VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Now we are getting somewhere...back to a dyno testing situation, which will show a horsepower gain!

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Ok back from the Dyno.

First some disclaimers, I am in no way trying to promote or bash anything. I just like to know the truth about products and my testing was more than fair and accurate.

A total of 11 pulls were made on the dyno, 5 with Vipair and 6 without 2 of which were just for show on how skewed you can make dyno jet results with a not properly controlled environment. The testing on the Vipair had 2 90 mph fans blowing into the facia and naca duct, along with a big low speed fan behind them.

First two pulls were with Vipair and they were not consistent so we did not use them as a base. They were both in 419-422hp range with 470lbs torque. I knew these numbers were low for my car so we continued to dyno.

Next three pulls started to act more like my car, on the average depending on the day my car makes 430-440rwhp. These pulls neted 431.4hp and 472.4 lb's torque, this was the best of the 3 but they were all within 1 hp of each other. That to me showed that the numbers were consistent enough to continue on.

Removed the Vipair and installed the factory cover back. First 2 pulls back in stock configuration were with the hood propped open in the front. Which resulted in 433.3hp and 480.9 lb's torque, the second of the two was virtually identical. The consistency showed that the numbers could be used.

We then decided to eat lunch and show once and for all how so many people get abnormaly high numbers when compared to others. The pulls from here on out were all made with the hood closed and a single 90mph fan blowing into the naca duct. About 20 min later we started the car again with the water temp around 170 made a pull the results were 445.6hp and 490.5lb's torque, we instanty made another pull which showed 442hp and 483.3 lb's torque. The water temp by the end of second pull was approaching 190. This is how you can get serious hp numbers out of your car, but then again who wants to see numbers you will never be able to replicate on the street.

On our final pull we got the car back to opperating temperature to make sure all the dyno testing we did would hold water and sure enough 431.2 hp and 476.6 lb's torque was made with the hood closed.

As you can see by the results the Vipair did not show any gains in power this is exactly what I said would happen after my last batch of air pipe testing for the viper.

Please do not get upset, I am just passing on my results which btw ended up consting me another 1 hour on the dyno.

All testing was done at R&D dyno, with several on lookers.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

RussM,
I believe the comparison tests should have been done exactly the same. Both with a hot engine compartment, the fans on, with the hood CLOSED.

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

RussM,
I believe the comparison tests should have been done exactly the same. Both with a hot engine compartment, the fans on, with the hood CLOSED.

So do I, and that is exactly what I did.

Only 2 pulls were made with the hood propped open, and from dyno experience that I have with Vipers I know doing this does not alter hp numbers.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

If your tests were exact then a dyno does not replicate a car traveling through the air. The former racing GTSRs, Gen Is, SRTs and CCs are designed to draw cooler outside ambient air from the fascia versus underhood heated air for a reason. I'm keeping my VIPAIR and the extra power I know it provides.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Russ,

Thanks for doing some scientific testing. I think you went beyond the call of duty and did a great unbiased job.

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

If your tests were exact then a dyno does not replicate a car traveling through the air. The former racing GTSRs, Gen Is, SRTs and CCs are designed to draw cooler outside ambient air from the fascia versus underhood heated air for a reason. I'm keeping my VIPAIR and the extra power I know it provides.

Umm, ok whatever you say.

I am glad you are keeping your Vipair, after all maybe I am just an evil individual who is hell bent on leather to destroy the Vipair product.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

If your tests were exact then a dyno does not replicate a car traveling through the air. The former racing GTSRs, Gen Is, SRTs and CCs are designed to draw cooler outside ambient air from the fascia versus underhood heated air for a reason. I'm keeping my VIPAIR and the extra power I know it provides.

Umm, ok whatever you say.

I am glad you are keeping your Vipair, after all maybe I am just an evil individual who is hell bent on leather to destroy the Vipair product.

RussM,
I don't question your integrity at all and appreciate the testing you did. However, I believe a wind tunnel is necessary for a proper test. DC would not have incurred the cost of the front fascia air channels in the SRT unless there was a performance enhancing benefit.

