Tunning a GenIV

[M_viper]

I checked out pro Efi systems and turns out that they do have a solution for the Gen 4.

http://www.proefi.com/Dodge_Viper.html

Has anyone tried this solution on their Gen 4?

I talked to them and they told me that they do have an application for it plus harness.

http://www.proefi.com/Application_Harness.html


What do you guys think?

 

[TrackAire]

I see Gen 2 & 3 listed but for Gen 4 I see "Gen 4 Variable Cam plug and play kits to be announced" per their website link you provided.

Whatever you do, do not send them any money until you can confirm with one of the reputable tuners on this forum that their system will work with a Gen 4. Be careful, you don't want to be the experiment for them if they don't have their act together.

Hope they do have a solution, but I would not bet on it.

Good luck and be careful,

George

 

[M_viper]

well they did mention that a few dealers have ran the GenIV vipers.


They also informed me that I can't run stock coils directly from the ECU. They included a highoutput coil upgrade that works great for boosted/nitrous applications (what they informed me).I can can just run external igniters and stock coils.

 

[redtanrt10]

Here's a note they sent me on 1/19/12;

We are tracking down the connectors, hoping to have something in the near future.
Jason.

 

[treesnake]

I have been following the PRO-EFI system and talking to some "people"...


Long story,...
Short version is," ITS CLOSE".....




REDTANRT10... I'll keep you updated.....

 

[TrackAire]

I'm not familiar with Pro EFI, for the Gen 4 will it be similar to a Motec in that it will pretty much take a pro to wire in and work with the existing systems? Will it come with a similar Motec price point?

George

 

[treesnake]

I'm not familiar with Pro EFI, for the Gen 4 will it be similar to a Motec in that it will pretty much take a pro to wire in and work with the existing systems? Will it come with a similar Motec price point?

George

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/650435-Any-one-using-a-Pro-EFI-cpu?highlight=pro+efi+tuning

 

[Viper Specialty]

I'm not familiar with Pro EFI, for the Gen 4 will it be similar to a Motec in that it will pretty much take a pro to wire in and work with the existing systems? Will it come with a similar Motec price point?

George

This is a very complicated topic that everyone is trying to simplify. In short... it can't be simplified. The correct answer is to call a capable tuner and talk about your goals and options.

However, in the name of futility, here is a basic run-down;

1. The only two systems that at this moment have been proven to be capable of controlling a Gen-4 and could be installed today is Pectel & Motec. These systems are quite expensive, require a professional installation, and are world-class systems with options and capabilities available that are worlds beyond what most people would use. They are quite literally the last computer system that you would ever have to buy, and one system can handle multiple cars. This is a very commonly overlooked item: You can build a harness and mount for each car, but you really only need one computer for all of your cars. With a "model specific" PCM that has an OEM-like plug set, this is much more difficult to do. While you make your life easier in one way, and limit yourself in others by default.

2. A Plug and Play system for a Gen-4 like the old Gen-2 AEM setup is not feasible. It is a much more complicated system that at a minimum would require a complete adapter harness, or else your entire dashboard would not function, and a number of engine accessory features would not work. The PCM does a lot more than just run your engine; it handles A/C functions, transmission related functions, and sends all gauge information via a bus connection to the rest of the car. While you could make a "plug and play" computer for a race car that just ran the engine easily enough, I can't think of any company who is going to make a computer that is fully compatible with the bus system in the car, and work with all of the other modules. This is why top-level systems at this complexity level are professionally installed and use BOTH computer systems to accomplish the desired outcome. Pro-EFI would more than likely not be willing to undertake this level of development for the system, leaving us with a partially completed system at best, which still needs a tuner to sort it out and implement the OE computer functionality. It is nice to think that you can just remove the OE computer and drop in a new one... but it isn't that simple unless you have an OBD-2 and CAN-Bus compatible drop-in PCM that has all of the Chrysler programming language available. In short... it likely isn't going to happen that way.

3. Pro-EFI is a much more cost-conscious option than Pectel & Motec, but it will also have limitations and compatibility restraints as a result. Not that this will matter much for the street guys, but those looking to use the feature lists of Pectel & Motec will notice.

4. In my opinion, a properly built MIL-Spec harness that incorporates the OE PCM as well as the additional aftermarket PCM, is far more reliable in the long run, with more versatility, and far more sightly than an adapter harness and a plug and play arrangement like would be needed. With the latter, you have double the number of connections, and far more independent cable runs as additional inputs and outputs are added that cannot branch off of the primary run, as well as the lack of options regarding shielding certain inputs and outputs against noise, etc.

