VCA Drama: what are the known facts?

[Bobpantax]

Just to be fair to both sides of what I referred to as a feud at the beginning of the thread, I am trying to source and obtain the Marv S memo that Tony referred to in his post above. This was the memo that supplied the facts that were the basis of the renewed suspension for JonB.

 

[FrankBarba]

If this Mopar Map guy wont help you all out. Let me know. I'll hire a private eye,
We will find out the address, Get pictures.
and then we will check with the local city to see who actually owns the building, and what is being paid.
We will get to the bottom of this.

 

[Janni]

Of course I have it - but can't post anything here about it.

Of course I also asked for a headcount vote and never received it.

And the list goes on.

 

[MoparMap]

Should be easy enough to check ownership with just an address. That information is available via the county tax records online.

 

[TrackAire]

I admit, I do keep forgetting that the business is not Chris's and keep referencing it as such. That is my fault, and I'll own up to that. I agree that he should answer to his bosses, but the focus then shifts to the bosses. On the one hand, if you have an employee that gets results, but might not always be the easiest to work with, you're in a tough situation. There are a few approaches. One is probably the most noble and involves trying to hire only the most respectable and trushworthy people to help, but as we all know this is likely the least common occurance. On the other hand, you can hire the most weasly sharks in the water that will do anything for a buck so you can pad your wallets as fat as you can get them. Then you can fall somewhere in the middle where you hire people you like that also perform. You might like one a little more than another and put up with some more flak from some as long as they are doing their job effectively.

I also wonder some about the sublease so to speak, but I also don't necessarily know the full situation. It could be that a full independent setup from the club (as far as the building owner is concerned) might carry extra costs for whatever reason, but this would be just speculation. Kind of like it might be cheaper to get more space than to get a new space, even though it's in the same building, but as mentioned, this is just a guess on my part. And I have no idea about the warehouse either or its location. I had asked once previously because I was on a bit of a deadline and was going to see about just picking some parts up myself since I was local (back before all of this erupted). I never got an answer, but it didn't really matter to me and Chris said he would deliver stuff to me at get togethers if I wanted. I think part of the issue might be that there are two businesses in the same building. The location and contents of the building aren't necessarily just the club's, so it could be a bit of a potential disclosure issue. For all I know they could have nuclear warheads on the racks next to body panels and all employees are sworn to silence, though I would imagine this pretty unlikely. All the same, Tim's business is entitled to some degree of privacy, so it would have to be handled appropriately. Frankly I'm guessing it's largely just picked out of convenience. It makes sense for Chris to keep the parts near him since he's running the business, and since Chris and Tim are friends, it makes it easier for Chris to deal with warehouse issues when his line of contact is a buddy.

I know this could easily turn into shady deals, but I also just look at it as two good friends helping each other out. We have family friends that have a factory in town with a lot of spare room in their shipping area. They let us keep some of our cars there because they know we have cool cars that we want to keep out of the weather. I've shipped several parts there as well because they have a loading dock and it helps cut shipping costs. I see the same thing when I look at VPA and the warehouse. Chris got way more parts from Chrysler than he was expecting and Tim offered him some room because they're friends. I don't think this has to turn into a wild backdoor mafia chop house for Viper parts. I guess I just try to see the better in people, but I never even had the remotest thought that Tim was trying to make a buck off the club.

Here is the address and website of the company where the VPA is located according to documents filed by the VCA.

Salesmidwest.com

Sales Midwest Inc.
15350 South Keeler Street
Section A
Olathe, KS 66062

Since they have posted videos of the interior of their building on their website, I don't believe we are showing or exposing anything that is confidential....it's already on the internet on their website. MoparMap, are you willing to visit the warehouse and take pictures if allowed?

Like I posted earlier, pictures of our inventory and the square footage of the building we are renting would put a lot of this lack of transparency to rest. I am hoping that we are getting a fair market rate and everything is on the up and up.

