Viper Black Boxes (Crash data recorder)

[Mopar Boy]

Do Vipers have black boxes? If so what year did they start being installed?

Another question. If the boxes are to start recording data as of X amount of registered G force, how does that work with the Viper being able to pull very high G numbers while not in an accident (like driving on a track in a new ACR for example).

I remember reading the new Vettes were having the issue and then their On Star system woiuld contact them asking if they were hurt!

Just wondering how it works on the snake.

Thanks!

Robert

 

[Martin]

Good question - I believe most cars with airbags these days save the data just before an airbag is deployed. I never thought about it much, though.

 

[BlknBlu]

Big Brother is watching.

Bruce

 

[Bandit3]

Anything the government puts in.. can be taken out.

 

[Steve-Indy]

While I cannot answer your question as it pertains to a given make or model, here is
a small part from one on my posts in an airbag thread which may lead you in the right direction:

" ...little "light reading"... here is a good place to START:

1. " Forensic Biomechanics: Using Medical Records to Study Injury Mechanisms" by Jeffrey A. Pike, 2008 SAE

2. "Safety: Rear Impact, Rollover, Side Impact, Crashworthiness, Air Bags and Bumper Systems", 2007 SAE

3. "Event Data Recorders: A Decade of Innovation" by H. Clay Gabler et al, 2008 SAE"

From this thread:


http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-srt10-coupe-discussions/620829-air-bag-safety-belts.html

I found reference #3 particularly interesting...suggest that you order said books!!!

 

[propsail]

http://forums.viperclub.org/sneaky-petes-place/595992-vehicle-blackbox-info-long.html

As an update to this thread I wrote, up to today and for the immediate future, the data from black boxes in Vipers are not downloadable nor can the data be read by the public or government (read: police) or investigators. Do a search for black boxes for other discussions on this topic.

Craig

 

[Flash1034]

I am a certfied CDR (Collision Data Recorder) operator and can tell you all years of Vipers through model year 2009 are not supported by the software and therefore are not downloadable. Now, that may change at a later date with software updates. Also, the data is stored in the car and can still recovered by Chrysler if they wanted to. FYI.

Flash

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

I am a certfied CDR (Collision Data Recoder) operator and can tell you all years of Vipers through model year 2009 are not supported and therefore not downloadable. Now, that may change at a later date. Also, the data is stored in the car and can be recovered by Chrysler if they want to. FYI.

Flash

Thanks for an honest answer from someone who knows instead of some theory or assumption.

 

[FastZilla]

So what fuse do we have to pull to delete the data?

I am a certfied CDR (Collision Data Recoder) operator and can tell you all years of Vipers through model year 2009 are not supported and therefore not downloadable. Now, that may change at a later date. Also, the data is stored in the car and can be recovered by Chrysler if they want to. FYI.

Flash

 

[Mopar Boy]

I am a certfied CDR (Collision Data Recoder) operator and can tell you all years of Vipers through model year 2009 are not supported and therefore not downloadable. Now, that may change at a later date. Also, the data is stored in the car and can be recovered by Chrysler if they want to. FYI.

Flash

Thanks for the detailed answer!

Could you please elaborate on the term "not supported". What does that exactly mean? Does it mean the box is in there but not fully recording the data?

So what fuse do we have to pull to delete the data?

I somehow thought the data was non tamperable......

Robert

 

[fireball]

Reason #4567 to buy a Viper instead of a Corvette.

G

 

[propsail]

I am a certfied CDR (Collision Data Recoder) operator and can tell you all years of Vipers through model year 2009 are not supported and therefore not downloadable. Now, that may change at a later date. Also, the data is stored in the car and can be recovered by Chrysler if they want to. FYI.

Flash

I agree, and I'm also a CDR operator and analyst. The data in various vehicles can be downloaded by a crash data retrieval system. Being "supported" is lingo for being listed as a make and model of vehicle that has data that can be downloaded by the system. The Viper is not on that list; therefore it is not "supported."

