VCA Drama: what are the known facts?

[TrackAire]

This was without a doubt the most informative thread I have read here at the VCA. Although a lot of the replies appear to be factual, a lot appear to be tainted with subjectivity. I still don't think I have enough info to denounce the VCA altogether. Got a sneaky suspicion there are quite a few people that have been plotting the demise of the VCA for a long...long time. Tinkering little gremlins disseminating false information. On a mission they are. Oh how I have encountered a plethora of them!

The VCA is not going anywhere,.....it appears that another club will be on the market too.....big deal. The $100 bucks or so to join is not the issue (if it is, then you shouldn't be driving a Viper) and you'll see a lot of people joining both clubs. (A lot of people belong to the Shelby Club, national Mustang Club and a local Mustang club....who knows, maybe a third Viper club will come on board). I know that I would join a club that was very focused on racing and technical Viper stuff with no cruises, social events, etc. I might join all three, depends on what they have to offer. It is really hard for one club to be the answer for everybody's needs. In the end, this is going to be good for the Viper owner because we have choices.

If this was not the case, you'd only have one TV channel to watch.

Cheers,
George

 

[PeerBlock]

I'm so happy that my subscription to the VCA included all this drama at no extra charge.

I support the suggestion to make moderators personally identifiable rather than the anonymous "staff" account - they know who we are so we should know who they are.

I also support NOT making the VCA an "old boys club" again, because I want to welcome people with inferior cars to come here and post so I can bask in my vehicular superiority.

 

[Free2go]

Peerblock...very well said. As my grandpa used to say, "your as fine a man as ever drew his prikk from a mare mule".

 

[chorps]

Thanks again. Good to know and it adds to what Trackaire posted. This might sound like a bit of an unusual suggestion based on what has gone on but with your IT knowledge and the fact that you seem to like the Forums, why don't you consider being a moderator.

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I'll have to bow out on that for other reasons.

 

[ViperGeorge]

The VCA is not going anywhere,.....it appears that another club will be on the market too.....big deal. The $100 bucks or so to join is not the issue (if it is, then you shouldn't be driving a Viper) and you'll see a lot of people joining both clubs. (A lot of people belong to the Shelby Club, national Mustang Club and a local Mustang club....who knows, maybe a third Viper club will come on board). I know that I would join a club that was very focused on racing and technical Viper stuff with no cruises, social events, etc. I might join all three, depends on what they have to offer. It is really hard for one club to be the answer for everybody's needs. In the end, this is going to be good for the Viper owner because we have choices.

If this was not the case, you'd only have one TV channel to watch.

Cheers,
George

I posted this in another thread.

I am not a rocket scientist nor a brain surgeon but if the information posted on the other site is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt it and I know it is absolutely true for many), there are 18 Regions that have already voted to leave the VCA, 9 others are voting, and only 2 have for sure decided to stay in the VCA - Kansas and S. Florida. If this is accurate how does the VCA survive? What will the National officers/board do to keep the VCA together? This post is not meant to be the tombstone for the VCA but I honestly don't understand what will sustain the club. Can one of the Board members/officers respond?

 

[MoparMap]

I think there's a little bit of hidden information in that as well. From what I heard a lot of the regions voted to remove themselves from national, but not necessarily all of the members in the regions voted as they just didn't really care one way or the other. What would likely happen if I had to guess is that national VCA regions will still exist to some degree (some might be combined), but new regional leaders would have to be elected/appointed.

 

[ViperGeorge]

I think there's a little bit of hidden information in that as well. From what I heard a lot of the regions voted to remove themselves from national, but not necessarily all of the members in the regions voted as they just didn't really care one way or the other. What would likely happen if I had to guess is that national VCA regions will still exist to some degree (some might be combined), but new regional leaders would have to be elected/appointed.

It is true that not everyone voted however the results from a few regions I'm familiar with those that voted were either unanimous or in the 90% range. Those regions that did vote to withdraw are telling their members not to renew with the VCA whether they voted or not. My guess is that those folks that are less involved will simply follow the lead of their regional Presidents.

 

[Coloviper]

Logic would dictate that if all these people just don't care, then they are not going to renew in ANY club. MoparMap, if I had to guess at your guess, I would say you are dead wrong in your assumptions.