Regarding picking an employee, you're logic is not really making any sense....just a spin on what could have, might have, maybe have, happened. Name me one company owner that would allow an employee to set his own wages, not tell the boss what those wages are and not disclose financials, sales, profit and loss statements, etc when asked? Even the Mafia does not allow that, do you think any other industry in the WORLD would? The more you write about the situation to help spin it, the worse it is actually getting. Facts are a key ingredient here....without them nothing good can move forward.

Since these questions are clearly not going to get answered (they would have been by now if the intent was to ever do so), what is going to happen is this. Viper owners will end up having two clubs to chose from. The VCA and who ever else decides to start a club. Some will join the VCA, some will join the other club and some will join both. The reality is since we will now have choices the Viper owner will end up ahead since we'll have competition in the market. It's just sad and an embarrassment to have it come about this way.

George

 

[MoparMap]

I would, but to be brutally honest I just really don't care at this point. I'd like to help out, but I sincerely doubt that some pictures would really help anything. If anything it would probably just give people more things to complain about. A Google satellite view gives a good idea of the complex, looks to be fairly small, so my guess it the parts are probably in one of the other buildings. At this point I'm just tired of fighting. Too many people are mad about too many things both past and present, and one bandaid isn't going to fix a case of cancer. People are already planning to split, regardless of whatever efforts the club is planning, so at this point I think about the only thing to do is wait and see. When the tidal wave of frenzy settles we'll see what's left. My friends are still my friends, and I will still hang out with them, regardless of what people may think of them. I look forward to meeting new owners through whatever means are available in the long run.

 

[AZTVR]

For what it's worth, Tim makes $0 from the warehouse. He merely charges exactly what the space costs him, so he's not making any profit off of the club.

What really is at the core of the question is whether Tim benefits from the sublease. i.e., is his net cost for leasing warehouse space now less because he was able to sub lease "his" unused space to the VCA. In that case I would say he benefits. That is perfectly legal and is not underhanded in my opinion, if he could have done that with anybody. The only problem is that it has the appearance of conflict of interest, and the danger of that is exactly the type of conspiracy theories that have arisen. This is why that I think that the whole VPA thing, using club officers and money being involved is not appropriate. I don't doubt that it is legal. Personally I do not think that it was done for personal gain, and I can believe that it was done to help the club. But, in the end it resulted in the distrust that has damaged the VCA's reputation. Just because one can do something cheaper one way than the other, doesn't make it the "right" thing to do. This post is mostly rhetorical; but, we only have you that is willing to answer some of these questions.

 

[Gustfront]

I would, but to be brutally honest I just really don't care at this point. I'd like to help out, but I sincerely doubt that some pictures would really help anything. If anything it would probably just give people more things to complain about. QUOTE]

Tell us again how you don't care. But then spend all this time writing long rebuttals. And also how you have picked a side. hmm

 

[JohnnyLightning]

Wow I can finally post again.

 

[Oilman1934]

Me too didn't understand what I did?

 

[kickinasp]

MoparMap your wrong on what JRT was paid and what C2C is paid. Its exactly the same. VCA was paying $5K a month for JRT to run the club ( can show you the invoices), the board was told that Marshalls would do it for far less, of course never told how much less. It took over a year to get that information, and when asked point blank at the Presidents meeting, Chris would not state the amount. Only when a loud outcry by everyone in the meeting did Lee state it was $5K, he could nto bring himself to say $60K. So everyone knew the board was lied to when we were told that the amount paid would be "far less". Even Ralphs wife offered to do it for less, but the Officers thought that was a conflict of interest... yeah like Mary running it wasnt. There was suppose to be an RFQ, which never happened. These are the facts with documents to back it up. This is just one of the many inconsistencies in what the board was told and what actually happened. We were told the warehouse space was free and an all volunteer positions when the board agreed to vote for the original parts to be purchased from Chrysler. By the way, it was voted that the amount VCA would give VPA was the exact amount of the cost of the parts, $36K and it would be a loan to be paid back immediately by the profits on sales, not the $50k "investment" that they claim now. The last raffle was illegal with major ramifications yet to come. Can go on and on ... your new and dont have the facts, some of us that have been around from the start know the whole story and why if VCA is going to continue, a COMPLETE house cleaning needs to happen. All trust is gone, only a completely knew group in VCA and VPA will bring the members back. If not, the VCA is doomed. I dont want to see that, but those that want to see VCA survive have no choice but to demand the house cleaning or watch it all go down the drain.

