Vec3,LC-1's,Gauges!

[grcforce327]

Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

More wiring on a GenI and even more when you add 2 LC-1's and 2 gauges!Definitely worth it though!

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[Mr Hemi Head]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Nice work Guy but how can you see those meters while your driving? Are you a Little People? LOL

 

[grcforce327]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

I can see them okay(6' at 200lbs).Wanted something to eyeball for regular driving in case something is going on with either bank!

 

[Jack B]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

I have been running and logging with the Innovate product for over three years and you will find the gauges are eye candy. You cannot follow gauges when you are racing, you have to log. To make sense out of the log you need a/f, rpm, coolant temp and most importantly is the throttle position. Those parameters give you the ability to tune.

I am interested in your results can you give me some info. Can you set up the VEC to permanently log. In other words can you actuate and download from the cabin. What is the max log time on the VEC. Can you log the parameters I described above on the same graph.

 

[grcforce327]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Jack,what computer are you using to change parameters?The Vec can log 5 min., and will log anything wired into it.The gauges are just for normal driving as I'm not that anal about constantly logging my parameters.I want to enjoy the car and enjoy driving without issues.I don't think the gauges are eye candy if you're driving and all of a sudden one gauge reads 18a/f.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Jack,

I am interested in your results, can you give me some info?
Can you set the Innovate product to permanently log? max log time?
Can you actuate and down load from the cabin?
To what are you downloading to (laptop, limited only by drive space?)
Can you log parameters including a/f,rpm,coolant temp, air temp,throttle position and get it all on the same log?
Is it easy to actually do the tuning with the Innovate software?

Im about to order from Innovate and try to work with the Vec3 and will respond in kind as soon as it is up and running. I believe with the Vec3 we can get down to 500 rpm increments But we shall see.

Gr, nice gauges, I've seen that wire harness before (1973, ZZ Top TEJAS concert, it finally went away).

I understand that for those that are not racing you can at least monitor to see if you are operating within "normal" ranges. I had a discussion with BlueGTS (Aaron, nice, nice guy) and he has a set-up that he uses just to check when he is possibly "slipping" out of tune. He thinks that the single biggest factor requiring a tune (after he has tuned it to his perfection) is outside air temp. He is hoping VEC3's new capabilities will address this last big hurdle. Sean suggested to me last week that it does just that.

Also, conversations with Innovate suggests that they are about to release a firmware improvemnt for their XD-1 that will "switch" between two W/B...BUT, and I couldnt believe this one...It WONT tell you which bank you are looking at. Hard to believe, but true!

 

[snampro]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

it that mess what's required to wire in the VEC II or III? That's crazy, I thought it just plugged in...

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

No, no, no....that is for all his other devices (looks like a couple of wide bands, two guages, etc, etc.)

The Vec3 is now a single mini USB in to the Vec unit and a standard USB into your laptop. Its elegant and clean.

Jack, I'm still working on this but it looks like the RPM scale on the Vec3 is 250 and the max log time is 5 mins for any single session. Also, on the single graph of the mapping session are the following selectables, select them all if one would wish:

Analog 0-5V. The left or right Y-axis (side bar) will show the voltage scale of the sensor output.

Analog 0-100%. The voltage value will be expressed in a range of 0 (0 volt) to 100% (5 volt).

MPX US 3. The internal MAP sensor voltage will be expressed in inches of vacuum to PSI of boost.

MPX 2.5 Bar. The internal MAP sensor voltage will be expressed in absolute bar.

Viper MAP US. Displays the stock MAP sensor voltage in inches of vacuum.

Viper MAP Bar. Displays the stock MAP sensor voltage in absolute bar.

Ignition. Graphs ignition timing changes in positive (advance) and negative (retard).

Fuel. Graphs injector millisecond pulse changes in positive (adding fuel) and negative (reducing fuel).

Viper Stock A/F. Expresses the stock oxygen sensor voltage in an Air / Fuel ratio.

PWM. Displays the pulse width modulation output signal “on” time in milliseconds.

Power. A feature that displays the approximate horsepower being generated. Requires input for vehicle weight, gearing, etc in order to display properly.

Torque. A feature that displays the approximate torque being generated.

Speed. With proper input of the gearing ratio (factory Viper ratios inserted by default), the vehicle speed will be displayed on the graph. The gear the car was in at the time the log was made must be selected on the main Log window. You can change the selected gear accordingly when viewing a graph.

Accel. A feature that displays the approximate acceleration rate of the vehicle.