 

[dwhitt]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Uh-oh, guess my set up from Advantage performance may not fair much better. I plan to test that one at the drag strip rather than the dyno. Thanks for your comprehensive dyno work.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Ok back from the Dyno.

First some disclaimers, I am in no way trying to promote or bash anything. I just like to know the truth about products and my testing was more than fair and accurate.

A total of 11 pulls were made on the dyno, 5 with Vipair and 6 without 2 of which were just for show on how skewed you can make dyno jet results with a not properly controlled environment. The testing on the Vipair had 2 90 mph fans blowing into the facia and naca duct, along with a big low speed fan behind them.

First two pulls were with Vipair and they were not consistent so we did not use them as a base. They were both in 419-422hp range with 470lbs torque. I knew these numbers were low for my car so we continued to dyno.

Next three pulls started to act more like my car, on the average depending on the day my car makes 430-440rwhp. These pulls neted 431.4hp and 472.4 lb's torque, this was the best of the 3 but they were all within 1 hp of each other. That to me showed that the numbers were consistent enough to continue on.

Removed the Vipair and installed the factory cover back. First 2 pulls back in stock configuration were with the hood propped open in the front. Which resulted in 433.3hp and 480.9 lb's torque, the second of the two was virtually identical. The consistency showed that the numbers could be used.

We then decided to eat lunch and show once and for all how so many people get abnormaly high numbers when compared to others. The pulls from here on out were all made with the hood closed and a single 90mph fan blowing into the naca duct. About 20 min later we started the car again with the water temp around 170 made a pull the results were 445.6hp and 490.5lb's torque, we instanty made another pull which showed 442hp and 483.3 lb's torque. The water temp by the end of second pull was approaching 190. This is how you can get serious hp numbers out of your car, but then again who wants to see numbers you will never be able to replicate on the street.

On our final pull we got the car back to opperating temperature to make sure all the dyno testing we did would hold water and sure enough 431.2 hp and 476.6 lb's torque was made with the hood closed.

As you can see by the results the Vipair did not show any gains in power this is exactly what I said would happen after my last batch of air pipe testing for the viper.

Please do not get upset, I am just passing on my results which btw ended up consting me another 1 hour on the dyno.

All testing was done at R&D dyno, with several on lookers.

Could we see some dyno posting please.our could you send your results to us.And reguarding your "fair and accurate testing"well i believe it to be a nobrainer that an unbiased result was doomed from the start.You have made quite a few statements and post with regard to this and all aftermarket airboxes producing 0 benefits or gains.So for you to eat crow and say you had positive findings quite frankly would have surprised me but thanks for your time and sorry you had to spend an extra hour at the dyno.........Scott

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I find it amusing that finally we have a third party do some testing, in what appears to be a very scientific fashion, and now the manufacturers of the product come back bashing. Nothing to back up the claims, just bashing.

Isn't this what they and most others wanted?

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Scott,

Thanks for your kind reply, and yes this is exactly what I said would happen since my time spent on the dyno with the Vipair product exceeds that of the people who promote and sell it, I think it is you who needs to eat crow.

All I did was test, if you dont believe me call R&D and speak with the owner who was helping me. If you dont believe him than call DC performance since they dyno there all the time.

I dont care if you believe me or not, all that is important is that the would be customers believe me. Sorry if my results are not in your favor, but perhaps next time before you make a product you test it for yourself and then post claims? Dont know just a thought.

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Scott,

Almost forgot,

Yes I have dyno sheets I can fax to you and I have pictures of the car on the dyno so you can see exactly how the fans were set up.

Give me your fax number and I will send you the dyno sheets if you like.

If you dont believe my dyno sheets you can call R&D, I will tell the owner that it is ok to release my dyno information to you.

Fair enough? I dont know what else to offer.

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Scott,

The reason why I said airboxes will give you no to negative gains is not because of how I felt about them.

It is because I went out and dyno tested, I know it is not something you do but unlike you I like to see gains not imagine them.

 

[Jack B]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Vipermed:

Let me start by saying I like the idea and will do something similar. On the other hand you are basically calling Russ a liar because of the results he ended up with. It seemed as though he extended himself to find out what it would do on his car. Why not wait and see what others come up with before the name calling starts.

