VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Can anyone articulate the differences of the vipair and the advantage performance unit? It seems to offer the same "advantage", but it is 1/4 the cost.

So if there is a benefit it would seem that the advantage performance part is a better value.

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I know it's not scientific but I ordered a Vipair today and my GTS already seems a bit quicker especially at speed.

Shelby, so just by picking up the phone and ordering the Vipair you can already tell a difference??? Wow!!! Just think what it will do when you put it on the car.

That was the smart asp part of my post. About the filters and smooth tubes. What was the test standard that everyone accepted for the approx 10hp gain there? Serious question..........

 

[cgmaster]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I don't know if the vipair is a ram air device or just a cold air intake. The thing I have to state is that a ram air system that works will give good gains the faster you go. I know I have hit 180 before and 150 a few times. at these speeds you will definately have a gain if it works. It is almost imposible to test these gains on a dyno. But to check for cooler air intake temps is easy if you have a few simple tools. The best way to check to see if the ram air part works would be to put a pressure gauge in the intake before the filters and run it to a data logger on a laptop.

 

[J DAWG]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I know it's not scientific but I ordered a Vipair today and my GTS already seems a bit quicker especially at speed.

Shelby, so just by picking up the phone and ordering the Vipair you can already tell a difference??? Wow!!! Just think what it will do when you put it on the car.

That was the smart asp part of my post. About the filters and smooth tubes. What was the test standard that everyone accepted for the approx 10hp gain there? Serious question..........

uhhhh....dunno. 10hp. Really?(j/k) I just buy stuff for the looks. Now can I get one of these badboys powdercoated Sapphire.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Can anyone articulate the differences of the vipair and the advantage performance unit? It seems to offer the same "advantage", but it is 1/4 the cost.

So if there is a benefit it would seem that the advantage performance part is a better value.

The only place i have seen this product is on ebay,i tried to find the link to make available to view but could not find,please link if you have it.

 

[1TONY1]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

http://members.tripod.com/~advantageperformance/index-2.html

 

[dwhitt]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

For less than $50 I plan to try out the cheaper alternative from Advantage Performance. I'll do whatever I can to avoid the dreaded "Viper Tax".

 

[Matt M PA]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I too thought the entire "ram-air" debate was beaten to death. While I would agree that a cooler intake would certainly be, at least, an advantage, ram-air with fuel injection is worthless.

The drag racers are trying to get fuel injection approved for competition so that they can rid their cars of the ram-air type scoops needed for their carbureted cars. I know that the racers have tested and found that with fuel injection, ram-air proves to show at best a negligible effect.

Finally, as I understand it..the Viperair is a bolt in? For me, a drill+me+Viper= no! And..is the Vipair available in just plain black without the logos? I like a stealth look best.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I too thought the entire "ram-air" debate was beaten to death. While I would agree that a cooler intake would certainly be, at least, an advantage, ram-air with fuel injection is worthless.

The drag racers are trying to get fuel injection approved for competition so that they can rid their cars of the ram-air type scoops needed for their carbureted cars. I know that the racers have tested and found that with fuel injection, ram-air proves to show at best a negligible effect.

Finally, as I understand it..the Viperair is a bolt in? For me, a drill+me+Viper= no! And..is the Vipair available in just plain black without the logos? I like a stealth look best.

The vipair is avail. in stealth look and would take my wife 5 minutes to install with absolutly no modifications.And she still uses full service gas stations

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Isn't the advantage part a bolt on as well?

 

[ViperJoe]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Lets see a head to head dyno test! Vipeair / Advantage

Better yet...... a night at the strip results

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"How have the benefits of filters and smooth tubes been verified?"
I think at least one tuner says the tubes give you nothing.

Filters could give you something, however I wonder about the mid rpm improvement over a stock a filter that is good for 450hp at high rpm.
What I mean is, how can the stock filter be good for full rpm and then not pass all the air needed at say 3k rpm. I can see an improvement at high rpm but why would it make more hp at half rpm?

I have filters and tubes. The filters needed a change and the aftermarket filters were not that much more.
The tubes I bought because they look cool. Red filters, red engine.

Now here are two statements,
1."What makes this work is not air temp but air flow.We are providing a path of positive air flow."

