TT Viper anyone?

[John Moore]

Building a twin turbo system for the Viper that doesn't require drilling, cutting, or welding is absolutely possible. I've been driving one lately. The guys building and designing it haven't just "played with turbo cars for years." They're actually professional custom turbo designer/builders for sponsored racecars and the turbodiesel truck industry. I can assure you they are not the least bit interested in damaging any of their motors much less a Viper motor. No one knowledgeable has said anything about this being easy. In fact, there are many more issues being addressed than the few that have been brought up. For example an item that is taking a bit of their development time is an air/fuel/timing/boost control box that will be lap top programmable. Who's interested in this!? (...and again you won't have to cut a single wire!). Also, a lot of attention is going into building the first stage so that you can add to it to build the successive stages without having to junk or replace so many things as you move up. This project is definitely open to any helpful suggestions or experiences anyone may have. In fact if there are any items of interest that you would like to know more about let us know.

 

[Miles B]

John,

will your system be controllable from inside the car? One thing I like about driving the turbo imports I have driven, is that you can adjust the boost level on the Apexi/Blitz/whatever boost controller.. cruise around the streets on near stock, and turn it up when you want to go fast. This is one thing I don't like so much about the supercharger packages.. it's pretty much on or off.

Regarding the lost actuator line blowing the engine through overboost... that's why you have a boost cut.. if the boost hits, say 7psi, fuel cut, or retard timing.. will the new kits have this??? Or use a blow off valve with safety blow off at 7psi?

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Miles B on 03-09-2002 at 02:37 PM</font>

 

[John Moore]

Mayasa and Miles B,
Yes and no. We're using Garret components but in a custom configuration by Innovative. Oh, and as far as reliability I've driven and owned four other turbo cars two of which have toped 120,000 miles. A third needed it's turbo replaced at 70,000 because it was not water cooled. The forth was a lemon so I really am sensitive to the issue of reliability. If it ain't reliable we're not gonna do it.
On controlling the boost from the inside there are many after market controllers that are easily added and I'm sure there will be some options available in the successive systems. The neat thing about turbos however is that they don't really boost until you mash the go pedal. While cruising or putting around it drives just like a lively stock Viper and then when you get into it the gates open and the extra kick in the pants is there. Any one that can drive a Viper can drive a TT Viper just be dam* careful with the top of WOT.

 

[John Moore]

Good news! Who wants to tweak their A/F ratios on a lap top, (intake pressure vs. fuel vs. RPMs?) It works and we're going to the dyno Friday to optimize the ratios under various loads. This device is not limited to just turbos but can be used for other tuning purposes like superchargers or any high power output or high fuel demand applications.) We're getting an easy 5psi with reliable oiling (as reliable as the factory system because that's the source), cooling, and boost management (steel not plastic boost lines). The heat management is ceramic coating and header wrap over the flex exhaust and remote solid mounts to protect the stock headers from heat, vibration and weight. Steel lines with steel fittings to manage oil, water and fuel. The exhaust side is in stainless while the intake side is in aluminum and stainless. All clamps are stainless and all hose connections are in high temp silicon. All electrical is soldered, shrink wrapped and color coded using factory weather pack plugs and connectors. I'm only scratching the surface of many of the goodies so not to get too long winded I'll quit and get back with our results on Friday.

See ya.

 

[not stock]

John, I think several members are looking for a reply on their missing money and parts. Sorry but it's a slap in their face by you to post here and ignore posts directed to you.

 

[Anthony - 98 GTS]

John Moore,

Thanks for the update. Keep us posted on your results. I am very interested in the A/F controller. I am currently building a high HP heads/cam/nos motor.

 

[SlowCreamPuff]

John Moore,

Thank you for the update. The system sounds awesome. I have a request if it's not too late in the development process.

Open track use for 30+ minutes at a time.

Thanks.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Moore:
Good news! Who wants to tweak their A/F ratios on a lap top, (intake pressure vs. fuel vs. RPMs?) It works and we're going to the dyno Friday to optimize the ratios under various loads.I'm only scratching the surface of many of the goodies so not to get too long winded I'll quit and get back with our results on Friday.