 

[TrackAire]

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/650435-Any-one-using-a-Pro-EFI-cpu?highlight=pro+efi+tuning

Thanks for the link Treesnake, I remember reading that thread. I guess until somebody tries a Gen 4 we won't know whats exactly involved. I don't think we can compare the Gen 2, 3's, Supras, etc with the Venom controller we have in our cars when it comes to making it work or better yet, how much knowledge and work will be involved to get a Gen 4 "tuneable" in a reasonable price range. I think the really big market will be the NA guys and not the forced induction market when it comes to the Gen 4 mods and different tunes.

George

 

[M_viper]

Here's a note they sent me on 1/19/12;

We are tracking down the connectors, hoping to have something in the near future.
Jason.

was this the last you from them?



Treesnake how close are they??

 

[treesnake]

This is a very complicated topic that everyone is trying to simplify. In short... it can't be simplified. The correct answer is to call a capable tuner and talk about your goals and options.

However, in the name of futility, here is a basic run-down;

1. The only two systems that at this moment have been proven to be capable of controlling a Gen-4 and could be installed today is Pectel & Motec. These systems are quite expensive, require a professional installation, and are world-class systems with options and capabilities available that are worlds beyond what most people would use. They are quite literally the last computer system that you would ever have to buy, and one system can handle multiple cars. This is a very commonly overlooked item: You can build a harness and mount for each car, but you really only need one computer for all of your cars. With a "model specific" PCM that has an OEM-like plug set, this is much more difficult to do. While you make your life easier in one way, and limit yourself in others by default.

2. A Plug and Play system for a Gen-4 like the old Gen-2 AEM setup is not feasible. It is a much more complicated system that at a minimum would require a complete adapter harness, or else your entire dashboard would not function, and a number of engine accessory features would not work. The PCM does a lot more than just run your engine; it handles A/C functions, transmission related functions, and sends all gauge information via a bus connection to the rest of the car. While you could make a "plug and play" computer for a race car that just ran the engine easily enough, I can't think of any company who is going to make a computer that is fully compatible with the bus system in the car, and work with all of the other modules. This is why top-level systems at this complexity level are professionally installed and use BOTH computer systems to accomplish the desired outcome. Pro-EFI would more than likely not be willing to undertake this level of development for the system, leaving us with a partially completed system at best, which still needs a tuner to sort it out and implement the OE computer functionality. It is nice to think that you can just remove the OE computer and drop in a new one... but it isn't that simple unless you have an OBD-2 and CAN-Bus compatible drop-in PCM that has all of the Chrysler programming language available. In short... it likely isn't going to happen that way.

3. Pro-EFI is a much more cost-conscious option than Pectel & Motec, but it will also have limitations and compatibility restraints as a result. Not that this will matter much for the street guys, but those looking to use the feature lists of Pectel & Motec will notice.

4. In my opinion, a properly built MIL-Spec harness that incorporates the OE PCM as well as the additional aftermarket PCM, is far more reliable in the long run, with more versatility, and far more sightly than an adapter harness and a plug and play arrangement like would be needed. With the latter, you have double the number of connections, and far more independent cable runs as additional inputs and outputs are added that cannot branch off of the primary run, as well as the lack of options regarding shielding certain inputs and outputs against noise, etc.

Not sure why you are so predisposed that the PRO-EFI system is inferior. You admittedly don't know anything about the sysytem. Myself and several others are very intersted in the possibility of a NON-vipertaxed tuning system. If you look at the results that they have achieved with other cars, and IF they can do the same with our system as it sounds like they might, a lot of things will change...

MAIN DIFFERENCE.... Motec/ Pectel.... $10-12K+ ProEFI....$3-4K....

And as far as the tuning aspect, you don't need a tuner to "sort out" a Pectel/Motec system?
I've looked into Pectel and Motec systems for my other cars. I've talked to John Reed and Justin Nenni about the details of the install, tuning and performance. The install of the Motec/Pectel is a large task and expensive.
With all the sensors, install, tuning etc. they told me to set $20K aside.....

And... You can use an AEM on multiple cars too. ???? Just change the tune... I've done it....


C'mon Dan. You're smarter than that? What would be wrong if all of us could save 300-400%. You could sell 10 ProEfi systems to say 4 Motec systems if they were more affordable. On your end, you could be selling the systems and tuning 10 cars as opposed to 4????