2."The Vipair brings in cold air and the faster you go the more cold air you get."

So, when I asked about measuring the intake air vs. outside air they said it isn't a cool air device.

And when I asked about measuring the pressure, I received no answer.

So how is it supposed to work?

I'm with Viper_SRT when he says more or less that ram air at car speeds is a myth.

Bringing in cool air on a dyno isn't the same as bringing in cool air while blasting a hurricane of air all through the front of the car while driving on the highway at 60mph. Didn't someone post that they measured the intake air as being the same temp as outside while driving at highway speed?

As for measuring a small hp change on a dyno, I think the change is too small to reliably measure.

Since the dyno and drag stip runs are not a good way to measure the hp gain, due to uncontrolable variables, that only leaves pressure or temperature measurments. They are easy to do and I believe they have already been done.

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

What makes the tubes and filters work? In theory. How have any gains from tubes and filters been verified and by whom? I guess what I'm trying to understand is why a large majority of Viper owners have filters and smooth tubes and seem to accept that they produce worthwhile gains and at the same time seem to believe that Vipair or similar products are highly suspect. Every time a new owner asks about first mods on this or other forums they are told tubes and filters are a slam dunk. Seems to me tubes, filters and Vipair are addressing the same issue.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"How have the benefits of filters and smooth tubes been verified?"
I think at least one tuner says the tubes give you nothing.

Filters could give you something, however I wonder about the mid rpm improvement over a stock a filter that is good for 450hp at high rpm.
What I mean is, how can the stock filter be good for full rpm and then not pass all the air needed at say 3k rpm. I can see an improvement at high rpm but why would it make more hp at half rpm?

I have filters and tubes. The filters needed a change and the aftermarket filters were not that much more.
The tubes I bought because they look cool. Red filters, red engine.

Now here are two statements,
1."What makes this work is not air temp but air flow.We are providing a path of positive air flow."

2."The Vipair brings in cold air and the faster you go the more cold air you get."

So, when I asked about measuring the intake air vs. outside air they said it isn't a cool air device.

And when I asked about measuring the pressure, I received no answer.

So how is it supposed to work?

I'm with Viper_SRT when he says more or less that ram air at car speeds is a myth.

Bringing in cool air on a dyno isn't the same as bringing in cool air while blasting a hurricane of air all through the front of the car while driving on the highway at 60mph. Didn't someone post that they measured the intake air as being the same temp as outside while driving at highway speed?

As for measuring a small hp change on a dyno, I think the change is too small to reliably measure.

Since the dyno and drag stip runs are not a good way to measure the hp gain, due to uncontrolable variables, that only leaves pressure or temperature measurments. They are easy to do and I believe they have already been done.

My Statement was that we are claiming no cooler air than ambiant,which is all that can be possibly hoped for without actually having a cooling device.For some reason some people on this post have determined that we are selling a devise with no applicable use.One of the reasons we decided to make this was that it is an easily understood princible,affordable,appealing and easily installed.I have been in the viper buisiness for many years and am not about to put my reputation on the line for a useless product.I honestly think that all reasonable questions have been answered and positive benefits have been shown.I have also stated that anyone wishing to speak with me personally about this or any Viper topic or product i will be glad to spend the time doing so.Anyone here that has spoken with me personally will attest to the fact that i am very forthcomming and will spend as much time as nessesary explaining this or any other products.These cars are my passion.Almost obssesive in my life.I thoroughly enjoy speaking with owners and enthusiasts.For some reason on this product we feel that we are defending ourselves on a deceiving product.I feel that many customer testaments are forthcomming on this product and feel very comfortable in saying that will speak for the product.I am not a salesman by any means.you will notice that all of my post are in effort to assist owners and will never find hidden sales tactics in my statements.I am doing what i love here.I find myself among the view that can honestly say that.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Vipermed, I appreciate what you are trying to do. Can you compare and contrast your product againes the advantage product? On the surface they would seem to do the same thing.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Vipermed, I appreciate what you are trying to do. Can you compare and contrast your product againes the advantage product? On the surface they would seem to do the same thing.