See ya.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Come on guys! You're Killing me, Any good news yet? Paolo

 

[John Moore]

Man has this been a long month! Sorry about being so quiet for so long but some issues kept cropping up. It seemed too much like blowing smoke (literally and figuratively) to keep going on and not have a true daily driver. Well so far so freaking good! The car starts first time every time just like stock, idles smooth as silk, no smoke, no rattles, no stumbles, no hesitation. WOT is scary fast. Boost (5psi) comes on at 2500rpms and holds 'till you run out of road or balls. Yes that's 5psi from 2500 all the way to 6200. The only dyno shop we could find with integrated wideband O2 sensors and software here in San Antonio wouldn't let us test and tune on their equipment. They said they weren't "comfortable" with such a monster. "They just do BMW's and import mods. Their biggest projects are only turbo M5s and a few Supras". So, the game plan is to do some sensor work on the fly and then take it to the track for some mile-an-hours and a regular dyno shop for a few pulls. Thanks Rob, for sticking in there and sorting out every little painstaking detail. Paolo, come on down and let's go for a ride.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Moore:
Man has this been a long month! Sorry about being so quiet for so long but some issues kept cropping up. It seemed too much like blowing smoke (literally and figuratively) to keep going on and not have a true daily driver. Well so far so freaking good! The car starts first time every time just like stock, idles smooth as silk, no smoke, no rattles, no stumbles, no hesitation. WOT is scary fast. Boost (5psi) comes on at 2500rpms and holds 'till you run out of road or balls. Yes that's 5psi from 2500 all the way to 6200. The only dyno shop we could find with integrated wideband O2 sensors and software here in San Antonio wouldn't let us test and tune on their equipment. They said they weren't "comfortable" with such a monster. "They just do BMW's and import mods. Their biggest projects are only turbo M5s and a few Supras". So, the game plan is to do some sensor work on the fly and then take it to the track for some mile-an-hours and a regular dyno shop for a few pulls. Thanks Rob, for sticking in there and sorting out every little painstaking detail. Paolo, come on down and let's go for a ride.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John, I will be coming down for a ride as soon as you guys have everything tuned the way you want it and as soon as you have some dyno numbers. You have my number, give me a call! Paolo

 

[Paolo Castellano]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Moore:
Man has this been a long month! Sorry about being so quiet for so long but some issues kept cropping up. It seemed too much like blowing smoke (literally and figuratively) to keep going on and not have a true daily driver. Well so far so freaking good! The car starts first time every time just like stock, idles smooth as silk, no smoke, no rattles, no stumbles, no hesitation. WOT is scary fast. Boost (5psi) comes on at 2500rpms and holds 'till you run out of road or balls. Yes that's 5psi from 2500 all the way to 6200. The only dyno shop we could find with integrated wideband O2 sensors and software here in San Antonio wouldn't let us test and tune on their equipment. They said they weren't "comfortable" with such a monster. "They just do BMW's and import mods. Their biggest projects are only turbo M5s and a few Supras". So, the game plan is to do some sensor work on the fly and then take it to the track for some mile-an-hours and a regular dyno shop for a few pulls. Thanks Rob, for sticking in there and sorting out every little painstaking detail. Paolo, come on down and let's go for a ride.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John, I will be coming down for a ride as soon as you guys have everything tuned the way you want it and as soon as you have some dyno numbers. You have my number, give me a call! Paolo

 

[VENM8R]

What happened with this? Was the project dropped?

 

[GONABITE]

Yeah really it sounded as if everything was going well and no more updates. Whats going on? Enquiring minds would like to know.

 

[John Moore]

Hi, everything is going great. I'm having a blast with my TT daily driver. I've got over 600 miles on the system watching things closely while we eek the boost up little by little. Simple daily driving is just like a "regular" Viper on 'roids. If I get in it to get a little tuning in we've seen 12 psi and feel this is definitely beyond safe limits for the motor without intercooling, more fuel pressure and more octane. Ever feel 488 cubes gobble up more fuel than two booster pumps at 100psi can deliver? The car has been on a dyno in its early moments and without tuning, 145 deg. inlet temps (before the compressor!)and an estimated 8psi boost we got 506rwhp and 537lb/ft at the wheels on a motor that started with 399rwhp and 457lb/ft on a 70deg day. There are no other mods on this engine. Thoughts on what it will do on a modified engine are limited only by imagination. Some more serious miles are planned for the car at a road course and eventual intercooling. If you're really interested in a kit you need to let Rob know. Not one scratch was inflicted on the snake and it can be removed and installed in one weekend with no special tools. (I know I've done it over and over during the development!)I have heard an estimated potential of the stock motor carefully boosted and properly fueled should be near 1000hp. Of course block reinforcement, head work, balancing, and lubrication will send the numbers out the roof like the SVSi TT. Anyway, let Axis Industries know what you think. I have and it's all good.