Fuel DC. The duty cycle the injectors are being driven in percent.

Fuel DC/100. The duty cycle the injectors are being driven, divided by 100.

Viper IAT (F or C). Displays the intake air temperature (when connected) that the stock sensor is reading.

Fuel trim %. The net percentage change to the injector pulse based on the IAT offset in the VEC3 program.

WB (NGK, AEM, Dynojet, LM1, LC1). A sensor definition for each wideband oxygen sensor that allows the graph shown to display the proper air / fuel ratio, based on the voltage being delivered to the VEC.

A first, full reading of the software manual reveals an exceptionally disciplined and well written document. This was a formidable subject for me and I was concerned that I was "crossing the tipping point". I am much less so after reading the materials and crusing the new programs. Software appears to be very intuitve and first walk throughs were flawless. Typical XP controls and well laid out tab systems. Sean must have a first class resource working on this release.

More to follow.

 

[grcforce327]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

it that mess what's required to wire in the VEC II or III? That's crazy, I thought it just plugged in...

Not to bad,just when you add 2 LC-1's and 2 gauges that adds alot more to the wiring.

 

[NoRice]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Sean must have a first class resource working on this release.

More to follow.

Good info you posted. From my research it appears the actual program is developed by another company (Civinco) and sold by Roe (with developmental input)in the US. Looking at their website it appears they develop these programs for a number of different applications under different names, but are all similar in functions.

Yankee,
You received your software from Roe already? I went ahead and ordered it also. Gonna take the plunge and learn this stuff also.

 

[NoRice]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Also, conversations with Innovate suggests that they are about to release a firmware improvemnt for their XD-1 that will "switch" between two W/B...BUT, and I couldnt believe this one...It WONT tell you which bank you are looking at. Hard to believe, but true!

You would manually have to switch the gauge to see the reading? So as along as you know which side is which you would know which bank it is currently reading, correct?

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

New firmware will oscillate automatically between the two banks.

 

[George Murray]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

That's a lot of parameters. It all seems pretty pferdestarke to me.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

pferdestarke.....I think there is a surgical proceedure for that.

 

[Jack B]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

GRCFORCE:

If you have any hp, time thru each gear is very short and there is no time to: shift; watch the tach; and also watch a poorly mounted hard to read second gauge. A/f even at wot bounces therefore, you are now trying to do calculations between shifts - it ain't going to happen you are fooling yourself - you have to log.

At other than wot, a/f is almost meaningless (except at idle) it ranges all over relative to load, rpm and throttle postion it is a multi-dimensional plot. I like the looks of my XD gauge and it has a built-in programable warning light, plus it contains an on/off switch to start a log, and that is what I use it for.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Jack,

Where is your gauge mounted? As I mentioned, it looks like the VEC3 can log for 5 mins, how long does your unit log for? Did those parameteres I listed out look about right to you, are you doing more?

 

[Jack B]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Dam Yankee:

"Can you set the Innovate product to permanently log? max log time?"
Mine is set up in the permanent mode. The LM3 can do about 35 minutes. The DL32 is unlimited since it has an SD card.

"Can you actuate and down load from the cabin?"
My XD gauge has a built in on/off switch to start/stop the log. On the LM3 you connect a serial cable to the module.My LM3 is above the the passenger's feet (against the underside of the dash) The DL32 has the SD card, so swap cards to retrieve the data.

"To what are you downloading to (laptop, limited only by drive space?)"
The files are small and they download directly to the hard drive.

"Can you log parameters including a/f,rpm,coolant temp, air temp,throttle position and get it all on the same log?"
All those parameters come from the PCM into the LM3 or DL32 and are sync'ed with the a/f and rpm on a single log. The LM3 has 6 channels and the DL32 has 32 channels.

Is it easy to actually do the tuning with the Innovate software?
The new Logworks software will actually populate an a/f map automatically, you then use the VEC2 to modify the a/f setting.

You do not need a dyno, I now do all my tuning from third gear runs. Both the LM2 and the DL32 have an integral accelerometer, therefore, you can make a change and log eveything against hp or torque. I actually log the a/f and timing against the slope of the rpm curve, this gives you the most accurate gauge of performance.

Here is what you need:

LM1 (a/f system)
LM3 or DL32 (recorder)
XD gauge (has on/off switch)

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Jack, Many thanks. That is one heck of a system, very fine!

