued throughout it current history with each change reducing the back to basics aspect and increasing ease of driving and luxury (hard to even say that word around a Viper but compared to a 1992 RT/10 the later Gen II and Gen III's are much more refined and luxurious).

Now we enter the SRT generation. In 2003 the SRT was in the lead for performance with the first affordable 500 hp sports car available. And the addition of the "requested" convertible top lost some more of its back to basics concept. It also seemingly lost some of the "****" or timeliness styling. Some of that may have been inherent in the choice to do a convertible. But that is what the owners were asking for at the time. I sat in the VOI reviews where time after time the requests were for a true convertible, more power and better brakes. Well Dodge delivered on those requests (remember when the 500/500/500 was announced at VOI - there were no voices in the crowd saying "that is not enough." We all clearly thought it would be enough for the foreseeable future). They may not have achieved other attributes that some wanted (looks), but at the time I believe owners assumed continuation of the Viper appearance. The problem is it is difficult to follow a legend. No matter how good looking the SRT was to become for some it would never be able to live up to the expectations of Viper owners and afficianados.

And so here we are. The SRT is only 3 model years of age and the negative press has shifted from appearance based (oh how well I remember the Gen II owner bashing of the appearance 2 years ago), to performance based. The fear is that Corvette (oh my) may actually equal (or heaven forbid) outperform a Viper. Well it did earlier in the Vipers history and life went on. As it will this time as well. The evolution of the Viper and the Z06 will probably go back and forth in the foreseeable future with each in the so-called lead at times.

But so what. Does the future product diminish that which we already have? Did the Gen II launch make Gen I's regrettable? Did ABS Gen II's make pre-ABS cars laughable? Did the initial SRT detract from Gen II or Gen I owner's delight with their cars performance? Of course not. Evolution and performance growth is expected. So let's grow up and accept the inevitable. Each car should be compared with the cars in its own time, with acceprtance that it may not bridge across all future generations with the same level of superiority. The SRT from 2003 through 2005 clearly had that superiority. It may regain it again in a year or 2. If so what is the big deal? I will still enjoy my car as much as ever. It will not slow down because a newer car has higher (potentially) performance.

So give it a break and let's enjoy these cars for what they are. Incredibly fun to drive performance machines that continue to catch the public's eye wherever they go.

 

[SnakeEye]

[Here's the dose of reality:

SRT-10 3380lbs/500hp = 6.76
C6 Z06 3150lbs/500hp = 6.3 (winner!)

So reality is not so great. Especially at $15k premium. -vipah

Oh, so now you say the Viper SRT-10's superior torque/lbs ratio doesn't work for you. Okay, in case you didn't know, it's HP under the curve that really matters and based on preproduction Z06 engine dyno data floating around the Viper seems to equal if not slightly edge things out there too. And, of course, with a 505cube V10 it does have more mod potential should the factory stuff just not be enough. Sorry if that bothers you. Now...do you dare serve up any more propaganda err BS? You could always choose to go run along and play elsewhere, it's doubtful many here would mind.

Since when is equal good enough for Viper? Talk about propoganda and BS. You are just in denial my little friend. Now maybe you should go play elsewhere since most real Viper owners want better, not equal.

You sound like all the mustang guys now that talk how their modded car can beat a stock Viper. Well I guess in your mind a modded Viper can beat a stock Z06 and that is just **** bang! LMAO -vipah

[/QUOTE]

Let's just say that you aren't making any sense...
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...talking lots of shyt actin' crazy. Look at you.

You must be registered for see images

You've stopped taking your meds again haven't you.

 

[madman]

The job is all yours...but with all of 100 posts...I think you might not have a good idea of the differences between a site where 1000s and 1000s of pimple popping teenagers (I can say that...I have one!!) own an S2000...and a Viper website.

No thank you. I do have a job managing forum with ~20,000 users among others. And besides as said I don't have the experience . Try Craig, he has like 4,000 posts? He must be the one.

This forum is good the way it is...with open discussion about ALL SRT's, what yo do with them, how to fix them, the best exhaust......and even the competition. What needs to go away, to make it a better environment for the SRT is the name calling and trash. There is General Viper Discussio for the banter back and forth.

No this forum is not good the way it is. Make the general forum the main forum.

 

[Hirohawa]

The ZR1 was a failure, dealers where knocking off 15K from sticker by 1992. HP ratings aside the ZR1 was more expensive and looked exactly like a C4, and the C4 is not going down in any design hall of fame. The Viper was a knockout blow to GM and their high priced ZR1 so much so that they had to cancel it before the C4 cycle was even finished. There was a fight and no matter what anyone says The Viper won.

In my Personal experience this past summer I ran a 91 or newer ZR1 with Borla exhaust off the Line and beat him in my 93 RT/10 with smooth tubes and filters.

The only time I lined up against a GTS in my Z06 I lost.

Also the new Z06 is 3130 lbs not 3150.

If you look at the Corvette Boards right now there is very little of this dissention amongst the members. And the reason is simple - GM delivered on the new Z06.

 

[Viperized]

My experience with this forum compared to others I have been on is mixed. When I asked for some advice regarding my first experience with my SRT I got some good responses. Then later I got bashed and bad mouthed by an obnoxious a$$hole. I had never had this happen before. I simply said that when the tires and road were cold it caused me to have an accident with the car. I said that this was the nature of the car. I was pounced on like I had insulted the guy's wife or something. Even though it was basically one or two guys it still left a bad taste in my mouth. I have seen others bashed for asking for opinions of the Viper vs. the Corvette. What is so bad about that, how is a person to know about the car before buying it? I wish I had seen this forum prior to picking up my car, maybe I would have avoided my mishap with the knowledge I would have received. I don't think we should keep non Viper owners off the forum unless their sole purpose is to bad mouth and rile up Viper owners. I regularly am on Ferrarichat.com and have not seen such venomous replies (pardon the pun). I had hoped, and continue to hope that I can enjoy this forum without being made to feel like crap again.

 

[Hirohawa]

Sorry for your experience and your car.

I love the Viper and I think we are just having growing pains over the SRT 10. This has happened many times in teh Corvette world but it is a first for teh Viper community.