 

[ViperJohn]

The house cleaning is underway, by next elections, you would have all new National Officers. You only have two National Officers at this point, Dan wants out and only intends to stay until new President is elected. The opportunity to get new fresh people involved is before us. I also would only like to hang around until end of year. In a perfect world, Tony and Adrian would come back, but I know that probably won't happen.

kicknasp---I read your post and would like some clarification. You are saying the we paid JRT 60K per year before or after the bankruptcy? It's my understanding that Chrysler used to pick up the entire bill for JRT or perhaps most or part of it.

 

[Gustfront]

The house cleaning is underway, by next elections, you would have all new National Officers. You only have two National Officers at this point, Dan wants out and only intends to stay until new President is elected. The opportunity to get new fresh people involved is before us. I also would only like to hang around until end of year. In a perfect world, Tony and Adrian would come back, but I know that probably won't happen.

kicknasp---I read your post and would like some clarification. You are saying the we paid JRT 60K per year before or after the bankruptcy? It's my understanding that Chrysler used to pick up the entire bill for JRT or perhaps most or part of it.

What about the Marshalls? Will they still be involved in club OR club parts business?

 

[kickinasp]

Will have to go back and look for the exact dates, but the 60K per year figure was paid the last couple of years before C2C took over. When Steve Wedel was President is when the VCA started pressuring JRT for pricing changes. That would have been the time period that Dodge had lost its budget for VCA, so VCA took over paying for the various tasks and realized there was a lot of costs associated,,, JRT was charging for almost an a-la cart fee basis, plus payment for the staff that was working on VCA items. VCA took over the a-la cart costs by doing those internally and the contract was written for JRT to only handle the membership duties. Answer phones, e-mails, process memberships, mail the checks to regions, collect fees for the raffles, host the raffle, etc.,.

 

[Bobpantax]

Interesting post. Hypothetically, what if the VCA sold its 100% interest in VPA in a formal bidding process with a minimum bid determined pursuant to a professional appraiser? Then it would be up to the purchaser of the stock what to do with the employees, landlord, etc? I am not suggesting that that be done or that it even makes sense to do it. But I am curious what you may think about it.

What really is at the core of the question is whether Tim benefits from the sublease. i.e., is his net cost for leasing warehouse space now less because he was able to sub lease "his" unused space to the VCA. In that case I would say he benefits. That is perfectly legal and is not underhanded in my opinion, if he could have done that with anybody. The only problem is that it has the appearance of conflict of interest, and the danger of that is exactly the type of conspiracy theories that have arisen. This is why that I think that the whole VPA thing, using club officers and money being involved is not appropriate. I don't doubt that it is legal. Personally I do not think that it was done for personal gain, and I can believe that it was done to help the club. But, in the end it resulted in the distrust that has damaged the VCA's reputation. Just because one can do something cheaper one way than the other, doesn't make it the "right" thing to do. This post is mostly rhetorical; but, we only have you that is willing to answer some of these questions.

 

[72hemi]