 

[CWhiteRun]

Logic would dictate that if all these people just don't care, then they are not going to renew in ANY club. Chris M, if I had to guess at your guess, I would say you are dead wrong in your assumptions.

Fixed it for ya.

 

[Grisoman]

only 2 have for sure decided to stay in the VCA - Kansas and S. Florida.

SoFL is rethinking that commitment and this week Mr. Ilver asked the SoFL members to express their preference for VOA or VCA (instead of just a unilateral decision by someone).

 

[Bobpantax]

Dave initially sent out an email stating that the local Board had voted to leave the VCA as of next year. He then, after reflection, sent out another email stating that he would give all the members of our Region a chance to indicate how they felt. There has been no final decision.

 

[MoparMap]

It is true that not everyone voted however the results from a few regions I'm familiar with those that voted were either unanimous or in the 90% range. Those regions that did vote to withdraw are telling their members not to renew with the VCA whether they voted or not. My guess is that those folks that are less involved will simply follow the lead of their regional Presidents.

I had heard that as well, but the example I heard specifically from our local pres was Texas. They have something like 60+ members in the group, but only 20 some voted. It was a "unanimous" vote by those that did vote, but for those that didn't care to vote I'd agree that they'll likely just go with the flow regarding whatever is done. I think those people are likely just regional people that do local stuff anywyay, so a national club probably doesn't mean a whole lot to them. I'm somewhat in the same boat in that I don't really have the means to travel the country and attend national events right now. Don't have the vacation time or the money to do it, so I stick to mostly local stuff.

I'm not really sure how the regional splits would be handled legally speaking anyway. It seems what would likely make the most sense would be that whatever regions want to split just vacate the regional club anyway. There's not really any point in "taking it with them" so to speak, because if they split from national they won't get anything from them anyway, so there's no point in keeping the regional association. The region will likely still exist as far as national is concerned, so if someone wants to step up and fill the void for the local governing there's no reason they couldn't.

And the Chris stuff is really getting pretty old. I've commented time and again that you guys are really just perpetuating a lie. I am not Chris, I have not given Chris my account info, and I haven't even really talked to him in several months. I legitimately bought my car earlier this year and joined the club and happen to live in Kansas. Deal with it. Believe or not there is more than one person who doesn't see things the same way as you.

 

[TrackAire]

I posted this in another thread.

I am not a rocket scientist nor a brain surgeon but if the information posted on the other site is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt it and I know it is absolutely true for many), there are 18 Regions that have already voted to leave the VCA, 9 others are voting, and only 2 have for sure decided to stay in the VCA - Kansas and S. Florida. If this is accurate how does the VCA survive? What will the National officers/board do to keep the VCA together? This post is not meant to be the tombstone for the VCA but I honestly don't understand what will sustain the club. Can one of the Board members/officers respond?

We won't know until the dust settles (18 to 24 months) but I'm guessing there are enough Viper owners that are part of the VCA that don't go to functions, don't get on this forum and don't really care about any of the politics but will just re-up their membership because they own a Viper and because they want to be part of the Viper Club. A lot of people pay for a gym membership but don't really use the gym....it's a small enough dollar figure that doesn't matter enough to put a lot of thought into it. If the VCA has 1000 paying members but now has less overhead because the club is smaller, I can see them surviving (not counting any potential legal issues and costs involved, raffle stuff, etc). Will the VCA be exactly the way it was?....doubt it but it can probably survive if they want to.

When I was a member, I doubt I've ever seen more 60 to 75 members at one of our meetings or functions (except the Xmas dinner which is a special gathering).....and I'm sure the Nor Cal region had a lot more paying members than that. I think the key will be time.....since the existing members might just be moving laterally to the other club, they may want to try it out for a year or so before they decide to not re-up with the VCA. Time will tell. I'm already seeing some exciting ideas from the other club, so for most people it will give them the ability to pick and choose events, functions, dinners and social events.

I don't think the membership cost will be the issue....it will be how the members are treated and what benefits they have available. This has never been about the cost of membership in my eyes. But integrity and respect are priceless.

Cheers,
George

 

[Bonkers]

there are 18 Regions that have already voted to leave the VCA

I may have missed the explination earlier in the thread, but
I fail to see how any region could possibly do this. The regions
arent privately owned. Sure the Pres of each could succede as
a person, but the memberships would still be valid with the VCA,
and there is no way that Pres could take the name with them.