 

[Viper Specialty]

Treesnake-

First of all, you took what I said completely the wrong way. Did you even read what I wrote before deciding I was "attacking your dream"? Believe me, I know more than enough about the systems to make an intelligent comparison from a tuner standpoint, especially when talking about Gen-4 platforms. I am not and have not ever said this is not a viable option, my only point is that an end user should be contacting a tuner in any case to help make the correct decision on this matter, because its not as simple as some people like to think it is. These systems are far over the head of most people in implementation and use.

I was talking about the wiring and implementation system, not the controller itself as you seem to think. Do you really think that Pro-EFI is going to take on a level of development that NO other tuning system manufacturer out there would even consider doing by making a Chrysler compatible controller? If you would READ my post without trying to blindly defend Pro-EFI, you would see that what I said has gone for pretty much ANY controller on ANY Viper since Gen-3! I stated the obvious fact about a "plug and play" option, and that's about all. Of course you will need a tuner to sort out a Pectel/Motec, as well as Pro-EFI- but a Gen-4 will not be in the same category in that regard as Gen-2 and Gen-3 as you seem to indicate.

As I said in the beginning, you are trying to simplify a very complicated problem.

I never said ANYTHING about it being inferior in street application. To the contrary, I said that the other systems are more powerful than most people would ever need on the street. But the fact remains, that the system is NOT compatible with a number of technologies that the Pectel and Motec systems are designed around. I said plain as day, this wont matter to most people... but to those it does, it may be a deal-breaker.

You can certainly use an AEM on multiple cars assuming it is not the JTEC specific version, which MOST Vipers do have. I am talking about different MAKES of cars, not just different Vipers here as I pointed out. However, the AEM capabilities are limited- otherwise, we wouldnt be having this conversation in the first place. The Pectel/Motec controllers could run anything from a 1-12 cylinders, with all of the items Gen-4 has, and all of the racing related options to boot. In short, You could have one controller for every single one of your street and race cars if you wanted to- an AEM is not that flexible in the case of many cars out of its capability range. Thats not to say the Pro-EFI isnt flexible as well -in its standard form- which is what I was trying to say. The point of it was that there is nothing wrong with generic controllers in light of plug-and-play, and in fact, they have some advantages.

Pectel and Motec are not "Viper Tax" as you like to think. They are the same price for any car out there, and there is a reason that they sell- they are some of the best. Period. You seem to be making this about me saying that a lower level controller is poor at controlling any application, while the reality is you seem to be unable to admit that an upper level controller is better at controlling some application.

You quite literally took everything I said out of context and twisted the points around.

 

[M_viper]

I was talking about the wiring and implementation system, not the controller itself as you seem to think. Do you really think that Pro-EFI is going to take on a level of development that NO other tuning system manufacturer out there would even consider doing by making a Chrysler compatible controller?

Why do you think they won't do it?

When I last talked to them they actually informed me that there is a viper they are working on

 

[treesnake]

Treesnake-

First of all, you took what I said completely the wrong way. Did you even read what I wrote before deciding I was "attacking your dream"? Believe me, I know more than enough about the systems to make an intelligent comparison from a tuner standpoint, especially when talking about Gen-4 platforms. I am not and have not ever said this is not a viable option, my only point is that an end user should be contacting a tuner in any case to help make the correct decision on this matter, because its not as simple as some people like to think it is. These systems are far over the head of most people in implementation and use.

I was talking about the wiring and implementation system, not the controller itself as you seem to think. Do you really think that Pro-EFI is going to take on a level of development that NO other tuning system manufacturer out there would even consider doing by making a Chrysler compatible controller? If you would READ my post without trying to blindly defend Pro-EFI, you would see that what I said has gone for pretty much ANY controller on ANY Viper since Gen-3! I stated the obvious fact about a "plug and play" option, and that's about all. Of course you will need a tuner to sort out a Pectel/Motec, as well as Pro-EFI- but a Gen-4 will not be in the same category in that regard as Gen-2 and Gen-3 as you seem to indicate.

As I said in the beginning, you are trying to simplify a very complicated problem.

I never said ANYTHING about it being inferior in street application. To the contrary, I said that the other systems are more powerful than most people would ever need on the street. But the fact remains, that the system is NOT compatible with a number of technologies that the Pectel and Motec systems are designed around. I said plain as day, this wont matter to most people... but to those it does, it may be a deal-breaker.

You can certainly use an AEM on multiple cars assuming it is not the JTEC specific version, which MOST Vipers do have. I am talking about different MAKES of cars, not just different Vipers here as I pointed out. However, the AEM capabilities are limited- otherwise, we wouldnt be having this conversation in the first place. The Pectel/Motec controllers could run anything from a 1-12 cylinders, with all of the items Gen-4 has, and all of the racing related options to boot. In short, You could have one controller for every single one of your street and race cars if you wanted to- an AEM is not that flexible in the case of many cars out of its capability range. Thats not to say the Pro-EFI isnt flexible as well -in its standard form- which is what I was trying to say. The point of it was that there is nothing wrong with generic controllers in light of plug-and-play, and in fact, they have some advantages.