MoparMap your wrong on what JRT was paid and what C2C is paid. Its exactly the same. VCA was paying $5K a month for JRT to run the club ( can show you the invoices), the board was told that Marshalls would do it for far less, of course never told how much less. It took over a year to get that information, and when asked point blank at the Presidents meeting, Chris would not state the amount. Only when a loud outcry by everyone in the meeting did Lee state it was $5K, he could nto bring himself to say $60K. So everyone knew the board was lied to when we were told that the amount paid would be "far less". Even Ralphs wife offered to do it for less, but the Officers thought that was a conflict of interest... yeah like Mary running it wasnt. There was suppose to be an RFQ, which never happened. These are the facts with documents to back it up. This is just one of the many inconsistencies in what the board was told and what actually happened. We were told the warehouse space was free and an all volunteer positions when the board agreed to vote for the original parts to be purchased from Chrysler. By the way, it was voted that the amount VCA would give VPA was the exact amount of the cost of the parts, $36K and it would be a loan to be paid back immediately by the profits on sales, not the $50k "investment" that they claim now. The last raffle was illegal with major ramifications yet to come. Can go on and on ... your new and dont have the facts, some of us that have been around from the start know the whole story and why if VCA is going to continue, a COMPLETE house cleaning needs to happen. All trust is gone, only a completely knew group in VCA and VPA will bring the members back. If not, the VCA is doomed. I dont want to see that, but those that want to see VCA survive have no choice but to demand the house cleaning or watch it all go down the drain.

I was at this president's meeting and can vouch that this is how the events transpired. I couldn't believe how much effort it took from the president's to get the answer to this simple basic question.

 

[MoparMap]

I would, but to be brutally honest I just really don't care at this point. I'd like to help out, but I sincerely doubt that some pictures would really help anything. If anything it would probably just give people more things to complain about. QUOTE]

Tell us again how you don't care. But then spend all this time writing long rebuttals. And also how you have picked a side. hmm

I know I've done that in the past, but I'm done with it. It's not worth fighting anymore, because for every opinion I try to offer five more people beat me down for it. Everyone asks where I'm getting my information from and it's a pretty simple answer. I'm hearing the other side of the story from the people involved that everyone is accusing. Not sure why differing opinions are such a shock to people, but whatever, it's irrelevant.

I support my friends and don't think they're the villians that everyone is trying to make them out to be. I met Jim Johnson and Maurice last weekend and guess what? They seem like nice guys, I had no beef with them and didn't care one bit about the crap going on. We all had a good time hanging out and talking about and watching Vipers.

The politics are stupid and just a waste of time to me. I have friends on both sides of this fight and try to support them if someone is personally attacking them, that's it. I don't care what happens to the club because I still have my Viper friends. If the new club happens I'll probably be a part of it too because I want to hang out and do Viper stuff. If they start becoming corrupt and this happens all over again I don't really care. I'm plenty happy with the club the way it is now because the upper level decisions really haven't affected me. I get what I pay for. Other people don't feel like they're getting their money's worth, but that's their opinion, I'm not going to try to tell them otherwise. What they do with their money is entirely up to them.

 

[AZTVR]

Interesting post. Hypothetically, what if the VCA sold its 100% interest in VPA in a formal bidding process with a minimum bid determined pursuant to a professional appraiser? Then it would be up to the purchaser of the stock what to do with the employees, landlord, etc? I am not suggesting that that be done or that it even makes sense to do it. But I am curious what you may think about it.

Yes, if the new club was not a presented option, your suggestion would be what I think would fix some issues. However, it just appears to me that the new club will happen unless the present VCA officers can convince the disaffected ones to run for office or return to office in the VCA. I only get my info from the 2 major Viper forums, and am losing interest in keeping up; but, it really appears that there is no stopping the new club formation, and it has lots of support.

I would ask the VCA officers to ask themselves, what serves the majority of Viper owners best (not just the current members in good standing). I realize their charter may be to save the VCA name; but a lot of people don't want VCA to be their club for various reasons, and have voted their feelings. I don't think that they will change their minds I believe that most of the remainder don't care what the name of their club is as long as they get to have some fun with other Viper owners. So, I see the best answer for all of the owners is a new club with no messy baggage. Unfortunately, this may leave a few people sitting on the sidelines although at a regional level, I think things would stay pretty much at a normal for everyone.

 

[Bobpantax]

Thanks for the post. We differ in that I see preserving the VCA as the best option. It takes less effort and with new Bylaws and leadership the VCA is renewed.