For those interested:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTS_grid.php

Are you using one or two LC-1s and is it (are they) mounted in the header collector? Also, does the VEC3 internal 2.5 bar sensor (30" Hg vacume or 22 PSI boost)make a compelling enough reason for you to trade up or can you just continue to use the stock MAP sensors? Lastly, do find that 500 rpm increments are enough, or do you populate the full (doubled) 250 RPM tables?

NoRice, yes, received it, loaded it, running it and reading everything I can get my hands on. Looks pretty logical, though demanding. A few things become very clear. One needs to get the long term fuel trim adaptives correctly calibrated. As Jack has already mentioned, getting the engine as close to zero in closed-loop is where the game begins. After that its all about what happens at WOT and the use of the adaptives. Higher loads are where the work is done. Everything is essentially "stock" except when one gets on it, thens its A/F and spark advance. Glad to know you will be working on it too.

 

[grcforce327]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Adaptives set here(very simple)!Now waiting for the weather to break on the weekend to do some pulls!!!

 

[Jack B]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

"Are you using one or two LC-1s and is it (are they) mounted in the header collector?"

I am running a single LM1 and the sensor is mounted in the Balanger short transition pipe in the rear. I am going to change to the DL32 and add an LC1 this spring. O2 sensors like heat, but lose some accuracy when subjected to extreme temps.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Also, does the VEC3 internal 2.5 bar sensor (30" Hg vacume or 22 PSI boost)make a compelling enough reason for you to trade up or can you just continue to use the stock MAP sensors?"

I run NOS, therefore, it doesn't matter to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Lastly, do find that 500 rpm increments are enough, or do you populate the full (doubled) 250 RPM tables?"

You have to use the 250 rpm config to get the a/f flat

 

[grcforce327]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

GRCFORCE:

If you have any hp, time thru each gear is very short and there is no time to: shift; watch the tach; and also watch a poorly mounted hard to read second gauge. A/f even at wot bounces therefore, you are now trying to do calculations between shifts - it ain't going to happen you are fooling yourself - you have to log.

At other than wot, a/f is almost meaningless (except at idle) it ranges all over relative to load, rpm and throttle postion it is a multi-dimensional plot. I like the looks of my XD gauge and it has a built-in programable warning light, plus it contains an on/off switch to start a log, and that is what I use it for.

Let me repeat myself! While driving casually on a nice sunny day,cruising leasurely down the road,I look at the gauges and one says 14 to 1 and the other says 17 to 1.Hmmmmmmm,what do I do? The gauges are just for add protection incase something is not working properly and the "logging laptop" is at home.They are very small gauges that don't stick out like a "sore thumb".AS you can see,I do what "I" want to do with "my" car.It's great that your hobby is "data-logging" and I see nothing wrong with that!

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

GRC, Jack, what scan tool do you guys use to interfeace to the PCM to get the initial readings before the work to get the Long Term Fuel Trim Adaptives down to zero?

 

[grcforce327]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Any scanner that shows data!I use a Snap-on Solus.

 

[Jack B]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

I use the Ease with the enhanced parameters. I also have the AutoEnginuity that is loaded on a Pocket PC. It is coupled to the OBD port with a 100 ft range Bluetooth transmitter.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Re: Vec3,LC-1\'s,Gauges!

Many, many thanks, guys.

I just ordered the EASE. Your Pocket PC solution has been kicking around my head for the best part of a week. Dont know about the AutoEnginuity (Im on it now). Your "enhanced parameters" is the new internal Bar Pressure Sensor that can read 30” Hg vacuum to 22 PSI boost pressure within the manifold (VEC3)? At first I will double up on the laptops while setting the LTFA (one on the OBD2, one on the VEC). I figure I'll tweak the Vec carefully until we get to zero and then the fun begins.

Do you think most folks get what is actually going on with these VEC systems? I read through the materials and am blown away by how potentially huge this tool actually is for both the guy with a standard set-up and the heavy induction guys. A guy can walk into his garage in his best dress whites and tune his rig as if he has a dynoshop in his trunk. One, with skill and practice, comes away with a great tune, account for every nuance represented in his set-up and , best of all, know WHY his car is ready.

I would think that any person really interested in getting his car to run perfectly and, in doing so, protect his engine, would want to get these or a simular system. Building out the car is fun, but this tool is unbelievable and the process of learning how is VERY satisfying. I read about your 9 second cars and say to myself "I will understand this, all of this."

Thanks again.

P.S. Very kind member made a great case for 3.45 rear end today, thoughts?