I would buy your unit however, I have the cones and a mass of NOS plumbing fitted into the tubes, plus a plate above the radiator that keeps the hot air out of the cone intake plane. In others words I don't use a stock airbox and I have too much time invested in my intake setup. Is their anything stopping me from using your unit to direct the fascia air towards the cones?

If I can get the vipeair to fit and function with my setup I will dyno it for you in both NA and NOS modes.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Scott,

Almost forgot,

Yes I have dyno sheets I can fax to you and I have pictures of the car on the dyno so you can see exactly how the fans were set up.

Give me your fax number and I will send you the dyno sheets if you like.

If you dont believe my dyno sheets you can call R&D, I will tell the owner that it is ok to release my dyno information to you.

Fair enough? I dont know what else to offer.

Thanks Russ.Please understand it is not my intentions to start any name calling,bashing or otherwise.We all are inthusiast for the same car.Believe it our not we did not just make this on a whim and cross our fingers and hope it would take.I do thank you for the time you spent on testing our product.

 

[Nexus-6]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Russ,

Thanks for doing some scientific testing. I think you went beyond the call of duty and did a great unbiased job.

Ditto.

I'll buy one when someone else shows me data to support the claims. I'd really like to see (maybe it's already been done?) some back to back pulls at the strip with and without on the same evening in this same manner.

I don't doubt that the thing can/will work - I just need to see it first.

To date, Russ has provided data to the contrary, AND at his cost, that appears as unbiased as it possibly can be with 11 pulls.

For now, I'll save my lunch money for track days.

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

So where do we stand?

Vipermed has been kind enough to supply Russ with a Vipair to be used for testing.
Russ has performed three test sessions.
1. SOTP feel.
2. Airbox pressure measurements.
3. Dyno comparison testing.

What are the results.
1. Russ claims that he can feel no improvement at all with Vipair.

2. Airbox pressure does not increase with Vipair, even at speeds up to 120mph.

3. Dyno runs done in a apparently logical manner, show no gain from Vipair.

The data seems, to me, to be consistent with what I would expect. I believe Russ has done a good job and that he has tried to be as scientific and logical as possible with the test equipment available.


Unfortunately Scott, the vendor of Vipair has not maintained the scientific, experimental tone of the discussion. Scott has accused Russ of being biased.
He said,

"fair and accurate testing"well i believe it to be a nobrainer that an unbiased result was doomed from the start.You have made quite a few statements and post with regard to this and all aftermarket airboxes producing 0 benefits or gains.So for you to eat crow and say you had positive findings quite frankly would have surprised me

This is indeed unfortunate. As an observer, I am beginning to detect a desire on Scott's part, to deny the validity of what appear to be reasonable findings based on hard data.

I do believe Russ's data. It is what I expected to see. It is consistent with what was predicted by a review of the posted article on "ram air".
Even if the small increase in hp claimed were true, one wouldn't expect to feel a large SOTP gain as claimed by Vipair.

So where are we?
A. We have hard data that shows Vipair to be of no value.

B. We have the vendor of Vipair claiming that the testing was biased.

C. The vendor has little data to back up his claims.

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

So where do we stand?

Vipermed has been kind enough to supply Russ with a Vipair to be used for testing.
Russ has performed three test sessions.
1. SOTP feel.
2. Airbox pressure measurements.
3. Dyno comparison testing.

What are the results.
1. Russ claims that he can feel no improvement at all with Vipair.

2. Airbox pressure does not increase with Vipair, even at speeds up to 120mph.

3. Dyno runs done in a apparently logical manner, show no gain from Vipair.

The data seems, to me, to be consistent with what I would expect. I believe Russ has done a good job and that he has tried to be as scientific and logical as possible with the test equipment available.


Unfortunately Scott, the vendor of Vipair has not maintained the scientific, experimental tone of the discussion. Scott has accused Russ of being biased.
He said,

"fair and accurate testing"well i believe it to be a nobrainer that an unbiased result was doomed from the start.You have made quite a few statements and post with regard to this and all aftermarket airboxes producing 0 benefits or gains.So for you to eat crow and say you had positive findings quite frankly would have surprised me

This is indeed unfortunate. As an observer, I am beginning to detect a desire on Scott's part, to deny the validity of what appear to be reasonable findings based on hard data.

