Viper gts 1996 won’t start

[Andrews]

Hi all.
I’m from Denmark. And here there’s no help at all for a viper owner.

One shop after another says no to work on my car.

It eats the battery in 5-7 days.
And have gone dead 100 times over the last 2 years.

But now it won’t start. It was not starting good last year. Once it did, it ran okay. But as soon as I park it, 5 min after I may start. Or it don’t.
Could empty the battery trying.

Now it’s just dead. Won’t spark. But turns engine. Fuel pump works.
Fob work on doors.

One click before key on. I unlock doors and the service light flashes.
If I just turn engine it don’t. But some time it blinks then I keep turning engine for long time.

And ideas. !!!

Best regards
Anders.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Anders, I am sorry to hear of your troubles.

While this may be a more complex issue, I have seen similar behavior in several Gen II's...which was battery related. In my experience, one cannot expect the same performance from any lead acid battery if the charge has been severely depleted of multiple times as your post suggests...even if battery has been "rescued" by a more sophisticated charger. I would consider pulling the battery out for testing...and, at the same time, use a digital multimeter to complete an Ignition Off Draw (IOD) test...to document any abnormsl draw as you related. With all electrical equipment off and doors, hood, hatch closed AND after the interior door handle LED's are extinguished, read the milliamps of draw which should not exceed 30-35 milliamps under these conditions. If an abnormal draw is found, one can pull out individual fuses one at a time to try to find the system involved. BEFORE you try this, lower the windows so that you are not locked out of the car !!

I use group 78 AGM batteries in all of our Gen J and II Vioers as they last at least 2 times longer than flooded lead acid batteries. I prefer Odyssey or Interstate.

If you replace the battery, and the trouble persists, please repost.

NOTE OF CAUTION: Do NOT attempt to start a Gen II Viper using a charger plugged into an A/C outlet and said charger has the "boost to start" or "start" option that sends an extra 50 to 200 amps into the system. This will damage your Powertrain Control Module (PCM).

 

[Andrews]

It has a new Bosch battery in it.
And an extra agm 90 amps battery hooked up.
I placed a c-charger on it at all times.
So battery depletion.

Thinking off ripping the security system out, because it’s not a very good one. Just dont know where Its placed.
And almost no cars are stolen in Denmark.
GPS is better at getting it back.

It needs to get the spark back.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Good to know battery status. Have you checked for an abnormal current draw as mentioned above?

You mentioned that the "fuel pump works". Does that mean it turns on, then turns off before you engage the starter? Is your fuel pressure 50+ psi?

While the security system may play a roll, your description is not the classic sequence...though variations do occur.

For obvious reasons, I won't discuss the possible alarm conditions and solutions in an open forum.

 

[Andrews]

I have not yet located the power/current loss. But I will.

It smells off fuel when I try to start a lot. It use to start and then stop. But the last 2 days I’ve worked on the car it just starts and runs forever.

Did not use to do that.

Been having start problems one week after I bought the car.
When it starts it runs. But if I stop at the station to fill it. It won’t. Sometimes it will. So I just leave it running every time I park. Or buy grocery’s.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Glad to hear it is running !!

When you do the IOD test for abnormal current draw, check the voltage at the battery terminals. Be sure that the car has not been started or on a charger for at least 30 minutes before testing. I suggest this because I have seen brand new batteries fail shortly after purchase on more than one occasion. A load test on the isolated battery would be very helpful. I would also point out that short drives are generally not enough to replenish the charge used during startup...especially if RPM was low. This would be a good time to check alternator and its connections.

 

[Andrews]

I was running when I bought it.

Now 2 years after it is not. There is no spark on the plugs. !!!!
And fuel pump just keeps running. !!

But it broke while sitting in the driveway for a month or so.

 

[Steve-Indy]

But you said above "But the last 2 days I’ve worked on the car it just starts and runs forever."

Maybe, we are failing to communicate on such terms as "running". To me, that means that the car starts normally and the engine performs normally.
You just stated that "it just starts and runs forever." By "starts" do you mean that the starter turns the engine but it does not "fire" and remain running on its own after you return key to "run" position? If yes, and the fuel pump continues running while the engine does not, you MAY have a bad PCM.

Before you go much further, swap the ASD relay with the headlight relay ...and check the ASD and PCM fuses...especially fuse#15 in the Power Distribution Center (PDC) under the hood.

 

[Andrews]

Hi again.
What I meant was the fuel pump was running. And never stops if the key is turned before turning engine.

There is no spark still.

Can I get the car to run with out the pcm. ?

As I’m danish, there maybe miss communication.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Car needs PCM to run.

Do you have the 1996 Blue/White Service Manual...or a 1997 Service Manual? If not, they can be found on various internet auction sites such as ebay. You NEED a service manual to guide you or your mechanic through a step by step analysis of the various systems involved with engine starting.

If you can find a shop with a functioning Chrysler DRB III analyzer, it would be an immense help to read codes, evaluate critical sensors, and possibly point to a solution. This has to be done methodically and without causing any harm.

As there are many unanswered questions that I asked above, I would suggest that you keep looking for a professional shop for help.

You might call Kees Mets in the Netherlands as he has worked on many Vipers. 31 62 030 2086

 

[BoremViper97]

Hi again.
What I meant was the fuel pump was running. And never stops if the key is turned before turning engine.

There is no spark still.

Can I get the car to run with out the pcm. ?

As I’m danish, there maybe miss communication.

How do you know there is no spark?
I’m reading this thread still can’t ascertain if this problem is a ‘no start’ or a ‘no crank’ condition.