And even if they do vote to leave, what happens to the ones who
want to stay (as I SERIOUSLY doubt 100% of any region would
agree to leave) - When dues are paid, and the VCA still has
ownership of the name, it would seem the Region would still
exist.

It would be like the electronics section of a store voting to leave
Walmart.

 

[TowDawg]

I may have missed the explination earlier in the thread, but
I fail to see how any region could possibly do this. The regions
arent privately owned. Sure the Pres of each could succede as
a person, but the memberships would still be valid with the VCA,
and there is no way that Pres could take the name with them.

And even if they do vote to leave, what happens to the ones who
want to stay (as I SERIOUSLY doubt 100% of any region would
agree to leave) - When dues are paid, and the VCA still has
ownership of the name, it would seem the Region would still
exist.

It would be like the electronics section of a store voting to leave
Walmart.

You are correct, but I think you're underestimating the sheer numbers of people from those regions who are not going to renew with the VCA for 2014. Technically, the VCA can still say they have all of the chapters that currently exist. The problem is that maybe 3 people from a current region of 80 or stay with the VCA. The VCA still has that region, but they just lost a TON of money (which they are already apparently in big trouble with anyway). Plus, do you think those 3 people are going to stay in 2015, when there's only 3 of them spread over an entire state or two? Sounds like they'd have some great events and get-togethers by themselves. At that point, why be in a club at all? Relationship with SRT? Gone. Magazine? Maybe if you ever get it. VOI? If the VCA is already so low on cash that they had to have an illegal raffle in order to pay the regions their local dues (that should have already been paid MUCH earlier in the year from the actual membership dues), how on earth are they going to have anything close to past VOI's when income from membership goes completely through the floor? More raffles? If there are only a small percentage of current members after the renewal time, do you have any idea what the tickets would have to cost in order to pay for the raffle car and put profit on top of it? Plus, who in their right mind is going to buy a raffle ticket again after the fiasco that just happened?

 

[AZTVR]

I may have missed the explination earlier in the thread, but
I fail to see how any region could possibly do this. The regions
arent privately owned. Sure the Pres of each could succede as
a person, but the memberships would still be valid with the VCA,
and there is no way that Pres could take the name with them.

I'm not so sure of the legalities of how the local clubs are registered or incorporated, or whatever. If I go to quite a few websites of local clubs, there is no mention of VCA in their name. I was thinking that the club structure is independent. The people who belong to the local club pay their dues to the entity that their local club chose to affiliate with. By making that affiliation, then the local club president is on the *** of the national club. At least, that's the way I am understanding it from a non-lawyer view. It seems like it must be like that in order for various local clubs to be doing what they appear to be doing with regards to the new national club.

 

[Bonkers]

You are correct, but I think you're underestimating the sheer
numbers of people from those regions who are not going to
renew with the VCA for 2014.

And I think you are overestimating. Will people leave? Sure.
Alot? Maybe. But when you've been here as long as I have you
start to realize most (Id guess 80%) of those who claim to
be leaving and never come back... never leave. I personally
know two people banned here at the site who still diligently
pay their dues. Its all posturing by most.

Why? Because its only $12 a month, so why not.

Most members dont give a rats ass about a relationship with
SRT. Most dont care about the Magazine. Most dont care
about VOI. What most care about is information regarding
repairs and events and that isnt going to change much (if at
all.) When an event is posted at Alley or VOA it will bleed to
this forum as well like it always does. No one is going to host
an "anyone-welcome-except-VCA-member" Viper cruise.

I think once we clean up the administrative issues the VCA will
bounce right back, just with less posts being made here...

AZTVR:
You might be right, but I do know that with paid events held in our
region we all write checks to "VCA MD/VA region." If the treasury
is controlled by the VCA, and the Presidents dont have legal right
to recruite non-forum members I would like to see how their new
region would finance themselves (assuming if they would need to.)