I do believe Russ's data. It is what I expected to see. It is consistent with what was predicted by a review of the posted article on "ram air".
Even if the small increase in hp claimed were true, one wouldn't expect to feel a large SOTP gain as claimed by Vipair.

So where are we?
A. We have hard data that shows Vipair to be of no value.

B. We have the vendor of Vipair claiming that the testing was biased.

C. The vendor has little data to back up his claims.

No flame intended here Joe, but you come off as having an agenda of your own. There seems to be a inordinate focus on Vipair and Scott, especially since your Gen 1 isn't even a candidate for this mod. How about smooth tubes and filters? Do you have them on your car and have you made the same investigation into the claims made by vendors of these mods? If so, I would like to see how these were documented as I have asked this question several times and nobody seems to want to address it. I don't have any stock in Vipair and am not a personal friend of Scott's, but there seems to be a double standard here. I like the after market guys out there looking for ways to improve an already great car. I also do agree that we don't need to be spending money on mods that don't work. I don't have a technical opinion on Vipair but Scott does not impress me as someone who would hype a product that was worthless. He could be wrong but I don't believe he is knowingly wrong. Again, I don't know Scott, only have talked to him once, but from reading his responses to posts on this and other threads, I like him as a tuner and after market product developer. How many businesses offer a money back guarantee on all their products?

 

[jason427]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I agree with the previous post.

I want to see some track results. I bet the cooler air does help in this aspect. I don't think Scott ever said it would produce a ram air effect, so I don't know why that is even brought up.
Anyway, just my opinion

Jason

 

[jrkermode]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Russ,

My post was poorly written. As you have clarified, I meant to say you felt the observed pressures were not meaningful.

Excellent comment regarding the rain drains. Any pressure increase in the stock box is likely to leak out.

P.S. Some mention has been made of the HP claims for filters and smooth tubes. I believe it is Dodge who made the 10HP claim for these mods. That doesn't necessarily make it true, but in light of the Mustang and Miata HP fiascos, there appears to be a strong incentive for Manufacturers to get it right.

P.P.S. There have also been references in this thread to the airboxes on the factory racecars. Keep in mind these cars were optimized for Le Mans and Daytona, very high speed tracks. What works there may be imperceptible at lower speeds.

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I agree with the previous post.

I want to see some track results. I bet the cooler air does help in this aspect. I don't think Scott ever said it would produce a ram air effect, so I don't know why that is even brought up.
Anyway, just my opinion

Jason

You are correct Jason.It has been said and proven long ago that ram air on a vipair oops viper is a fruitless effort

 

[BruceW]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Someone needs to put a dyno inside a wind tunnel. Those test results would convince me once and for all.

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Shelby,
As you suspect, I do have an agenda. My agenda is to find the truth through measurements.

The reason for the focus on the Vipair device is simply that this thread concerns the Vipair device.

If you do not accept these obvious explanations, let me know and I will go over it again.

Since you asked about tubes and filters, I will repeat what I said earlier in this thread, by the way, how much of this did you read before posting? I do have tubes and filters on my Viper. As I said, I needed filters, I bought the filters from Roe and he had a sale on the tubes if you bought filters. I think the tubes look nice. That's why I have them. Perhaps they give some gain, I don't care. I needed filters and chose the aftermarket filters. Perhaps they give some gain, I don't care.
This discussion is about Vipair. The value of tubes and filters isn't the topic.

If you do not accept this obvious explanation, let me know and I will go over it again.


I agree with you that Scott isn't trying to knowingly sell a worthless product.
However, the independent testing that has been done to date shows no increase in power on the dyno, no SOTP increase and no increase in pressure in the intake.

The pressure in the intake was measured because Scott claimed that the Vipair would channel air into the box and produce a slightly higher pressure.
I'm sure that Scott believes that he is correct even though he has not tested this himself.
Again, the independent testing proved otherwise.