 

[GTS Dean]

Having just gone through something similar with my '96, I used the Service Manual AND the Powertrain Diagnostics Manual AND my DRB3 AND a multi-tester. The Diagnostics manual flowchart and DRB were invaluable. My issue turned out to be a bad lead in the cam sensor wiring on the front engine harness. I was getting fuel, but no spark because the PCM would not read a cam sensor count to integrate with the crankshaft sensor count. I have had that plug off at least 3 times in the life of the car.

However, the OP is saying that the fuel pump is constantly running, but that was not the case until recently. It could be the relay in the rear by the amp is not working properly. It could be that the pressure regulator on top of the pump module has gone bad - a simple pressure test is easy to perform. The pump could be so weak it isn't building adequate pressure below the regulator. Racetronix in Canada sells OE-style 190, 255 and 340LPH venturi jet pumps that are a direct drop-in, but require the power and ground leads to be switched for opposite polarity.

It could also be the Entry Module (EEM) or the ASD relay. One just has to be methodical about eliminating elements that are NOT problematic.

 

[Andrews]

Well. Here i go again.
It was sent to a shop for 4 months, and they worked on it.

And they gave up. !! Its Denmark. Nobody likes special American cars here.

Still want start and my 4500,- was spent on going through the harness and the pcm. The pcm gets power, but does not give the signal to make spark they said.

Now They asked me to pick up the car, they can’t read the pcm so they give up.

Any way to easy check if it is the anti theft system that does not work anymore or cut in. !!??

 

[Goggles Pizano]

First thing to do is turn the key to the run position and see if the fuel pump runs for a few seconds and report back on what happens.

DO NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE.
DO NOT TRY TO START IT, CRANK IT NOTHING. NO OTHER TESTS NOTHING.

if you want help you need to do exactly what you are told. Nothing more Nothing less. Too many people ask for help because they don't know and then do not follow instructions exactly or start doing something else or additional things.
As mention by Dean, you need to do this in a methodical order.

Sorry to be an ass, but I stopped wasting time on people who don't listen. Tried helping people before and they don't listen then 3 week later come back and say they did exactly what I told them to do the other day and found/fixed the issue.

So they like on cars that are 1000x more complicated??

 

[Goggles Pizano]

If they can't communicate to the PCM, then they damaged it or destroyed it.

You will have to take them to court for that.

Unplug the battery, let it sit for couple hours, reconnect the battery and hope it resets the PCM. If you still can't communicate to it then the PCM is broken or the OBD2 harness to it is bad or the harness powering to the PCM is bad.

 

[GTS Dean]

There is nothing magical, or mystical about the very early Chrysler OBD-2 JTEC engine controller. It is about as simple as they come. If you have the correct manuals and someone with competency in English and fundamental electronic diagnostic skill, this can be solved. Your $4500 should have been adequate for an accurate diagnosis and cure. *IF and WHEN* you properly determine that the JTEC is dead, contact me via Private Message and I can provide you a brand new one with your VIN and Kilometer reading set up.

 

[Andrews]

Hi again.
The pump runs. But don’t stop. Just runs and runs.

What’s next. ..

 

[GTS Dean]

Connect a fuel pressure gauge at the Schrader valve on the intake manifold. It could be a plugged fuel filter in the left rear wheel well. Maybe the regulator is bypassing back to the tank? That would heat the fuel and cause vapor to try and push to the engine compartment. Carefully check the fuel cap to see if there is heat and pressure building in the tank.

However, this does not explain no-spark. Need to check for both crank and cam sensor signal while cranking.

 

[Goggles Pizano]

Connect a fuel pressure gauge at the Schrader valve on the intake manifold. It could be a plugged fuel filter in the left rear wheel well. Maybe the regulator is bypassing back to the tank? That would heat the fuel and cause vapor to try and push to the engine compartment. Carefully check the fuel cap to see if there is heat and pressure building in the tank.

However, this does not explain no-spark. Need to check for both crank and cam sensor signal while cranking.

If the pump continues to run why would you say clogged fuel filter? There is no fuel pressure sensor.

 

[GTS Dean]

If it runs in bypass mode, the pump doesn't know it isn't moving fuel to the engine. A pressure test is easy to eliminate things from consideration.

Why the timer circuit to the pump might not be working is a good question to get to the bottom of.

 

[Goggles Pizano]

If it runs in bypass mode, the pump doesn't know it isn't moving fuel to the engine. A pressure test is easy to eliminate things from consideration.

Why the timer circuit to the pump might not be working is a good question to get to the bottom of.

Understood that but the PCM controls the prime timer. So if it is not stopping the pump and him stating the PCM can't be read anymore, the PCM could be toast.
Yes verify fuel pressure at the rail but if the PCM is toast he's dead anyways.

 

[Viper Specialty]

PCM is damaged. On early Gen-2, PCM design causes FP relay to actuate when in "Dead" condition [IE drivers are floating and uncontrolled], as the relay control is a ground path instead of isolated when the driver is in a floating state.

Contact me for a PCM, that's your problem. I have 1996 in stock, both RT/10 and GTS [NOT the same!]. PCM failed BECAUSE of your battery issue and subsequent charger/jump-start damage accumulation.

No comms, run on pump, no ASD relay self-test, no spark...... dead PCM.

 

[Dhorn35]

NOTE OF CAUTION: Do NOT attempt to start a Gen II Viper using a charger plugged into an A/C outlet and said charger has the "boost to start" or "start" option that sends an extra 50 to 200 amps into the system. This will damage your Powertrain Control Module (PCM).

Thank you Steve for the NOTE OF CAUTION, much appreciated!

Is there a special tender i should be using? I have a 1.25amp 12V battery tender, like the one i attached.