As we do not have one of their products i cannot give an accurate comparison.What it appears to do is make a seal between the hood and box therby allowing airflow from the facia.I do however know that the vipair fits directly into the factory airbox therby channeling air directly to the filters instead of the general direction.Hope this helps as its the best i can do without actually having the advantage product.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Does anyone have one of these or is there any test data on the advantage product?

 

[Newport Viper]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Gen 1's have a factory Vipair.
If there was no advantage to this, why would DC spend the extra cash, to do this on the Gen 1's?

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Gen 1's have a factory Vipair.
If there was no advantage to this, why would DC spend the extra cash, to do this on the Gen 1's?

No NACA duct.

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"I honestly think that all reasonable questions have been answered and positive benefits have been shown"

I do understand that you believe what you are claiming. I do not think you are knowingly trying to sell a worthless product.

I do not believe that you have answered all reasonable questions.

I do not believe you have proof of any positive benefits.

I believe the dyno testing has not been done in a logical, scientific manner.

"vipair fits directly into the factory airbox therby channeling air directly to the filters instead of the general direction"

You state that cool air is not how Vipair works. The ram air theory remains the only explanation.

Ram air at car speeds has been discussed, here is a link to a discussion of ram air.
http://www.vetteguru.com/ramair/

If you have any scientific disagreement with the ram air article I would like to hear it.
I think this would be a "reasonable question".

If the Vipair device is a ram air device then one would be able to detect a pressure change in the airbox. Will Vipair cause a pressure change in the airbox?
Have you measured the pressure in the airbox?
I think this would be a "reasonable question".

I would be very interested in hearing about the testing that was done while developing this device.
The data and test methods would go a long way in explaining the benefits of the device.

Scientific testing under conditions designed to control non test related variables is often dificult.

How did you do it?

"I feel that many customer testaments are forthcomming on this product"

I'm sure that most if not all customers will be thrilled by the performance of your Vipair.
I would just like to hear about your developmental testing.

 

[ViperJoe]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

ah........ I was waiting for that ole Vette ram air debate to surface over here in Viperdom. Read many a page of that hotly debated topic. Kinda like the VarRam for the vette, that guy offers a money back guarantee with like 20-30 hp increase I think. I had on of those on the Z-06 and noticed (uh oh here we go) a seat of the pants "boost" starting at the midrange (the effects of the cool air and not the ram effect I surmise).

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe117,

You have a 94 Rt right? Do you realize that your car's intake is very similar to the Vipair? The Vipair supplements the NACA duct with fresh air from the front of the rad just like your stock airbox does. Chrysler had it right from 92 to 96 and then switched and now they are reverting back on the SRT10 as illustrated in the pictures above.

How do you think that the Dyno testing was not done logically? Can you logically back up this statement with fact or are you just speculating? What would you like as proof? Dyno sheets have been considered accurate proof on this forum until now. Why is the VIPAIR™ being held to a different standard than any other product on this board? What other product on this board was scientifically tested adn how were these dyno runs done differently from those done on the VIPAIR™? We do base line runs then change the part and do more runs and post a dyno graph illustrating the increase. What more would you like? Please be specific about how the test should be "scientifically" done and then you can be appeased, and then even though the part will never fit on your car, we can all move on.

On previous posts about this item respected Viper racers even chimed in to say that the racing GTSR's used a similar setup to the Vipair because of inadequacies in the stock air intake design. If this doesn't convince you along with actual dyno sheets what will?

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"Dyno testing was not done logically? Can you logically back up this statement with fact or are you just speculating?"

I contend that the Dyno testing was not done in a scientific manner because you failed to replicate the air flow of a moving car.

Your device is designed to work on the airflow of a moving car with the front wheels on the ground.

How would you replicate this condition on a dyno? I don't think you can.

The fan blowing on the front of the car isn't a good substitute because your device may introduce cool air from the fan.

If you are claiming that it introduces cool air, this can also be measured. I understand you are not claiming cool air introduction.

The very small percentage of increase you observe on the dyno, may be an artifact of the test procedure.

"What would you like as proof?"
I believe that you should be measuring the air pressure inside the airbox. If there is no pressure difference with and without Vipair, then your product isn't doing anything.