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Moore:
and an estimated 8psi boost we got 506rwhp and 537lb/ft at the wheels on a motor that started with 399rwhp and 457lb/ft on a 70deg day. There are no other mods on this engine
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Glad everything is going ok, but at 8 lbs of boost, shouldn't you be around 700 to 800 RWHP with a twin turbo setup w/ a stock bottom end?


Gerald

 

[John Moore]

"Glad everything is going ok, but at 8 lbs of boost, shouldn't you be around 700 to 800 RWHP with a twin turbo setup w/ a stock bottom end?
Gerald"

Nope. If you do the math on a completely stock motor (not just "a stock bottom end") you'll see the numbers are about right especially considering the 145 degree inlet temps we experienced in the dyno garage the day we ran. Also note we started with a very average or even low 399rwhp! Again, with other simple mods, a higher starting HP and an intercooler you could easily pass 700 to 800. Right now we're primarily interested in the specific gains of the turbos alone and nothing else. Like I said earlier the only limitations up to 1000hp when using turbos are going to be your other engine "enhancements".

 

[GTS Dean]

Update:

John and I took his TT up to the IndyCar race in Ft. Worth this past weekend. I rode shotgun most of the way and kept track of vital stats with the DRBIII. Pretty uneventful trip, lots of traffic, including the requisite amount of stop 'n' go getting to and from the track and a few squirts up to triple digits. Our trip was about 700 miles total and we averaged right at 19.0 mpg. The package now has around 1400 miles on it. They lost one turbo seal early on, but we've come up with an engineering fix which made that a non-issue now. No Smoke!!!

One big improvement over natually aspirated is the exhaust note - before the turbos went in, the cabin resonance was literally painful. Now, it's quite pleasant. When the impellers spool up, the sound is fabulous and the road becomes a quickening blur. Somebody around here has a moniker of "Impetuous Black Viper" - I think you're about to lose your handle, dude.

The plumbing is a true work of art - especially considering the owner's mandate that NOTHING be cut or drilled anywhere on the car! I got to drive it just about 15 miles, but that was nearest to the track and only got to spool it up 2 or 3 times. Very progressive, but the R's build quick and it's time to yank the next gear lever. Brake upgrades will likely be in order before long...

 

[GTS Dean]

Just a few snapshots to stir your soul...

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[GONABITE]

When are you taking the car to the drag strip

 

[davem]

Hello,
Nice setup so far, sounds pretty promising.

How are you detecting knock during tuning?

thanks,
Dave.

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

I am taking the leap with the Tynmann - I have been considering it for a while and am in final detail negotiations with him. For those of you who know me, there will be nothing but stories and details of performance once I get my car back from him. I opted for the Stage ][ intercooled kit and will keep everyone updated on what I feel about it.

I am removing a 300HP NX wet system with computer before the install Rob does on my car and will be selling it on ebay. I am also removing and selling a Sean Roe VEC1 (which is the first fuel/ignition curve mod that ever worked for me)You can check for the auctions by going to ebay.com -&gt; search -&gt; by seller -&gt; IMACDC (that is my eBay id)

There you go! Updates will follow!

Jason Tarnutzer
98 GTS / San Diego, CA
[email protected]
eBay id - IMACDC

 

[John Moore]

Jason,
Congrats on the decision. You will be more than pleased! I'm really lucky because I'm right down the street and get to watch another TT hatch!

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by [email protected]:
I am taking the leap with the Tynmann - I have been considering it for a while and am in final detail negotiations with him. For those of you who know me, there will be nothing but stories and details of performance once I get my car back from him. I opted for the Stage ][ intercooled kit and will keep everyone updated on what I feel about it.

I am removing a 300HP NX wet system with computer before the install Rob does on my car and will be selling it on ebay. I am also removing and selling a Sean Roe VEC1 (which is the first fuel/ignition curve mod that ever worked for me)You can check for the auctions by going to ebay.com -&gt; search -&gt; by seller -&gt; IMACDC (that is my eBay id)

There you go! Updates will follow!

Jason Tarnutzer
98 GTS / San Diego, CA
[email protected]
eBay id - IMACDC

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm curious, why take the Nitrous off and switch to TT? No flame intended, just an honest question. Again, I'm just curious why SO many people yank off nitrous after a few months and either go with N/A, S/C, or TT..