It's suprising to have two technicians on the board. We're not a large group...yet.

Craig

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

I agree, and I'm also a CDR operator and analyst. The data in various vehicles can be downloaded by a crash data retrieval system. Being "supported" is lingo for being listed as a make and model of vehicle that has data that can be downloaded by the system. The Viper is not on that list; therefore it is not "supported."

It's suprising to have two technicians on the board. We're not a large group...yet.

Craig

So what this means is that a standard data retrieval system cannot download the crash data, but if it is "needed" the box could be sent to Chrysler and they could do it? Does that ever happen? Is this kind of like "it's not Windows and the authorities don't do Linux ... yet?"

 

[Mopar Boy]

So, if it is not supported, why install them? Save the weight.

So, to answer my own question, likely because it is law.

So if it is law that they be installed, it is NOT law that they must be downloaded? Odd. I must have it wrong.

Robert

 

[Flash1034]

So, if it is not supported, why install them? Save the weight.

So, to answer my own question, likely because it is law.

So if it is law that they be installed, it is NOT law that they must be downloaded? Odd. I must have it wrong.

Robert

The short answer is that the data is part of the airbag system and in some cars, the stability control systems. There is not one magic "black box" that stores the data, instead its the data used by the already existing aforementioned systems. Think of the data running through these systems as being in a continuous loop. When a collision of sufficient magnitude occurs, the components store the data that triggered the activation (or near activation) what we call a "pre-deployment event." On later modules, once the module has activated the airbags, it locks the data in the module and cannot be erased. On older airbag control modules, the data can be areased if there is power to the module causing the continuous loop buffer to replace the data that deployed the airbags. In short, all cars that have airbags have the data in them but most are not supported by the software that allows someone to retrieve and analyze the data. Hope this helps, Oh, and BTW, after model year 2012, all manufacturers will be required to standardize the data available from the modules and make the codes so one can read the data available to outside sources (ie: law enforcement, etc). This wording is vague because the actual statute is vague and will surely evolve over time. Big Brother most certainly is coming to our cars.

Flash

 

[Mopar Boy]

Gotcha! Thanks!

Robert

 

[bluesrt]

got a question,the acr has a rear wing on it,if u mount wings on the side,like lets say from a cesna or something,maybe u could get a black box crash code then?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The short answer is that the data is part of the airbag system and in some cars, the stability control systems. There is not one magic "black box" that stores the data, instead its the data used by the already existing aforementioned systems. Think of the data running through these systems as being in a continuous loop. When a collision of sufficient magnitude occurs, the components store the data that triggered the activation (or near activation) what we call a "pre-deployment event." On later modules, once the module has activated the airbags, it locks the data in the module and cannot be erased. On older airbag control modules, the data can be areased if there is power to the module causing the continuous loop buffer to replace the data that deployed the airbags. In short, all cars that have airbags have the data in them but most are not supported by the software that allows someone to retrieve and analyze the data. Hope this helps, Oh, and BTW, after model year 2012, all manufacturers will be required to standardize the data available from the modules and make the codes so one can read the data available to outside sources (ie: law enforcement, etc). This wording is vague because the actual statute is vague and will surely evolve over time. Big Brother most certainly is coming to our cars.

Flash

Sorry to repeat, but I'll be "obvious" in my question.

Someone has a Viper, is driving at a closed loop course in Mexico, swerves to miss an endangered animal in the road, hits telephone pole and airbags deploy. Police come, are upset about condition of telephone pole, so look at box but can't download data. They send the box to Dodge with a request to download and provide data.

Can and does the last sentence happen?

 

[bluesrt]

unless there are cameras all over the car and roads,who can tell if ur stupid driver or a innocent accident took place.the car is not a airplane..

 

[Flash1034]

Sorry to repeat, but I'll be "obvious" in my question.

Someone has a Viper, is driving at a closed loop course in Mexico, swerves to miss an endangered animal in the road, hits telephone pole and airbags deploy. Police come, are upset about condition of telephone pole, so look at box but can't download data. They send the box to Dodge with a request to download and provide data.