The speed at which the proposed new club made its proposal and started standing up is curious to me. I am starting to wonder whether the effort was started by some of those involved well before the Chrysler letter and while he/she/they were still Board members. If that was the case, I think we can all agree that with respect to anyone who may have done that, there was a clear violation of their duty, as a VCA Board member. For instance, I received an email from the proposed VOC a couple of weeks ago or so that was clearly a mass email. Where did they get the email address list from? I do not think that this is something that ordinary members have access to. Was this list obtained by a then Board VCA board member?

So, one conspiracy theory could be that the public release of the Chrysler letter was just one step in a series of preplanned steps to hurt the VCA and launch the VOC. Am I saying that this is what happened? No. But, it is hard for me to see any other motivation for releasing the letter publicly. The release certainly was embarrasing for Ralph, Chrysler, SRT, the VCA and many others. Chrysler made its requirements known in the letter. They were not that hard to fulfill. If the letter had not been released, I believe they probably would have been fulfilled and the s**t storm that we have experienced averted.

 

[flotter390]

Re: VCA Drama: what are the known facts?

Bobpantax
"So, one conspiracy theory could be that the public release of the Chrysler letter was just one step in a series of preplanned steps to hurt the VCA and launch the VOC. Am I saying that this is what happened? No. But, it is hard for me to see any other motivation for releasing the letter publicly. The release certainly was embarrasing for Ralph, Chrysler, SRT, the VCA and many others. Chrysler made its requirements known in the letter. They were not that hard to fulfill. If the letter had not been released, I believe they probably would have been fulfilled and the s**t storm that we have experienced averted."

With the kind of words that you spew out of that mouth of yours, I will never send a penny of mine to VCA as long as you are a MEMBER!!!

Fred

 

[ViperJohn]

What about the Marshalls? Will they still be involved in club OR club parts business?

They have offered to step away from everything if it would help the club. We are alredy shopping club management. We need to have transition plans in place, you can't just get rid of people and expect things to keep going. Interestingly enough, even the opposion has nothing bad to say about Mary and what a great job she has done running the club. I have also only heard positive experiences from the VA/MD members regarding their VPA experiences. Given the short amount of time (two weeks) we have been working at modifying/changing the club, we have been focusing on by law revisions getting a handle of current financial status and also figuring out what happened before our time that has lead us to where we are now.

I agree that a conflict of interests exists, we are working at resovling. I can only draw from my experience as a regional president. Getting people to step forward and help is difficult. Who will run VPA, who will run magazine and finally who will run the club? I don't know what events transpired years ago that got us where we are now, but I don't think these moves were made in the dark either.

 

[Bobpantax]

Hi Fred Enthusiast. Thank you for your 19 posts since 2009. I believe the words were typed. Not everybody likes everybody. That is life. Perhaps a site/club less tolerant of competing ideas/theories and polite debate is best for you.

 

[GRANGER73]

To the sale of VPA by the VCA...... The VPA is absolutely usseless without the supply agreement with MOPAR. If they decide to rescind that agreement, the VPA has little value.

 

[flotter390]

Hi Fred Enthusiast. Thank you for your 19 posts since 2009. I believe the words were typed. Not everybody likes everybody. That is life. Perhaps a site/club less tolerant of competing ideas/theories and polite debate is best for you.

Thank you for your kind advice. More poison.

Fred

 

[chorps]

Thanks for the post. We differ in that I see preserving the VCA as the best option. It takes less effort and with new Bylaws and leadership the VCA is renewed.

The speed at which the proposed new club made its proposal and started standing up is curious to me. I am starting to wonder whether the effort was started by some of those involved well before the Chrysler letter and while he/she/they were still Board members. If that was the case, I think we can all agree that with respect to anyone who may have done that, there was a clear violation of their duty, as a VCA Board member. For instance, I received an email from the proposed VOC a couple of weeks ago or so that was clearly a mass email. Where did they get the email address list from? I do not think that this is something that ordinary members have access to. Was this list obtained by a then Board VCA board member?

So, one conspiracy theory could be that the public release of the Chrysler letter was just one step in a series of preplanned steps to hurt the VCA and launch the VOC. Am I saying that this is what happened? No. But, it is hard for me to see any other motivation for releasing the letter publicly. The release certainly was embarrasing for Ralph, Chrysler, SRT, the VCA and many others. Chrysler made its requirements known in the letter. They were not that hard to fulfill. If the letter had not been released, I believe they probably would have been fulfilled and the s**t storm that we have experienced averted.