It just seems odd to me this whole voting to leave idea. I get trying
to start a whole new club (its been done before) but those guys
just left. You can't simply take those who dont want to go, who
have no idea whats going on, or vote for them in any non-club
manner. If thats the case i see the VOA starting out under a pile of
small claims lawsuits...
\

 

[Bobpantax]

I believe that each Region is an independently owned entity with its own officers and directors. Some are corporations. Some are LLCs. Think of the relationship as more like a franchisor/franchisee relationship. See the MVCO website and its Bylaws as an example. If the people from a Region decide to form a region of a new club, they would need to delete any reference to the VCA or any VCA copyrighted material from their entity name, letterhead, etc., and, assuming they do it before the end of the current fiscal year, return any remaining stipend sent out by the VCA National function since that was for VCA related activities and it would certainly not be proper or lawful for those funds to be used for non VCA activities since the funds were derived from VCA dues. PatentLaw might want to jump in here since he is an intellectual property lawyer.

 

[PDCjonny]

And I think you are overestimating. Will people leave? Sure.
Alot? Maybe. But when you've been here as long as I have you
start to realize most (Id guess 80%) of those who claim to
be leaving and never come back... never leave. I personally
know two people banned here at the site who still diligently
pay their dues. Its all posturing by most.
\

So when a region like NY/CT membership votes over 80% to leave the VCA, you're saying they are just posturing and those 80% are going to renew their membership here?
Umm. No.

 

[Bobpantax]

I think he is suggesting that the base VCA membership fee is , for most members, very little money, ( Less than two tanks of gas) and that some who join the new club will also reup with the VCA. Why not? Site access, magazine and member discounts with various vendors alone is worth it. Some people are acting like the amount of the dues is a fortune. Those people need to reconsider whether they should own a Viper to begin with if paying dues is an issue.

So when a region like NY/CT membership votes over 80% to leave the VCA, you're saying they are just posturing and those 80% are going to renew their membership here?
Umm. No.

 

[ViperGeorge]

I had heard that as well, but the example I heard specifically from our local pres was Texas. They have something like 60+ members in the group, but only 20 some voted. It was a "unanimous" vote by those that did vote, but for those that didn't care to vote I'd agree that they'll likely just go with the flow regarding whatever is done. I think those people are likely just regional people that do local stuff anywyay, so a national club probably doesn't mean a whole lot to them. I'm somewhat in the same boat in that I don't really have the means to travel the country and attend national events right now. Don't have the vacation time or the money to do it, so I stick to mostly local stuff.

I'm not really sure how the regional splits would be handled legally speaking anyway. It seems what would likely make the most sense would be that whatever regions want to split just vacate the regional club anyway. There's not really any point in "taking it with them" so to speak, because if they split from national they won't get anything from them anyway, so there's no point in keeping the regional association. The region will likely still exist as far as national is concerned, so if someone wants to step up and fill the void for the local governing there's no reason they couldn't.

And the Chris stuff is really getting pretty old. I've commented time and again that you guys are really just perpetuating a lie. I am not Chris, I have not given Chris my account info, and I haven't even really talked to him in several months. I legitimately bought my car earlier this year and joined the club and happen to live in Kansas. Deal with it. Believe or not there is more than one person who doesn't see things the same way as you.

Each of the Regions is locally incorporated as a not for profit. The Regions are not "owned" by the National club and they are run by a Regional Board of Directors. When the region votes (in accordance with their local bylaws) that vote is binding and the legal entity that represents the Region leaves the VCA. It cannot be split up and it cannot stay with the VCA. Take CO/WY/UT, they voted to leave the VCA and join the new org. There will be no regional club in this vast area. If some members of the CO/WY/UT region wish to stay with the VCA the VCA would have to assign them to the closest remaining region - Kansas (which by the way is freakin far from Denver). The other possibility would be that the VCA gets those folks who wish to remain in the VCA to incorporate a new regional entity - pretty difficult.

 

[MoparMap]

What good would splitting from the national VCA do a local region? I would think if they want to cut ties it would be easier to just vacate the region and form a new one in its place than to try to cut ties from the national. I suppose there's stuff like regional accounts and whatnot that might go with the club, but if the money in those accounts came from national to begin with I'd agree that they have no right to it as a different club. I'd think it would make more sense for the new club to start up its own regions than to try to move everything over from the existing. If they want to be separate from VCA, building the club with blocks that say "VCA" on them doesn't seem like the way to go. If a new club wants to start up they should have to start from scratch as opposed to taking everything from the group they're leaving and making them start over.