Can and does the last sentence happen?

Yes. It can and does happen. In fact, recent Chrysler modules have the most data of any so far.

Flash

 

[propsail]

Sorry to repeat, but I'll be "obvious" in my question.

Someone has a Viper, is driving at a closed loop course in Mexico, swerves to miss an endangered animal in the road, hits telephone pole and airbags deploy. Police come, are upset about condition of telephone pole, so look at box but can't download data. They send the box to Dodge with a request to download and provide data.

Can and does the last sentence happen?

Perfect example, and yes. I've done it myself in fatality investigations.Owner permission or a search warrant is required for us law enforcement types to do this.. HOWEVER, the manufacturer can refuse to do the download, and they have (usually their lawyers are involved at that point). I've had more manufacturers refuse rather than assist.

Craig

 

[AviP]

Thanks for all the info. I see more reasons to like Gen I/II.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

unless there are cameras all over the car and roads,who can tell if ur stupid driver or a innocent accident took place.the car is not a airplane..

I can see a post in your future...

i had a innocent accident and da cops telling me "ur a stupid driver cuz we got the evidence dat u were flyin!"

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Perfect example, and yes. I've done it myself in fatality investigations.Owner permission or a search warrant is required for us law enforcement types to do this.. HOWEVER, the manufacturer can refuse to do the download, and they have (usually their lawyers are involved at that point). I've had more manufacturers refuse rather than assist.

Craig

What have been the reasons they refuse, if you are allowed to say.

 

[eucharistos]

What have been the reasons they refuse, if you are allowed to say.

i imagine potential evidence that the car somehow contributed to the wreck and fatality

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

i imagine potential evidence that the car somehow contributed to the wreck and fatality

eucharistos, I thought that too, but after a while it seemed to me that should only be a minority, not a majority of the time. So I asked the question - hopefully Propsail has a response.

Thought of something else, too. A law enforcement official needs a subpeona to gather the evidence, but is it illegal for the owner to remove this data box? Or is it illegal to destroy it? I'm all for catching stupid drivers, but right now it feels like getting your wife to testify against you.

 

[eucharistos]

eucharistos, I thought that too, but after a while it seemed to me that should only be a minority, not a majority of the time.

figured you already thought of it tom,

i'm not much good past the obvious

 

[propsail]

eucharistos, I thought that too, but after a while it seemed to me that should only be a minority, not a majority of the time. So I asked the question - hopefully Propsail has a response.

Thought of something else, too. A law enforcement official needs a subpeona to gather the evidence, but is it illegal for the owner to remove this data box? Or is it illegal to destroy it? I'm all for catching stupid drivers, but right now it feels like getting your wide to testify against you.

Hi Tom,

It's true that the reason we are given for refusal to cooperate is the potential liability to the manufacturer. The number of accidents that are serious enough for us to warrant a download are only a fraction of the total number of accidents we investigate, and we investigate about 140 crashes per month. Probably 1 in a 500 require a download . The % of those accidents that require a download where we need to contact the manufacturer is probably less than 5%, so it's not that often. When it does happen, they are often less than enthusiastic to assist.

It's true that we need, not a supeona, but a search warrant or owner permission to access the data. If it's illegal for the owner to tamper with the devices,and I'm not saying it is, it must be a federal violation, because it's not a State law. Like Flash said, the data module is connected to several systems in your vehicle. Removing it is really not a feasible option. Hope this helps.

Craig

 

[plumcrazy]

This is very scary to me. Not cause I drive fast either. Ìts a step towards big brother in a very real way.

 

[propsail]

This is very scary to me. Not cause I drive fast either. Ìts a step towards big brother in a very real way.

no argument from me, but if you look at it another way and some **** hit you, wouldn't it be nice to have this kind of evidence to prove he was driving like an a-hole? Or that guy you accidentally hit slightly could not possibly have sustained the extreme injuries he was claiming because you were only going 25mph? It does work both ways. It can also corroborate your claim of innocence.

craig