You should pause for moment and think back to when everyone was getting silence for all of their questions and speculating in the absence of any answers. You were the one who was always espousing to wait for answers and to not get wrapped up in idle speculation.

Now you're trying to undermine the efforts of others to start a more inclusive and open club by speculating that those people who were dumped or left in disgust were plotting against the VCA? If you have any questions you should ask them of the source.

This drama becoming even more paranoid.

 

[luc]

Hi Fred Enthusiast. Thank you for your 19 posts since 2009. I believe the words were typed. Not everybody likes everybody. That is life. Perhaps a site/club less tolerant of competing ideas/theories and polite debate is best for you.

A tolerant club? That's must be a joke.....Right? Do you remember the Magic Wands back in the early 2000? And all the posts being removed and peoples banned because voicing an opinion that the management did not like? . That went on until....... 2 or 3 weeks ago. Bob, you are starting to make a fool of yourself. Fred, don't worry, quite a few peoples would agree with you

 

[Bobpantax]

Interesting. How is the propsed new club more inclusive when the emails sent out on its behalf have been uniformly negative about the VCA and anyone who supports its continuing existence. Seems like the SOS in a different container to me. Also, where is the "new" leadership for the the proposed "new" club? Seems like a bunch of grey beards splitting off who, until recently, were part of the "old Board" for quite some time. A truely new, inclusive club would start off by not badmouthing the VCA or anyone who supports its continuing existence and have new, fresh leadership. If people cannot see that a few weeks of rhetoric by some of those who were long time VCA Board members does not offset the past years of participation, I feel sorry for them. They are naive. The way to care about the VCA and its 3000 members is to help the VCA redo the Bylaws; have the memberwide elections already discussed; and install new, fresh leadership in the National positions. The new Board has invited this in writing. Dan has already said that he does not wish to remain as President.

And, we have gotten some answers. Not all of them by any means. There should be more data disclosed. But the Board is made up of volunteers and they only have so much time.

You should pause for moment and think back to when everyone was getting silence for all of their questions and speculating in the absence of any answers. You were the one who was always espousing to wait for answers and to not get wrapped up in idle speculation.

Now you're trying to undermine the efforts of others to start a more inclusive and open club by speculating that those people who were dumped or left in disgust were plotting against the VCA? If you have any questions you should ask them of the source.

This drama becoming even more paranoid.

 

[Free2go]

Wow. I'm more confused now then when I started this thread. New ***, new bylaws, reinstated members...that's a great start. I think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bath water here. The VCA is a great site. People screwed up. Some of the truth came out. THIS SITE....THIS FORUM....THE VIPER...THE MEMBERS...are the VCA. Not a couple of tools who put their hand deep into the cookie jar. They are gone. Club is moving forward.

 

[TowDawg]

The "only so much time" excuse doesn't fly with the questions regarding the raffle that refuse to be answered.
Where was it held?
Where was it licensed?
Who drew it and who was present?
Who (regulatory authority) oversaw it?
Is there a record showing every ticket sold and where the money went?
Is there a record showing every purchased ticket was represented in the drawing (even those that purchasers never got, or got AFTER the drawing)?

 

[chorps]

Yet the truth only came out because of the 'other sites.' The banished who have long claimed that they were persecuted and railroaded out of the VCA turned out to be right in a lot of their accusations and insinuations, and they claim that the other shoe hasn't dropped yet.

Why is it only in the 11th hour has there been any reform at all? There is a lot of reason to distrust that the process of reform will go through, and there's a lot of burned bridges out there that the VCA put gasoline on, and threw the match. Putting the blame on the people who have left is just another convenient excuse to sweep things under the rug and claim that reform is coming.

Will TowDawg's simple query regarding where the raffle was held be answered? If not, why? How does that prove that the new exec is more open and transparent?