 

[Bobpantax]

Actually, incorporating a new entity these days is easy. Whether anyone chooses to do that is another matter. As for local club compliance with non profit status and financial reporting, I would bet that if one were to look under the tent on that issue, one might find that the Regions are a very mixed bag. Some probably aren't even in a non profit entity. While this whole controversy has been going on, I have been wondering how many regions have all their ducks in a row regarding non profit status; any financial reporting required to their respective members, if any ;and, any Federal and State required filings. Probably a good time for each Region to do its own, internal compliance check since this dispute and some wild allegations have been vomited all over the net.

Each of the Regions is locally incorporated as a not for profit. The Regions are not "owned" by the National club and they are run by a Regional Board of Directors. When the region votes (in accordance with their local bylaws) that vote is binding and the legal entity that represents the Region leaves the VCA. It cannot be split up and it cannot stay with the VCA. Take CO/WY/UT, they voted to leave the VCA and join the new org. There will be no regional club in this vast area. If some members of the CO/WY/UT region wish to stay with the VCA the VCA would have to assign them to the closest remaining region - Kansas (which by the way is freakin far from Denver). The other possibility would be that the VCA gets those folks who wish to remain in the VCA to incorporate a new regional entity - pretty difficult.

 

[ViperGeorge]

What good would splitting from the national VCA do a local region? I would think if they want to cut ties it would be easier to just vacate the region and form a new one in its place than to try to cut ties from the national. I suppose there's stuff like regional accounts and whatnot that might go with the club, but if the money in those accounts came from national to begin with I'd agree that they have no right to it as a different club. I'd think it would make more sense for the new club to start up its own regions than to try to move everything over from the existing. If they want to be separate from VCA, building the club with blocks that say "VCA" on them doesn't seem like the way to go. If a new club wants to start up they should have to start from scratch as opposed to taking everything from the group they're leaving and making them start over.

As I understand it from one of the original founders of the VCA, the National was there to support the regions (not the other way around) and to maintain a relationship with Chrysler (which would not have been practical for 40 regions to do and which as we know now they screwed up). In terms of dues, you shouldn't look at it like the dues is National's and its out of the goodness of their heart they give a piece to the Region. It is the other way around. Dues from regional members is sent to National so it is easier on the members and to simplify and standardize the process.

The regions are separate legal entities and they own their own bank accounts, have their own Board, their own officers (including a Treasurer), and conduct their own events. I don't think the Regions that have decided to leave are taking anything that belongs to the VCA. Some folks would argue that it is the other way around. Regional member dues was used to capitalize VPA with a $50,000 loan from the VCA treasury. That money was not returned to the VCA and when a Region leaves the VCA, VPA stays with the VCA.

 

[Bobpantax]

The funds sent out by the VCA are derived, at least in part, from member dues. You might make an argument that with respect to those members who have affirmatively elected to move to the new club, the money atributable to their dues might be moved ( I think that it is a losing argument since once the dues are paid in, they are the property of the VCA) but there is no such argument for those members who do not wish to make the move. Once again. The analogy is to the franchisor/franchisee relationship. When franchisees leave, they do not get to keep the intellectual property and they do not get to keep any funds that were paid to them based on a continuing relationship.

As for VPA, the member discounts available at the regular member and Venom levels are significant and you need to feed that into the equation. The VCA also owns 100% of VPA so any loan, if any, was to a wholely owned entity. Many members live too far from where local events are held to participate in them and we have had posts on this for years. At least VPA gives them a member benefit that they can use, along with other vendor discounts at or with other sponsoring vendors on this site or in the magazine

Can you imagine what Burger King would do to a franchisee who tried to do so who jumps to McDonalds?

As I understand it from one of the original founders of the VCA, the National was there to support the regions (not the other way around) and to maintain a relationship with Chrysler (which would not have been practical for 40 regions to do and which as we know now they screwed up). In terms of dues, you shouldn't look at it like the dues is National's and its out of the goodness of their heart they give a piece to the Region. It is the other way around. Dues from regional members is sent to National so it is easier on the members and to simplify and standardize the process.

The regions are separate legal entities and they own their own bank accounts, have their own Board, their own officers (including a Treasurer), and conduct their own events. I don't think the Regions that have decided to leave are taking anything that belongs to the VCA. Some folks would argue that it is the other way around. Regional member dues was used to capitalize VPA with a $50,000 loan from the VCA treasury. That money was not returned to the VCA and when a Region leaves the VCA, VPA stays with the VCA.