Pectel and Motec are not "Viper Tax" as you like to think. They are the same price for any car out there, and there is a reason that they sell- they are some of the best. Period. You seem to be making this about me saying that a lower level controller is poor at controlling any application, while the reality is you seem to be unable to admit that an upper level controller is better at controlling some application.

You quite literally took everything I said out of context and twisted the points around.

You didn't say several times that PROEFI won't/can't work?????

Who's putting words in who' mouth here.... You seemed to ignore the whole point I was trying to make??

You skipped the whole $$$ comparison for starters.....
Secondly, I never said that Motec is not a better controller. It should be for that kind of money...
On the contrary, I have talked to John Reed about installing a state of the art Motec in my Gen 3 TT and also in my 01 drag car. I have a parts list ready for ordering. I know the capabilities...
Thirdly... Nevermind, I'm not going there...

Why are you so sure that this system will not work? YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.....
They aren't really talking about details until testing is complete...
Wouldn't it make more sense to make judgement after seeing some results? Any results???

ProEfi is drag racing oriented. Are you aware of the huge amount of success they have had there. They are just now making there way to other motorsports.
At one time, MOTEC was entering into the tuning world the same as ProEfi. I bet people said it wouldn't work either.

Reread my post. I am not defending anybody. I don't have any facts to defend nor do you have any facts to attack.
I AM EXPRESSING THE HOPE THAT THERE IS A MORE PRACTICAL WAY FOR US WEEKEND RACERS TO TUNE A VVT GEN 4 W/O SPENDING CRAZY MONEY..... or needing to find a big buck sponsor.


That is all.....

Why do you think they won't do it?

When I last talked to them they actually informed me that there is a viper they are working on

Shhhhh..... "It won't work"......

There's more going on that some people think....

 

[Viper Specialty]

TREESNAKE- Find me ONE place in my post I actually said "it won't work". Until then, I suggest you stop typing.

To the contrary, anyone reading what I ACTUALLY SAID would be able to see that I basically said it can be done, it will work, and it would be a more fitting solution for most people- it just isnt as simple getting to that point as some people would like to think it is with regard to a "plug and play" controller versus an actual "plug and play harness" or a "custom professional harness" and all of the options that go along with the production of one.

It is blindingly obvious at this point that you have no idea what I was actually talking about, and do not seem to grasp the difference between capabilities and implementation, nor the true meaning of "plug and play", "OE connectors", "patch harness" or "professional install".

All I see is a guy who took an informative post about what will be needed to properly implement this system, and twisted it into a post of negativity because it didnt jive with his big dreams of a simple solution. The irony is, what I was talking about is ALREADY PROVEN TO BE THE CASE AND HAS BEEN THE CASE WITH EVERY SINGLE ENGINE CONTROLLER OF EVERY SINGLE TYPE EVER INSTALLED ON A GEN-3 OR GEN-4 CAR.

The topic here is nothing new, nor is the information.

Why do you think they won't do it?

When I last talked to them they actually informed me that there is a viper they are working on

I never said it cant be made to work, I was talking about them not making a directly compatible controller. In this case, a patch harness WILL be needed like every other applicaton. The entrance of a patch harness into the mix can simplify some aspects, and make other aspects more complicated. Personally, I prefer harnesses built around a specific application, rather than a 1-size-fits-all harness. They tend to be better overall as you have more flexibility on what you can do, and have less potential failure points. While its still an option as I pointed out all along, I still say that a tuner should be involved to discuss all possible options and the appropriate direction that is needed to go based on your particular build.

 

[treesnake]

TREESNAKE- Find me ONE place in my post I actually said "it won't work". Until then, I suggest you stop typing.

To the contrary, anyone reading what I ACTUALLY SAID would be able to see that I basically said it can be done, it will work, and it would be a more fitting solution for most people- it just isnt as simple getting to that point as some people would like to think it is with regard to a "plug and play" controller compared to an actual "plug and play harness".

It is blindingly obvious at this point that you have no idea what I was actually talking about, and do not seem to grasp the difference between capabilities and implementation, nor the true meaning of "plug and play" versus "OE connectors"

...... I don't know where to start here. Thank you for the confirmation.....

Judging by the ***, I think every one reading this understands my point. Have a nice day Dan.