Gerald

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Two major reasons and a third based on preference. First off, I have owned every bottle opener there is and none of them work reliably - therefore I must open the rear hatch, presurize the system each time I think I may feel like standing on her. If I do not turn it off at night it leaks. I Don't think I have heard of a system that doesn't over time. Secondly, the cost of refills is more than the payments will be on my credit card for the TT's. I use a 15lb bottle every 5 to 6 days and at a 'deal' it costs me $55 for a fill. (not to mention quite a pain involved in removing the bottle, filling, putting back in the car, etc.) Lastly, Preference, I have owned quite a few turbo vehicles and have always loved the rush a turbo can give you - the power comes on gently at first then WHOOSH goes the smile!. I.E. I founded MKIV.COM back in the day and could not stop tweaking on those Supras - loved 'em. I have had a couple of Buick's (GN & T-Type) and my sandrail is also 'wind powered' - I am just a boost phreak I guess.

And of course:
A big realization for me is that now someone that has experience and apparent talent has made a kit that I can almost afford! I can't sit still thinking about this thing!

Hope that helps esplane my view...........


Jason
98 GTS

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by [email protected]:
Two major reasons and a third based on preference. First off, I have owned every bottle opener there is and none of them work reliably - therefore I must open the rear hatch, presurize the system each time I think I may feel like standing on her. If I do not turn it off at night it leaks. I Don't think I have heard of a system that doesn't over time. Secondly, the cost of refills is more than the payments will be on my credit card for the TT's. I use a 15lb bottle every 5 to 6 days and at a 'deal' it costs me $55 for a fill. (not to mention quite a pain involved in removing the bottle, filling, putting back in the car, etc.) Lastly, Preference, I have owned quite a few turbo vehicles and have always loved the rush a turbo can give you - the power comes on gently at first then WHOOSH goes the smile!. I.E. I founded MKIV.COM back in the day and could not stop tweaking on those Supras - loved 'em. I have had a couple of Buick's (GN & T-Type) and my sandrail is also 'wind powered' - I am just a boost phreak I guess.

And of course:
A big realization for me is that now someone that has experience and apparent talent has made a kit that I can almost afford! I can't sit still thinking about this thing!

Hope that helps esplane my view...........


Jason
98 GTS

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting.. before getting my 2nd DLM supercharged viper I thought of the cheaper route of nitrous... But the cons outweighed the pros by far.

Gerald

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

I have nearly gone SC on my Viper too, but just recently had a bad experience with a 4.6 and a procharger. (Don't get me wrong, I think procharger makes a great unit and I have owner my fair share of their product) That combined with moving out of Vegas down to the coast made my mind up for TT's. There is no way I would run TT's in Vegas, or an SC for that matter. My viper is a TRUE daily driver and it gets warm in Vegas traffic without and spinning poweradder

On your DLM are you intercooled? If so what have you found is a good limit for boost levels on super unleaded? cya

 

[Gerald]

My car is also a daily driver, it's the only car I own now.
DLM has my boost up to 10-11 lbs. I'm running a small fuel cell in the back with race gas (about 3-4 gallon cell) mounted nicely in the corner of the rear hatch. I fill it up about once a month or so. We are thinking it doesn't even need the fuel cell as he's putting out the same numbers on other vipers with normal pump gas. We've now got the inlet temperature going INTO the supercharger at about 84 degrees or less or so, then it hit's the intercooler mounted in the facia vertically. There's couple tricks to getting the all important colder air..It's normally over 100 degrees off the pavement here in Tampa.
Last night it was very cool after a hard rain. The roads dried up and I went out to the movies. WOW. When it's cool outside, I swear, it adds 100hp or so!!!! No JOKE..Feels like a shot of NO2.

Have a blast with your forced induction! You'll LOVE it!

Gerald

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

You are so right, I have gotten used to my extra 100hp or so I have here now at sea level as compared to Vegas. If I go out in the early AM at just the right time, I have actually had to double check the NX kit was not armed. Amazing. When you are using all the 'best case' scenarios with your setup what have you been able to do as far as RWHP? My best on the 248 in vegas was 680 - that was engine cold, winter morning, 1200psi bottle pressure and the 'FRED' set to kill. I literally lose 100HP off that when the car (heads I guess) warm up and ambient is up a bit....

 

[GTS Dean]

What is amazing is that it hit 550 HP (at what, 4600 rpm?) and stayed right there til John let off the gas. With no intercooler on the Stage 1 package, I guess the inlet temp, boost & fuel pressure controller settings are the only constraints to more hp.

This is a true daily driver with about 2000 miles already on the package.

Nice job Rob!

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

RIGHT ON! Great numbers! I have dynoed a number of stock GTS cars and they have all seem to been anywhere from 395-410 RWHP stock so you are looking at solid 150HP gains on a safe setup. Very impressive. Can't wait for the Stage 2 #'s