Claims of bringing cooler air into the box, cooler than it would receive without Vipair, remain to be validated. Independent testing has not been done and Scott has not tested this himself.

Claims of a SOTP increase that "feel's like 50hp" have yet to be demonstrated. Scott has tested this and made his claims. The independent testing, again, fails to see any SOTP increase.

There are only two ways this device can produce more power. Pressure increase due to ram air and introduction of cooler air.
There is to date no proof of either.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Doesn't the data that Russ compiled show that there is no gain due to lower temeperature air? With the fans blowing ambient air at 90mph wouldn't that show an improvement vis-a-vis lower temperatures?

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

So what was it that they said?

"an increase of about 16 RWHP and 16 RWTQ"

"While this result was exciting the best part was the drive home as the car felt like it had picked up an extra 50 RWHP, all the extra cold air was doing its job."

"This product will really win bragging rights on the track in MPH results,once you channel 100mph airflow properly great things happen"

"I will put my money where my mouth is and reimburse you for your shipping back to me if you do not like the vipair, the dyno only shows a small amount of the gain, i can guarantee you you will feel the seat of the pants difference with this thing,"

"I have received reports back from various people who have dyno tested this and the results have varied from 6.5 rwhp to almost 24 rwhp"

"Plain and simple this product provides a pressurized path of air flow directly to your motor,the faster you go the better it flows"

"we are not saying we are dropping temps more than ambiant air.What makes this work is not air temp but air flow.We are providing a path of positive air flow"

"we along with our customers found great benefit to this piece.and we decided to make one affordable for those that wanted to stay with the factory airbox but have the benefit of the extra airflow."

"I honestly think that all reasonable questions have been answered and positive benefits have been shown"

"What we need is someone with a 96 - 02 gen2 that has the equipment to measure the air pressure in the stock airbox with the VIPAIR™ and without the VIPAIR™, correct? If someone out there has the equipment and the time to test the items that Joe is asking for above I will promo that person a VIPAIR™, first come first serve!!"

"The VIPAIR™ actually allows your car to breath in cold pressurized air from in front of the radiator."

"Now we are getting somewhere...back to a dyno testing situation, which will show a horsepower gain!"

Russ, "reguarding your "fair and accurate testing"well i believe it to be a nobrainer that an unbiased result was doomed from the start.You have made quite a few statements and post with regard to this and all aftermarket airboxes producing 0 benefits or gains.So for you to eat crow and say you had positive findings quite frankly would have surprised me"

"Thanks Russ.Please understand it is not my intentions to start any name calling,bashing or otherwise."

"It has been said and proven long ago that ram air on a vipair oops viper is a fruitless effort"

 

[GARY J]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Russ,
I think the one last thing to test would be intake temp with and without. BTW Thanks for taking the time to test this product. Looks like it is pretty clear how effective it really is.

 

[Shelby3]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe said:

Shelby,
As you suspect, I do have an agenda. My agenda is to find the truth through measurements.

The reason for the focus on the Vipair device is simply that this thread concerns the Vipair device.

Joe, If you have an agenda to to find truth through measurements, please post on my new thread regarding tubes and filters. I really would like to know of these products have been researched with the same focus applied to the Vipair and if so, what the results were. Picking on only one air intake mod and challenging it's performance gains while using another product that claims performance gains only because it looks good doesn't advance your claim as crusader for the truth through measurements.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"Joe, If you have an agenda to to find truth through measurements, please post on my new thread regarding tubes and filters. I really would like to know of these products have been researched with the same focus applied to the Vipair and if so, what the results were. Picking on only one air intake mod and challenging it's performance gains while using another product that claims performance gains only because it looks good doesn't advance your claim as crusader for the truth through measurements."

Really? Why not? He isn't using tubes/filter for its gains, he is using it for looks. If someone thinks that the Vipair is worth $200 because it looks good than that is fine, and no-one will dispute that.

 

[CHAD]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Wow, this is an awefully long thread to discuss the benefits of a "cold air intake." The Vette threads about CAI's don't usually even go on this long. And that is most of what they talk about, aside from Zaino of course.

Chad