 

[Viper Specialty]

...... I don't know where to start here. Thank you for the confirmation.....

I think every one reading this understands my point. Have a nice day Dan.

Oh boy, the invisible PM's to the rescue. Here we go.

And I don't know where to start with you. I am still waiting to find out where I said it won't work anywhere in my original post.


While you are at it, try and explain how this sentence can mean anything other than me saying it CAN BE MADE TO WORK:

"A Plug and Play system for a Gen-4 like the old Gen-2 AEM setup is not feasible. It is a much more complicated system that at a minimum would require a complete adapter harness, or else your entire dashboard would not function, and a number of engine accessory features would not work."

This comment is exactly right. If you knew about the Gen-2 AEM vs. the Gen-3 AEM, you would know it is a whole different ball game between the two type of implementation. You seem to be suggesting that all of this info is wrong, and its all my imagination... and ironically, its the EXACT same position that AEM was in with the Gen-3 cars! While it does look like Pro-EFI can supply these patch harnesses for the Gen-3's as would be expected since they are available elsewhere as well, the Gen-4 harness is not yet available from them or anyone else, nor in my opinion is it the best way to go overall, because with differing applications, come differing options and setup. A one-size-fits-all harness often lacks key items that certain customers want. You cant simply make a harness that covers ALL the bases, and as the engine gets more complicated as in Gen-4, so do the available options and number of directions you can go.

Why are you ignoring the fact that this is the case with every AEM, Pectel, Motec, and even Pro-EFI car in existence that isn't a full-blown race car with all of the factory modules and controllers removed? Even Gen-2's needed a much smaller patch harness for the SCI Bus, and those are worlds simpler to deal with in this regard. I have not, and did not ever say it wouldn't work. What I did say is that it will require a patch harness, and more than likely tuner intervention, just as all of the other professional level systems require, and there are other options to consider that would be best discussed with a tuner/installer.



The guy asked for a comparison and explanation of Pro-EFI and Motec-Like system implementation, and I gave him as wide of a gathering on the topic as I could without getting too specific. I don't know why you seem so hell-bent on telling me that well-known facts are wrong.

FACT: The PRO-EFI can probably run a Gen-4 without a problem, especially street/drag cars that dont need road-race options.

FACT: You need a patch harness to do it, which currently isn't available. A plug and play computer only is not feasible.

FACT: Even without a patch harness, you could still install a custom one-off like you do with a Pectel/Motec, and probably do it today without a problem.

FACT: Generic plug and play patch harnesses, while simple, are not as good as a full MIL-spec harness built from scratch for a specific application.

FACT: Pectel/Motec may have options that certain people would like, that the Pro-EFI does not have or is not compatible with.

FACT: Pretty much anything beyond a basic installation is going to require tuner intervention on ANY of the systems.

FACT: When you start building custom harnesses, the price among controllers is near the same, and the price gap overall starts to close as a function of % total cost.

FACT: You can't call it "Viper Tax" when it is the same price for ANY car.

FACT: All of this was in the previous posts.

FACT: This is a pointless argument because you are only seeing it the way you want to see it.

FACT: I am probably wasting my time by typing this.



If you are so hell-bent on getting one of these in a Gen-4, then find the cash, buy one, and pay a professional to install and tune it like any other Pectel or Motec application would have to do. Its easy to "want" it, but its not so easy to be the one who "did" it. There is nothing stopping you from doing it tomorrow other than ponying up the money and being the first one.

 

[treesnake]

Oh boy, the invisible PM's to the rescue. Here we go.


And I don't know where to start with you. I am still waiting to find out where I said it won't work anywhere in my original post.

While you are at it, try and explain how this sentence can mean anything other than me saying it CAN BE MADE TO WORK:

"It is a much more complicated system that at a minimum would require a complete adapter harness, or else your entire dashboard would not function, and a number of engine accessory features would not work"

Nice to see that you aren't willing to admit you just may have jumped the gun and read my post just how you wanted it to sound. The guy asked for a comparison and explanation of Pro-EFI and Motec-Like system implementation, and I gave him as wide of a gathering on the topic as I could without getting too specific.

...........

 

[ViperGeorge]

Well someone has to do it....

 

[Stealth]

For stock Gen IV cars on 91 gas, I doubt tuning would be worth the cost or expense. Now, forced-induction cars or other applications, that is a different matter.

 

[highsierrahillbilly]

Good info. Can't wait to see how much more power was left on the plate on the original tune for the Gen 4 (maybe 30hp), so just imagine with headers, intake & heads (100hp?).