As far as dyno sheets being used, on this board, to demonstrate performance increases, The devices being tested were, as I recall, not likely to be affected by the dyno. Tests of superchargers, nitrous, cams or exhaust systems, may be conducted on a dyno without the test setup causing a change in the measurements of the device under test.

Further, the dyno is a poor choice when measuring small changes in a high horsepower engine.

I believe that you posted above that the dyno runs showed an improvement of 6hp to 24hp. How do you resolve the variation.

I believe that more than one person posted comments on the low initial readings you recorded on your test dyno. These low readings shouldn't be simply ignored. They could have been caused by lack of airflow. Your device could have improved this marginal situation, causing a slight increase in power. This increase under test might not cross over to an increase under road conditions.

Again, a pressure measurement of the air in the box, under road conditions, would resolve this. The pressure increase could be used to predict a performance increase in the same way atmospheric pressure is used in the calibration of a dyno.

I believe that these concerns are valid. I'm looking forward to your explanation of why they are not scientific and logical.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe,

We are claiming an introduction of cool air, we are just not claiming to cool the air more than the outside temperature as the Vipair™ simply directs outside air into the air box.

Joe the car I used was not my car it was from a local dealer, I could have used my 2000GTS but there are only 100 or so people out there with a ROE charger and there are thousands of people out there with close to stock cars that would like a few more ponies for cheap. This car was very weak in my opinion but nothing else changed except for the VIPAIR™ which you even conceed probably increased the airflow to the engine and thus helped create more power??? What the heck are we arguing about then?? Air pressure in the airbox??

What we need is someone with a 96 - 02 gen2 that has the equipment to measure the air pressure in the stock airbox with the VIPAIR™ and without the VIPAIR™, correct? If someone out there has the equipment and the time to test the items that Joe is asking for above I will promo that person a VIPAIR™, first come first serve!!

And then Joe can supply us with an equation for how the increase in airbox air pressure relates to horsepower, maybe we have been too conservative in our Hp claims.

Steve

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe,

"We are claiming an introduction of cool air, we are just not claiming to cool the air more than the outside temperature as the Vipair™ simply directs outside air into the air box."

Ok, then the test would be to measure air temp in the box and outside air temp. Do this on the road, with and without your device.


"This car was very weak in my opinion but nothing else changed except for the VIPAIR™ which you even conceed probably increased the airflow to the engine and thus helped create more power??? What the heck are we arguing about then??"

What I said was that your device may produce a small power increase when used on a dyno with a fan blowing on the car but that small increase may be an artifact of the test setup. It may not give the power increase on the road.

"What we need is someone with a 96 - 02 gen2 that has the equipment to measure the air pressure in the stock airbox with the VIPAIR™ and without the VIPAIR™, correct? If someone out there has the equipment and the time to test the items that Joe is asking for above I will promo that person a VIPAIR™, first come first serve!!"

This would be an excellent test.
Not only measure the pressure delta but the temp delta under road conditions, with and without the Vipair. That would cover everything.

"And then Joe can supply us with an equation for how the increase in airbox air pressure relates to horsepower, maybe we have been too conservative in our Hp claims.
Steve"

I believe this equation is available in table form. It is used to calibrate dyno measurements.

These measurements would prove the value of Vipair. Perhaps it would show a larger gain than you see on the dyno. Good luck.
If I invented the device, these measurements would have been a part of the R&D.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe117,

Thanks for your input, we already have our tester!

It's RUSSM.

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Yup.

I just ordered my Vipair will do all the testing. My testing will include airbox pressure before and after at various speeds.

And dyno testing before and after.

Stay tuned

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

OK Russ,
Glad to see that someone is going to make the measurements. How are you going to measure the pressure in the airbox?

 

[cgmaster]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I would also like to know what testing was done not just general data. I like to know where the numbers came from.

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

OK Russ,
Glad to see that someone is going to make the measurements. How are you going to measure the pressure in the airbox?

Simple really,

Much simpler than I first expected. Hooked up a PSI/vacum guage to the airbox and going to have a passanger write down the results while I blast down the 118 .

I will also do part throttle and such, now I just have to dig up an accurate PSI guage from my garage or in worst case pull one off another car.