 

[MoparMap]

As I understand it from one of the original founders of the VCA, the National was there to support the regions (not the other way around) and to maintain a relationship with Chrysler (which would not have been practical for 40 regions to do and which as we know now they screwed up). In terms of dues, you shouldn't look at it like the dues is National's and its out of the goodness of their heart they give a piece to the Region. It is the other way around. Dues from regional members is sent to National so it is easier on the members and to simplify and standardize the process.

The regions are separate legal entities and they own their own bank accounts, have their own Board, their own officers (including a Treasurer), and conduct their own events. I don't think the Regions that have decided to leave are taking anything that belongs to the VCA. Some folks would argue that it is the other way around. Regional member dues was used to capitalize VPA with a $50,000 loan from the VCA treasury. That money was not returned to the VCA and when a Region leaves the VCA, VPA stays with the VCA.

Fair enough, I guess I was just looking at it as seeming a lot easier to drop any association with a national club and just start over as opposed to trying to figure out the legalities of shifting from one "umbrella" organization to another. If the VCA organization is the problem, I'd think people would be more apt to just leave and start fresh as opposed to trying to shuffle things around. My "knee ****" over-simplified reaction is basically, if you want to make a new club you have to start from scratch, you don't take an existing club and rebrand it. If you want to flat out copy the entire thing, then whatever, but it just seems like it would make sense to start the books clean so to speak.

 

[ViperGeorge]

The funds sent out by the VCA are derived, at least in part, from member dues. You might make an argument that with respect to those members who have affirmatively elected to move to the new club, the money atributable to their dues might be moved ( I think that it is a losing argument since once the dues are paid in, they are the property of the VCA) but there is no such argument for those members who do not wish to make the move. Once again. The analogy is to the franchisor/franchisee relationship. When franchisees leave, they do not get to keep the intellectual property and they do not get to keep any funds that were paid to them based on a continuing relationship.

As for VPA, the member discounts available at the regular member and Venom levels are significant and you need to feed that into the equation. The VCA also owns 100% of VPA so any loan, if any, was to a wholely owned entity. Many members live too far from where local events are held to participate in them and we have had posts on this for years. At least VPA gives them a member benefit that they can use, along with other vendor discounts at or with other sponsoring vendors on this site or in the magazine

Can you imagine what Burger King would do to a franchisee who tried to do so who jumps to McDonalds?

The stipends sent to local clubs are a direct result of member's dues. Each region receives $55 out of the dues payment in accordance with the VCA's bylaws (Article II Section 6). This is sent by National to the regions. It is not the VCA's money at this point. There is no stipulation in the VCA bylaws that the regions must return any portion of this $55 at any time for any reason.

Now concerning VPA, as I previously posted, regions leaving the VCA will likely lose the equity that has been invested in VPA by the VCA. I could see some regions or members filing a law suit in an attempt to receive something from that transaction but I doubt success.

 

[ViperGeorge]

Fair enough, I guess I was just looking at it as seeming a lot easier to drop any association with a national club and just start over as opposed to trying to figure out the legalities of shifting from one "umbrella" organization to another. If the VCA organization is the problem, I'd think people would be more apt to just leave and start fresh as opposed to trying to shuffle things around. My "knee ****" over-simplified reaction is basically, if you want to make a new club you have to start from scratch, you don't take an existing club and rebrand it. If you want to flat out copy the entire thing, then whatever, but it just seems like it would make sense to start the books clean so to speak.

You might be correct if the regions were legally affiliated with the national but they're not. They are independent entities. In fact in the VCA's tax return when asked if they have chapters they answered "no".

 

[ViperGeorge]

I'm posting the following map to illustrate my point in a previous post. This was posted on another site. Given the number of regions that have already voted to leave the VCA, how does it survive? What is the National Board's plan to resolve this? Elections for new officers in January seems too late. It would seem that it is the VCA that has to do the rebuilding as only a few regions are likely to be left. Faced with this tidal wave what can be done? If this post upsets the mods, I apologize in advance but I would like to know what the National Board's plan is in light of the actions being taken by the regions.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Coloviper]

George, you need to update for the international regions as well, what about Japan, Canada, Europe, etc? Holds even more impact when you look at it as a whole and then realize the only regions to stay don't believe in Evolution.